I know we're not winning the chip this year...

[ItsGoTime]

The negative I always hear is: You will crush his confidence, because he´s clueless about what he is doing out there and the team will lose games.

The counter argument would be: How can you train for something, you don´t know. Why not throw a rookie out there for ten (meaningless) games and let him actually FEEL real NBA games. Let him get a feel for what it´s like to have Westbrook coming at you at 100mph and Irving doing five crossovers before pulling up in your face. He can´t learn that from practice. At least that way he goes into the gym with the knowledge how far he has to come. Maybe some rookies just are fast learners. He immediately catches on, while he´s still full of youthful self-confidence. Then you just stick with him for 10 rotational MPG. He´s motivated. He´s engaged. He works harder in practice.

Ya, these are the two biggest sticking points for sure. Issue is, we have no way of knowing how these guys learn and what the effects are with playing them.

They could lose that youthful self confidence because they see no way they can ever get close to stopping that 100 mph Westbrook drive. On the flip side, they can lose their youthful self confidence by never getting into a game and always being beat down with having to earn their minutes.

All different types out there and you have to believe that RC will not get it right with every one of the players (you also have to believe he will as well). Which ones...we'll never know in all honesty.

[fifteenth]

First, nice response!

I just don´t accept the idea that the Heat or Mavs develop players in a similar way, cause they clearly are not.

That's fine. I don't have a dog in that fight. I don't know enough.

Yes I´d generally be in favour of the approach "it´s your spot to lose"-concept rather than the "it´s your spot to earn"-concept for rookies, especially when considering the other options are guys like Iwundu.

Why should they be given that spot over Josh Green, who I just invested a 18th pick in and who I control for the next nine years!

I should back my own talent evaluation, asset management and have a huge interest in developing him first and foremost.  

I don't think "it's your spot to lose" vs "it's your spot to earn" even accurately characterizes the reality. It's more like "we're committed to helping you become the best player you can be, and the process is going to include game time and practice." The, rotation spots are fluid based on a combination of team and individual needs. Green MIGHT have been given even more development attention than Iwundu, but that's a total guess. It would have been great if Iwundu could have developed as well. 

Why not throw a rookie out there for ten (meaningless) games and let him actually FEEL real NBA games.

This was done with Green. He played a good bit at the beginning of the season. No one told me, so this is a guess too, but it appears that Green got minutes early in the season, the coaching staff decided he needed some further development via practice and watching from the bench, and he was taken out of the every day rotation. Fast forward, and he returns to the rotation looking comfortable and contributing to winning. You've used Green as an addition to your long time argument against the Mavs player development methods, when in fact, Green is evidence in the other direction.

The Mavs approach is basically you practice, practice, practice. You only get minutes, when something extraordinary happens. You have no natural way to break into the rotation, when Carlisle is in WIN NOW mode. I don´t feel that "practice till you bleed"-approach to be very motivating, but maybe that´s just me and Allen Iverson. There are so many different personalities, too.   

I just don't think this is true. You're making a caricature of the Mavs methods in order to argue against them. 

Aren´t some people always excusing Porzingis for not trying on defense, because Luka is not getting him the ball. Well who is getting the rookies the ball? 

I dont' see people excuse KP. Mostly they either believe he can learn to fit better or want to trade him. And everyone wishes his defense was as good as it was last year. Regarding getting Green the ball, I see him receiving the ball from multiple folks and fitting really well into the offense at the moment. 

People always mention DFS/Brunson as successful long-term projects, when their whole development was happening in tanking/rebuilding years and consisted exactly of the regular playing time/rotational minutes.

DFS played 20 MPG for 81 games in his rookie season.

It really doesn't make sense to you that there was more room for DFS to get minutes than for Green because we're actually trying to win now? And again, Green is bad for your argument. He's contributing to a playoff team. Brunson and Luka both got minutes on teams that were actually trying to win. So they don't support your argument at all. They're just examples of two rookies that were more ready for playing time.

Don´t give me the slow development stuff either. Josh Howard is the last rookie to sign an extension here and he probably has kids that are draft eligible.

I think this has way more to do with the Mavs failure in the draft. And I'm with you there. There are signs of improvment in that area with Luka, Brunson, and Green. It remains to be seen what Hinton, Bey and Terry will become. I'm not going to call them failures yet because it's too soon.

[mavsluvr]

This was done with Green. He played a good bit at the beginning of the season. No one told me, so this is a guess too, but it appears that Green got minutes early in the season, the coaching staff decided he needed some further development via practice and watching from the bench, and he was taken out of the every day rotation. Fast forward, and he returns to the rotation looking comfortable and contributing to winning

I think this describes the situation perfectly. 

It is easy to forget at this point how rough Green looked until recently. I would go so far as to say that, far from the coaches withholding playing time because he was a rookie, the main reason he GOT those minutes in the first place was because he was a rookie that they were prioritizing developing.

[Mavs2021]

First, nice response!




That's fine. I don't have a dog in that fight. I don't know enough.




I don't think "it's your spot to lose" vs "it's your spot to earn" even accurately characterizes the reality. It's more like "we're committed to helping you become the best player you can be, and the process is going to include game time and practice." The, rotation spots are fluid based on a combination of team and individual needs. Green MIGHT have been given even more development attention than Iwundu, but that's a total guess. It would have been great if Iwundu could have developed as well. 


This was done with Green. He played a good bit at the beginning of the season. No one told me, so this is a guess too, but it appears that Green got minutes early in the season, the coaching staff decided he needed some further development via practice and watching from the bench, and he was taken out of the every day rotation. Fast forward, and he returns to the rotation looking comfortable and contributing to winning. You've used Green as an addition to your long time argument against the Mavs player development methods, when in fact, Green is evidence in the other direction.


I just don't think this is true. You're making a caricature of the Mavs methods in order to argue against them. 





I dont' see people excuse KP. Mostly they either believe he can learn to fit better or want to trade him. And everyone wishes his defense was as good as it was last year. Regarding getting Green the ball, I see him receiving the ball from multiple folks and fitting really well into the offense at the moment. 


It really doesn't make sense to you that there was more room for DFS to get minutes than for Green because we're actually trying to win now? And again, Green is bad for your argument. He's contributing to a playoff team. Brunson and Luka both got minutes on teams that were actually trying to win. So they don't support your argument at all. They're just examples of two rookies that were more ready for playing time.

Were they more ready or were they just given more time to develop in game? Dorian shot 37% from the field and 29% from three in his rookie season, for the whole year and in 81 games. You can´t tell me that he was more ready or that Carlisle would have tolerated it from a rookie in a WIN NOW situation. Bit different if Iwundu and Johnson do it.   

Of course the team tanking is a legit argument. At the same time, you can´t use it as an example of the successful Carlisle/Mavs standard (rookie development) method we have grown accustomed to over the last decade, when their cases are completely different. They were successful, when they tried the regular consistent minutes approach.

And my views on rookies minutes are far more nuanced and I have explained them many times. When the Pistons roll out a 10 man rotation with an average age of 23 and NBA experience of 800 games total, then there simply have to be 10 minutes for Tyler Bey. The Pistons play 240 minutes of inexperienced players and we are not good enough to incorporate Bey instead of Melli for 10 minutes. Then it´s not the rookie that´s the problem, it´s the overall quality of the roster AND the coaching.

There are so many games every regular season you can use rookies. The Thunder started five rookies against us and beat us. How can Carlisle sit there and not send the messages to the veterans at halftime that this is not acceptable? Why doesn´t he say: Okay you guys don´t fancy it tonight. Bey, Green, Hinton you start the 2nd half. It´s that lack of accountability that can also be detrimental to the team.

[fifteenth]

Were they more ready or were they just given more time to develop in game? Dorian shot 37% from the field and 29% from three in his rookie season, for the whole year and in 81 games. You can´t tell me that he was more ready or that Carlisle would have tolerated it from a rookie in a WIN NOW situation. Bit different if Iwundu and Johnson do it.   

You really don't think Luka and Brunson were more ready than our current crop of rookies? And I didn't say that DFS was more ready than Green. I asked a question that was meant to suggest that DFS got minutes because we weren't trying to win. Iwundu and Johnson were given a chance to contribute and then shipped off when they didn't contribute much to winning.

At the same time, you can´t use it as an example of the successful Carlisle/Mavs standard (rookie development) method

Not sure we agree enough to even hash this out. It sounds like you're saying that we can't use success stories as examples of success. If I can't use success stories as examples of success then I'm wasting my time jumping in to this conversation.

And if we're talking about the current roster, Powell, DFS, Maxi, Luka, Brunson and Green are all developmental success stories. Green could flip the other direction, of course, and Hinton, Terry and Bey are incompletes. 

Feel free to bring up all the past failures, and I may very well agree with you. But if you're wanting to use any of Powell, DFS, Maxi, Luka, Brunson or Green in your ongoing argument that the Mavs don't develop players well, then I'm out.