2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[RDB]

Yes I did. It basically assumes Atlanta would have to give him away relatively cheaply (either at TDL or SnT), because they don't want to resign him for max and I utterly disagree with this notion. Contrary to what Trigg is saying, there is also great value to have him in house at TDL, because the buyer gets his RFA status. The quality of players price Mavs would have to pay at TDL is probably much lower than what they would have to give up in FA to make an offer for Collins. With Gallo Atlanta actually has a lot of flexibility with their roster, because it allows them to trade Collins for a piece that is not a PF. Gallo is not guaranteed in his last year, so he is basically expiring next season, if they decide to keep Collins. As I already wrote, it is not true they have any cap problems keeping Collins, even at max contract.

I didn’t really read it that way but I guess it’s open to interpretation.  What I read was if a team thought they could steal him, there would be no motivation to give up assets at TDL.

I’m not sure I understand your second bolded sentence.  If he signs an offer that Atlanta doesn’t want to match and we do a S&T, why do they have the say in how much we give them?
On second thought, I could see a situation where the S&T package is such that they might prefer it over the match. Maybe that’s what you meant.

I’m not sure who said it was true that they have cap problems.  Maybe it was in the article and I missed it.

At the end of the day, I think this is a mute point if they do something at the TDL as I can’t see us being players.

I also looked up the no trade clause in the CBA and this is what it said:

With one exception, no contracts can prohibit or limit a team’s right to trade the player to another team.  The only players who can prohibit or limit their team’s trade rights are those players (1) with 8 years of service and (2) who have already played for 4 or more years with the team that has agreed to the trade prohibition or limitation. 

Note, the CBA allows trade bonuses, and does not treat those bonuses as prohibiting or limiting a team’s trade rights.

Collins would not meet those exceptions.

[Omega_Supreme]

I mean not saying Brunson is at Lowry level now nor ever will be but per 36 minutes:

Lowry, 34 years old: 17.8 ppg, 6.8 apg, 5.8 rpg.

Brunson, 24 years old: 17.7 ppg, 5.4 apg, 4.7 rpg

Even if you're in the Lowry camp, why trade valuable assets for a declining PG who will be an Unrestricted Free Agent this summer? Mavs may not even make it to the 2nd round with Lowery if things go right. Lowry could also walk. Mavs are desperate but not that desperate.

One can say that Brunson is on a path to be better than Lowry. Lowery was a end of the bench player his first few years in the league. Lowry started hitting his stride around age 25 just like we are seeing with Brunson. 

So basically guys on here want to trade a young Kyle Lowry for an old Kyle Lowery smh..No offense to anyone that is an extremely bad idea. 

I wish you would have compared their stats of their first 3 years which blows Lower out the water.

[StepBackJay]

One can say that Brunson is on a path to be better than Lowry. Lowery was a end of the bench player his first few years in the league. Lowry started hitting his stride around age 25 just like we are seeing with Brunson. 

So basically guys on here want to trade a young Kyle Lowry for an old Kyle Lowery smh..No offense to anyone that is an extremely bad idea. 

I wish you would have compared their stats of their first 3 years which blows Lower out the water.

Wow that is quite a projection. If Brunson becomes a 6 time all-star then ya that would fantastic. I don't think he has near the upside of Lowry. And I am in the Brunson fan club, I never left. A month ago most of this board thought he was trash.

[RDB]

Right if I am ATL I don't mess around with Collins, I would just offer him that max contract out of the gate and he will for sure sign it. I think if he makes it to FA he is likely staying with ATL.

If I were Collins and had the opportunity to get away from Trae, I would.  I completely understand why he (and others) were frustrated with the way Trae runs the team.  And I see little chance of him changing.  Put Luka on that team and they are making a run this year.

[omahen]

If he signs an offer that Atlanta doesn’t want to match and we do a S&T, why do they have the say in how much we give them?

Why would we do a SnT if Atlanta doesn't want to match. It makes no sense.

I’m not sure I understand your second bolded sentence.

What I was trying to say was: price to clear cap space for max offer is JRich+THJ. I think the trade price in terms of good players would be lower, if Atlanta would even consider Mavs as a partner. It might be heavier on assets (like picks). But once you are building a contender, player on court value is the only thing that really matters. It is cheaper for Mavs to pay "two picks" than JRich and THJ.

So basically guys on here want to trade a young Kyle Lowry for an old Kyle Lowery smh..No offense to anyone that is an extremely bad idea. 

There is absolutely no guarantee this will really happen. There are always risks. Not to mention Lowry is way better defensively plus all of the other qualities he brings to the table. Depending how you see the Mavs, experienced good vet might have way more value than a young player on a path to become experienced good vet once.

[Omega_Supreme]

Wow that is quite a projection. If Brunson becomes a 6 time all-star then ya that would fantastic. I don't think he has near the upside of Lowry. And I am in the Brunson fan club, I never left. A month ago most of this board thought he was trash.

Lowry never snipped 50/40/90 or got even close to it. If Brunson finishes the season at the pace he is going, he is on a path to be better than Lowry, assuming that he does not plateau or derail.

[StepBackJay]

If I were Collins and had the opportunity to get away from Trae, I would.  I completely understand why he (and others) were frustrated with the way Trae runs the team.  And I see little chance of him changing.  Put Luka on that team and they are making a run this year.

He's restricted so he's not going anywhere unless ATL lets him leave which they aren't going to do.

[StepBackJay]

Lowry never snipped 50/40/90 or got even close to it. If Brunson finishes the season at the pace he is going, he is on a path to be better than Lowry, assuming that he does not plateau or derail.

This is a hot take

[dirkfansince1998]

Lowry never snipped 50/40/90 or got even close to it. If Brunson finishes the season at the pace he is going, he is on a path to be better than Lowry, assuming that he does not plateau or derail.

Take a look at the volume. Brunson takes 2-3 3PA per game. At his best Lowry was shooting 40% from 3 on 7-8 3PA.
Brunsons efficiency is great but he is only taking wide open 3s.His 3-point shooting his overrated. His midrange shooting is underrated.

[RDB]

Why would we do a SnT if Atlanta doesn't want to match. It makes no sense.


What I was trying to say was: price to clear cap space for max offer is JRich+THJ. I think the trade price in terms of good players would be lower, if Atlanta would even consider Mavs as a partner. It might be heavier on assets (like picks). But once you are building a contender, player on court value is the only thing that really matters. It is cheaper for Mavs to pay "two picks" than JRich and THJ.


There is absolutely no guarantee this will really happen. There are always risks. Not to mention Lowry is way better defensively plus all of the other qualities he brings to the table. Depending how you see the Mavs, experienced good vet might have way more value than a young player on a path to become experienced good vet once.

You’re right...dumb comment on my part.  I looked up the rules and once the offer sheet is signed, a S&T is off the table.  You obviously already knew that.

[RDB]

He's restricted so he's not going anywhere unless ATL lets him leave which they aren't going to do.

My last post on the topic and I’m done.

I think I have been really consistent in my comments.  I agree with EVERYONE that getting Collins will be challenging (maybe impossible).  What I DON’T agree with is that everyone on this board knows what is going to happen.  Like KL, I am going to ride this horse until it dies.  I personally believe that there is enough smoke out there to warrant serious consideration.

Lastly, apologies to KL.  I do feel a little bullied 

Now can one of you Nostradamus’s give me the numbers to tonight’s lottery.

[omahen]

Now can one of you Nostradamus’s give me the numbers to tonight’s lottery.

You got this all wrong. You are the one hoping that something with a lottery like possibility will happen. SBJ and I are telling you to go for a more realistic target  

For me it is basically simple. Even if I forget the RFA status, I would not really trade JRich and THJ for Collins. I think team doesn't really get better this way. If I put into account all of the risks associated with the RFA status, it is a complete no brainer for me. Things would of course change, if both guys doesn't want to resign with Mavs. Than Mavs basically have little other options but throw max at someone. But this is again a scenario I don't see as a positive development for Mavs

[RDB]

You got this all wrong. You are the one hoping that something with a lottery like possibility will happen. SBJ and I are telling you to go for a more realistic target  

For me it is basically simple. Even if I forget the RFA status, I would not really trade JRich and THJ for Collins. I think team doesn't really get better this way. If I put into account all of the risks associated with the RFA status, it is a complete no brainer for me. Things would of course change, if both guys doesn't want to resign with Mavs. Than Mavs basically have little other options but throw max at someone. But this is again a scenario I don't see as a positive development for Mavs

You have no idea what the odds are and that’s my point.  Everything with you is an cut & dry.  And what do you care what I am hoping for.  My eyes are clear as to the long odds.

At the end of the day I didn’t realize you were only trying to help me...much appreciated.  Why don’t you just tell me who I should want and give me some odds so I don’t get too unrealistic.  If not, will you at least give me the same permission that you gave a certain poster earlier to take my own positions.

Forgive me if I sound short (it is intentional).  I have been even keeled until the last few posts but you seem to have taken a more Holier-than-thou attitude.

[omahen]

You have no idea what the odds are and that’s my point.  Everything with you is an cut & dry.  And what do you care what I am hoping for.  My eyes are clear as to the long odds.

At the end of the day I didn’t realize you were only trying to help me...much appreciated.  Why don’t you just tell me who I should want and give me some odds so I don’t get too unrealistic.  If not, will you at least give me the same permission that you gave a certain poster earlier to take my own positions.

Forgive me if I sound short (it is intentional).  I have been even keeled until the last few posts but you seem to have taken a more Holier-than-thou attitude.

It was meant to be a joke, you see a smily face next to it?

[omahen]

Other than that I don't understand why you are feeling bullied. All I have done is present a ton of arguments why I think there is a very small chance Collins could be had in the summer. Your reply to all the arguments is basicaly - "but there is a chance". So sorry, if the weight of arguments is too much for you.

[KillerLeft]

It was meant to be a joke, you see a smily face next to it?

Yeah, except that’s not what that smiley face means. That smiley face is a tool of condescension, as if to say “I’m smart, you’re stupid and I’m laughing in your face about the stupid thing you just wrote.” I think that’s pretty universally understood, and I think you know that.

[loki]

How about Porzingis for Collins in the offseason? Sign Richaun Holmes and I think you've got a pretty well-rounded big rotation. Collins/Kleber at the 4 and Holmes/WCS at the 5. You've got a shooter and a roll man at all times, and they are a lot less vulnerable in PNR defense.

[RDB]

Other than that I don't understand why you are feeling bullied. All I have done is present a ton of arguments why I think there is a very small chance Collins could be had in the summer. Your reply to all the arguments is basicaly - "but there is a chance". So sorry, if the weight of arguments is too much for you.

I just don’t know what to say to this comment.  Allow me to retort...If by your logic my only argument has been “but there’s a chance”, that means that your argument is “there is no chance”.  Like you, I have given many arguments why I believe there is smoke and it is worth exploring.  And the weight of your arguments is not too much for me so don’t be a dick.

https://media.giphy.com/media/copwHGtEBC2Yg/giphy.gif

[ItsGoTime]

Of course, totally agree. They will either trade him or match anything. Hence, there is really no possibility to get him in the summer. This is what I am claiming all the time. That also doesn't mean he will be available for cheap at TDL. Plenty of teams would gladly trade for him. 

And don't forget - Collins has to accept the offer sheet to squeeze Atlanta. It is also possible they just sign new (max) contract as soon as FA opens. Same as Mavs did with KP. This way they avoid those unwanted no trade clauses you are mentioning. If I am not wrong, they can offer him more (additional year) than other teams can with an offer sheet.

I think his value goes down if they trade him in the offseason. That would mean that they aren't willing to pay him what he's being offered, which then becomes a point of weakness.

As far as what we did with KP, there is a week before FA starts where he can have conversations with other teams that can present this option to him as a contract. He then says, YA, I'll take that contract instead of what ATL is offering even if it's a max, cause a no trade clause is an even better contract. ATL then has that conundrum if they were only signing him to trade him later. If not, then all is good anyway and they match the maxed out no trade clause contract.

[omahen]

Yeah, except that’s not what that smiley face means. That smiley face is a tool of condescension, as if to say “I’m smart, you’re stupid and I’m laughing in your face about the stupid thing you just wrote.” I think that’s pretty universally understood, and I think you know that.

Yeah, if I would put it after his statement, which I didn't. I put it after mine, clearly indicating I am not serious about it. So don't make things up...

https://emojipedia.org/grinning-face/

It was you and RDB that brought this on a personal level by calling me a bully, dick and similar. It is me who is ending it.