I know we're not winning the chip this year...

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Ah the beauty of rookies and the Mavs fanbase tunnel vision. Of course the Mavs handle all rookies correctly.

Two outcomes:

Green plays and sucks, then Carlisle was/is justified in his opinion to not play him.

Green plays and rocks, then Carlisle developed him properly and picked the correct moment to unleash him.

So Carlisle was correct either way.

Of course it´s impossible to prove that Green could have contributed in a positive manner earlier or better than another rotational player without him actually playing. That he would be much further in his development etc. etc.

Green plays like garbage, showing that the Mavs can't develop young players.

Or

Green plays well, showing the Mavs should have been playing him all along and have been botching everything

So Carlisle is wrong either way.

I think the development of Brunson from a 2nd rounder into a legit 6th man of the year candidate and DoDo from Undrafted into a legit starting NBA 3D wing on a contending team show that the derision some have towards Mavs player development has been way overblown.  But that's not how we do things, is it?      We spend 1,000,000,0000 words talkling about Dwight Powells contract for every 1 word on DoDo's contract, which is probably one of the Top 5 non-rookie scale contracts in the NBA.

[DanSchwartzgan]

This scenario reminds me of another rookie brought along slowly but valuable late in the season once upon a time.  I just can't put my finger on who/when.
 

Middleton is an example.  13 minutes total as a rookie prior to the all-star break.  20 minutes a night after the break (17 in March and 24 in April).  BTW, he couldn't hit an outside shot as a rookie either (.311 on three's and .438 from the field), but the team was Plus in his floor time his rookie year at age 21.  He didn't really become average at PER or WS until his 3rd year.

[Mavs2021]

The 2 best franchises in the league at player development are Miami and Denver, imho.   RJ Hampton was getting virtually no minutes before Denver threw him in the Gordon trade and Precious Achiuwa has played around 2 mpg in his last 4 games.  He only plays now when Spoelstra runs out of warm bodies because Miami has no other choice with injury and COVID issues.   Smart organizations just dont throw underdeveloped players out there just because.  Green is getting more play now because he's gradually shown he can handle it.

The Heat approach is completely different to the Mavs approach.

Spoelstra gave Achiuwa bigger minutes early, which is basically the exact opposite approach. Achiuwa played in the first 20 games and never less than 10 minutes.

Spoelstra said I trust you. Here is your spot in the rotation. It is your spot to lose. Show me what you got at this level. Show me whether you are ready or not. Show me how quickly you can figure this level out. 

Also Achiuwa has played more minutes than all Mavs picks combined. Over 300 more minutes. That´s nearly seven full NBA games worth of experience.

Adebayo was very similar. He played 69 of 82 games his rookie season. He played 10+ minutes in 60 of those games. Consistent minutes in a specified rotational role, not some infrequent "I´m mad at the veteran", "garbage" and "50% of the roster has COVID" minutes.

Also Denver has/had four rookies this season. I won´t count Campazzo/Cancar, although Cancar is basically the same age as Tyler Bey.

Nnaji and Hampton have appeared in 65 out of a possible 91 Denver games for a total of 596 minutes*.

Green, Bey and Terry have appeared in 58 out of a possible 198 games for a total of 469 minutes.

*Besides the fact that Hampton has a year of pro experience overseas and has been balling for the Magic lately, so it´s questionable how "not ready" he truly was.  Recently 11 PPG / 5 RPG / 3.5 APG shooting 42/33/78. I´d call that a good day for Josh Richardson. 

Nobody plays their rookies more infrequently than the Mavs. [b]It´s a fact. [/b]

Green is 36th in total minutes. Hinton, Bey and Terry are 73rd, 74th and 76th in total minutes out of 90 used rookies. ( I don´t even know how many of the rookies on the other teams were injured or got COVID. Mavs rookies had nearly 100% eligibility, depending on the reasons behind Terry´s absence)

[Mavs2021]

Green plays like garbage, showing that the Mavs can't develop young players.

Or

Green plays well, showing the Mavs should have been playing him all along and have been botching everything

So Carlisle is wrong either way.

I think the development of Brunson from a 2nd rounder into a legit 6th man of the year candidate and DoDo from Undrafted into a legit starting NBA 3D wing on a contending team show that the derision some have towards Mavs player development has been way overblown.  But that's not how we do things, is it?      We spend 1,000,000,0000 words talkling about Dwight Powells contract for every 1 word on DoDo's contract, which is probably one of the Top 5 non-rookie scale contracts in the NBA.

So it can´t be proven either way, but you still all agree that Carlisle developed Green correctly. Fandom, such a beautiful and maddening concept.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Spoelstra said I trust you. Here is your spot in the rotation. It is your spot to lose. Show me what you got at this level. Show me whether you are ready or not. Show me how quickly you can figure this level out. 

And the end result is Precious has badly regressed as the season has gone along, to the point that Spoelstra believes he is basically unplayable now.   Meanwhile Green is now getting crunchtime minutes in the biggest regular season games of the year.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The Heat approach is completely different to the Mavs approach.

Spoelstra gave Achiuwa bigger minutes early, which is basically the exact opposite approach. Achiuwa played in the first 20 games and never less than 10 minutes.

Spoelstra said I trust you. Here is your spot in the rotation. It is your spot to lose. Show me what you got at this level. Show me whether you are ready or not. Show me how quickly you can figure this level out. 

Also Achiuwa has played more minutes than all Mavs picks combined. Over 300 more minutes. That´s nearly seven full NBA games worth of experience.

Achiuwa minutes per game in March/April/May:  9.6/11/2.8

Green minutes per game in March/April/May:  6.8/9.3/13.3

This isn't directed at 21, but I think we might have a more nuanced conversation if we made rookie PT comparisons strictly for teams over .500.  I'm too lazy to look it up, but besides Achiuwa, I can think of Bane, Prichard, Quickley, Maxey and Flynn as non-lottery rookies contributing to .500+ teams.  All but Maxey are at least a year or more older than Green.  Green is playing more minutes in May than all but Quickley and Prichard.  Green at 13.3 compares well to Bane at 12.8, Maxey at 12.0, Flynn at 3.8 and Achiuwa at 2.8.

[ItsGoTime]

Achiuwa minutes per game in March/April/May:  9.6/11/2.8

Green minutes per game in March/April/May:  6.8/9.3/13.3

This isn't directed at 21, but I think we might have a more nuanced conversation if we made rookie PT comparisons strictly for teams over .500.  I'm too lazy to look it up, but besides Achiuwa, I can think of Bane, Prichard, Quickley, Maxey and Flynn as non-lottery rookies contributing to .500+ teams.  All but Maxey are at least a year or more older than Green.  Green is playing more minutes in May than all but Quickley and Prichard.  Green at 13.3 compares well to Bane at 12.8, Maxey at 12.0, Flynn at 3.8 and Achiuwa at 2.8.

I think an important aspect of what 21 is saying is the total minutes they’re getting too. That shows (minus unavailability) how many DNP-CD’s these guys got. If Green averaged that many minutes in every single game he was available, one has to imagine how much further along he is because of it. 


We’ve talked about the FO not knowing how to build around Luka without seeing what he does on the court, I think this is a similar argument.

[Mavs2021]

And the end result is Precious has badly regressed as the season has gone along, to the point that Spoelstra believes he is basically unplayable now.   Meanwhile Green is now getting crunchtime minutes in the biggest regular season games of the year.

Didn´t you just say the Heat and Mavs develop players the same CORRECT way? Now I have proven you wrong on their similar approaches, you change your tune and say the Heat development is sh*t.

The Heat franchise that had rookie Tyler Herro, sophomore Duncan Robinson, 3rd year player Bam Adebayo being starters on an NBA finals team with rookie Kendrick Nunn as the 6th man (after starting every regular season game in his rookie season).

Meanwhile the Mavs can barely find a rookie that has survived his first contract and haven´t won a play-off series in 10 years.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I think an important aspect of what 21 is saying is the total minutes they’re getting too. That shows (minus unavailability) how many DNP-CD’s these guys got. If Green averaged that many minutes in every single game he was available, one has to imagine how much further along he is because of it. 


We’ve talked about the FO not knowing how to build around Luka without seeing what he does on the court, I think this is a similar argument.

So, what is the best way of knowing?  Early season games where you throw a 20 year old into the deep end without a training camp or Summer League.  Or, meaningful minutes late in the season?  Is the finish line for a rookie total minutes played or impact by season’s end?

[ItsGoTime]

So, what is the best way of knowing?  Early season games where you throw a 20 year old into the deep end without a training camp or Summer League.  Or, meaningful minutes late in the season?  Is the finish line for a rookie total minutes played or impact by season’s end?

Can’t know for sure about anything. I just remember the time when I discovered the power of watching yourself on video. Being able to see the mistakes you make in a game while remembering the thought process and emotions you had at the time helped me change quite a few things in my play. The more moments I could capture those mistakes, the more I could make adjustments.


I will say, no single approach us “the” best approach. Everyone has a different learning style so what works best for one player won’t necessarily work for another, which is a large wrench in this whole thing and is why I have a hard time taking a side in it.

[fifteenth]

Spoelstra gave Achiuwa bigger minutes early, which is basically the exact opposite approach

Brunson

M12, your mind has been made up for years, so you'll cherry pick even if you don't know you're doing it

[fifteenth]

one has to imagine how much further along he is because of it. 

That's the part that the forum has always disagreed on, and for good reason. Some think that development only happens in the game. I think important development happens outside of the games and that the "just throw them in there" approach can actually have a negative impact, both on the young player and team play.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Brunson

M12, your mind has been made up for years, so you'll cherry pick even if you don't know you're doing it

Right.  The "Every thing about the Mavs and the MBT sucks and everything they do is wrong" just another form of homerism.  It's not an alternative to homerism.   It's just another flavor of being completely myopic and obsessive about your team.

[fifteenth]

The Heat franchise that had rookie Tyler Herro, sophomore Duncan Robinson, 3rd year player Bam Adebayo being starters on an NBA finals team with rookie Kendrick Nunn as the 6th man (after starting every regular season game in his rookie season).

Meanwhile the Mavs can barely find a rookie that has survived his first contract and haven´t won a play-off series in 10 years.

Those players represent a better return on their draft choices than the Mavs so far, for sure. Although we have two 3rd year players who have contributed nicely since their rookies years. But that's not as much as Miami's kids have accomplished for sure. But that doesn't prove your point about development.

[ItsGoTime]

That's the part that the forum has always disagreed on, and for good reason. Some think that development only happens in the game. I think important development happens outside of the games and that the "just throw them in there" approach can actually have a negative impact, both on the young player and team play.

I think it happens differently for different players. Some people only learn from experience (I’m that type of learner) some have the ability to be told what to do and can do it (I’m very jealous of these people). So both sides sre probably correct, for different players.

[fifteenth]

Didn´t you just say the Heat and Mavs develop players the same CORRECT way? Now I have proven you wrong on their similar approaches, you change your tune and say the Heat development is sh*t.

He didn't say anything so conclusive as that. Who has argued that you should only bring the player along slowly or only play them a lot early? 

You say to throw them all into the fire. Some others argue for more nuanced approaches that have to do with evaluating where the player is at and what they neeed.

[dynamicalVoid]

Justifying not playing Green more earlier in the season because we didnt want to lose games...

LOL come on

[fifteenth]

I think it happens differently for different players. Some people only learn from experience (I’m that type of learner) some have the ability to be told what to do and can do it

I like what you're saying in the thread, but the above sentence is missing something. The choices aren't "play them in the game" or "tell them what to do". 

And here's the crux of what has been argued about for years...

They actually do stuff in practice. They don't have the players sit in a circle and tell them things. They work on their games. They work a lot, they work hard, and hopefully they work smart. Practice actually matters.

[ItsGoTime]

I like what you're saying in the thread, but the above sentence is missing something. The choices aren't "play them in the game" or "tell them what to do". 

And here's the crux of what has been argued about for years...

They actually do stuff in practice. They don't have the players sit in a circle and tell them things. They work on their games. They work a lot, they work hard, and hopefully they work smart. Practice actually matters.

Absolutely, repetition is the base of all learning. However, how invested a person is in that repetitive motion is a factor in learning. 


If, as an experience learner, I don’t see it for myself and am just being told to trust the person telling me my mistakes, there is a difference in my buy-in on that mistake. That could change my mindset to the repetition I am practicing. 

If I think the problem lies somewhere else in my game, then I begrudgingly go through the motions of that repetition all the while thinking “when are we gonna get to the root of the problem”. 

Also, there are different types of people (teachers/coaches) that just click with you. You can see that RC just clicks with Powell. Those types of “matches” will always get the most out of eachother.

[Mavs2021]

He didn't say anything so conclusive as that. Who has argued that you should only bring the player along slowly or only play them a lot early? 

You say to throw them all into the fire. Some others argue for more nuanced approaches that have to do with evaluating where the player is at and what they neeed.

I think there are benefits to both ideas and concept. I just don´t accept the idea that the Heat or Mavs develop players in a similar way, cause they clearly are not.

Yes I´d generally be in favour of the approach "it´s your spot to lose"-concept rather than the "it´s your spot to earn"-concept for rookies, especially when considering the other options are guys like Iwundu.

Why should they be given that spot over Josh Green, who I just invested a 18th pick in and who I control for the next nine years!

I should back my own talent evaluation, asset management and have a huge interest in developing him first and foremost.  

The negative I always hear is: You will crush his confidence, because he´s clueless about what he is doing out there and the team will lose games.

The counter argument would be: How can you train for something, you don´t know. Why not throw a rookie out there for ten (meaningless) games and let him actually FEEL real NBA games. Let him get a feel for what it´s like to have Westbrook coming at you at 100mph and Irving doing five crossovers before pulling up in your face. He can´t learn that from practice. At least that way he goes into the gym with the knowledge how far he has to come. Maybe some rookies just are fast learners. He immediately catches on, while he´s still full of youthful self-confidence. Then you just stick with him for 10 rotational MPG. He´s motivated. He´s engaged. He works harder in practice.

The Mavs approach is basically you practice, practice, practice. You only get minutes, when something extraordinary happens. You have no natural way to break into the rotation, when Carlisle is in WIN NOW mode. I don´t feel that "practice till you bleed"-approach to be very motivating, but maybe that´s just me and Allen Iverson. There are so many different personalities, too.   

Aren´t some people always excusing Porzingis for not trying on defense, because Luka is not getting him the ball. Well who is getting the rookies the ball? 

People always mention DFS/Brunson as successful long-term projects, when their whole development was happening in tanking/rebuilding years and consisted exactly of the regular playing time/rotational minutes.

DFS played 20 MPG for 81 games in his rookie season.
Brunson played 22 MPG for 73 games in his rookie season.

Don´t give me the slow development stuff either. Josh Howard is the last rookie to sign an extension here and he probably has kids that are draft eligible.