GAME 36: DAL (19-17) @ OKC (16-21) | 108-115 loss

[Jason Terry]

100% THIS.

RC has clearly played rookies, there should be zero debate on that. But there is a long history of players across the board (though young ones especially) that for whatever reason do not mesh with RC. And we have seen some of those players really blossom outside of the confines of RC's personality (and we have seen some really suck too). 

Again, I think RC is a good coach, I just do not believe he is the right coach for this set of players and situation.

NOTE: Just my current take that I reserve the right to change in a few months and to be dead wrong on.

Names of players that don’t mesh with Rick? None we drafted. None that go on to do great things

Rondo doesn’t count. Odom was on drugs. Anderson and Smith Jr were busts and he probably still got the best out of them. Roby was always going to be a late bloomer. Obviously Luka and Brunson are huge successes and i guess he gets some credit for their success. Several cases of guys reviving their careers here before they were out of the league(Delonte, Felton, Mayo) off the top of my head.

Edit: Derek Fisher but he was already washed up

[Kammrath]

Names of players that don’t mesh with Rick?

It is very possible I am overstating my case as I try to consolidate my impressions over the last decade plus with RC as coach. One of the players I was thinking of in particular was Crowder for whatever reason. 

As I said in the chat last night:

Something has been very wrong for most of the last decade....it is either talent acquisition (GM) or talent development (coach)....I think it is more of the coach. But like I said, I could be dead wrong.

[cow]

Names of players that don’t mesh with Rick? None we drafted. None that go on to do great things

Rondo doesn’t count. Odom was on drugs. Anderson and Smith Jr were busts and he probably still got the best out of them. Roby was always going to be a late bloomer. Obviously Luka and Brunson are huge successes and i guess he gets some credit for their success. Several cases of guys reviving their careers here before they were out of the league(Delonte, Felton, Mayo) off the top of my head.

Edit: Derek Fisher but he was already washed up

I want names but certain names don't count?  lol (Rondo was a huge factor in the Lakers getting a chip last year).

Wright and Collison.  He and Kidd also clashed before Rick loosened his grip and let one of the greatest PG to ever breath do his thing.

I don't put the blame on Carlisle alone as Donnie and Mark often give him a tough hand to play but we also shouldn't act like Rick is a sacred cow.

[KillerLeft]

That was the goal and they failed.  You could even make an argument for Green being buried behind the strength of our rotation but not for Bey.  Yet Green got minutes, had two terrible offensive possessions and got yanked and Bey got the DNP.   How's the rotation ahead of Bey playing?  It's also going to be difficult to tell which players give you the best chance to win if you don't play them.  We can chicken and egg this conversation forever, I guess.

I don’t disagree that they failed, and I don’t disagree that it was a sad, disgraceful failure.

I don’t disagree that the door is cracked open MOST for Bey out of all the rookies.

What I can’t endorse is this notion that because the vets fall flat on any given night, that must mean the rookies “couldn’t have been worse.” That’s a false equivalency. 

Regardless of how pointless we think this season has been, or just specifically a game for which Luka/KP are unavailable, the team, coach and organization are trying to win as many games as possible.

[Jason Terry]

It is very possible I am overstating my case as I try to consolidate my impressions over the last decade plus with RC as coach. One of the players I was thinking of in particular was Crowder for whatever reason. 

As I said in the chat last night:

Something has been very wrong for most of the last decade....it is either talent acquisition (GM) or talent development (coach)....I think it is more of the coach. But like I said, I could be dead wrong.

I agree with you. It does feel off and maybe Rick should go. I think the whole decade long struggle thing can be explained away as: we tried to put the best product on the court every single season for Dirk at the expense of long term asset management. That’s probably the blame of the entire MBT(and even Dirk too). I would personally rather it played out like it did than see Dirk in another uniform

[cow]

I don’t disagree that they failed, and I don’t disagree that it was a sad, disgraceful failure.

I don’t disagree that the door is cracked open MOST for Bey out of all the rookies.

What I can’t endorse is this notion that because the vets fall flat on any given night, that must mean the rookies “couldn’t have been worse.” That’s a false equivalency. 

Regardless of how pointless we think this season has been, or just specifically a game for which Luka/KP are unavailable, the team, coach and organization are trying to win as many games as possible.

The point is that it is a squandered opportunity.  The fact of the matter is that we don't know if the rookies are worse or better than the vets as they aren't given the opportunity.  It's also not like these vets had an off game.  The norm for Powell, Johnson, WCS and Boban is the performances they turned in last night.

[Jason Terry]

I want names but certain names don't count?  lol (Rondo was a huge factor in the Lakers getting a chip last year).

Wright and Collison.  He and Kidd also clashed before Rick loosened his grip and let one of the greatest PG to ever breath do his thing.

I don't put the blame on Carlisle alone as Donnie and Mark often give him a tough hand to play but we also shouldn't act like Rick is a sacred cow.

You did it. I was genuinely curious and looking for names(i knew there were more).

Kidd won us a title. I don’t expect things to be constant hunky dory, but we accomplished the goal 

Just looked at Collison’s numbers and in his one year here he was at almost his exact career averages. I don’t remember what happened back then. I’ll consider that one a push 

Rondo and Wright is the true list it seems. And there’s still time for Wright to turn back into nothing..........I think Kam hit on the biggest mistake though in Crowder. RC should’ve appealed to whatever was needed to keep him happy(it’s not like he was bad here)........so not that many names over a 13 year period 

I put Crowder, Powell and Aminu on Donnie as guys we should’ve kept and turned into organizational soldiers

[BasketballJones41]

I’m still in the pro Rick column. Even though I have concerns about him. I get not wanting to play rookies if they’re not earning it but that Philosophy kind of falls apart when every year he latches on to some random veterans that make a tremendous amount of dumb mistakes. Stuff that he would absolutely bench a rookie for. But for some reason he’s willing to put up with copious amounts of stupidity from James Johnson. But every coach has flaws. I don’t think it’s over reactionary to point out that Rick isn’t excluded from that. None of that means that he’s not still a top five coach in the game. 

And for the record I can’t understand how anybody could still possibly blame Rick for the Rondo situation. Rondo is a giant douche. Always has been and always will be. Same with Kidd. All‘s well that ends well since he helped us win the title but I don’t think I can blame Rick for their issues either. Kidd always had a touch of bitch in him.

[KillerLeft]

The fact of the matter is that we don't know if the rookies are worse or better than the vets

It’s a fact that WE don’t know. WE aren’t required to know. We’re simply bored with some of the vets and disappointed with the team, hoping for changes. I think the coaches DO know who’s ready and who’s not. That’s what I believe the point is.

[StepBackJay]

I don't know if I trust the coaches who thought it was a good idea to sit Luka and KP against OKC.

[cow]

You did it. I was genuinely curious and looking for names(i knew there were more).

Kidd won us a title. I don’t expect things to be constant hunky dory, but we accomplished the goal 

Just looked at Collison’s numbers and in his one year here he was at almost his exact career averages. I don’t remember what happened back then. I’ll consider that one a push 

Rondo and Wright is the true list it seems. And there’s still time for Wright to turn back into nothing..........I think Kam hit on the biggest mistake though in Crowder. RC should’ve appealed to whatever was needed to keep him happy(it’s not like he was bad here)........so not that many names over a 13 year period 

I put Crowder, Powell and Aminu on Donnie as guys we should’ve kept and turned into organizational soldiers

You can dismiss all the examples you want, but I think that over simplifies the problem and my list is going to be much longer than yours.

And just so I'm not just dumping on Rick, he also has a lot of success stories, Wright (Brandon), Powell, Mahinmi, Aminu, DFS, Maxi and probably a slew of others players I'm forgetting.  

I think there is fault to go around with Cuban's impatience, Donnie's terrible drafting, the MBT never being able to attract marque talent (Cuban has recently written this off as "we've never had cap space" combined with "we were a terrible team"...clock's ticking now, Mark), Carlisle's quirks with giving newly acquired players minutes and what really appears to be a coach and front office that are out of sync.  

I talk a lot from the gut so it's all worthless, but my feelings on Carlisle really haven't changed since Larry Brown replaced him with Detroit.  His chip here elevated his status nationally.  He's a great basketball mind but he's not the person I'd pick to rebuild around.  I also do kind of think some of the modern NBA has passed him by as far as player relationships go.

[KillerLeft]

I don't know if I trust the coaches who thought it was a good idea to sit Luka and KP against OKC.

Seems like you’re assuming this was a conscious choice, based on some coach-held belief that they could win the game without those guys. I don’t know if I trust that all of the assumptions made there are correct. 

For all we know, Cuban made the call. Or Luka, himself. For all we know Carlisle was just as pissed and surprised as we were. We really just don’t know. 

If Carlsile did make the call, then it seems silly to assume that he did so because he thought OKC would be a pushover. That doesn’t seem consistent with what we know about him. It might have been more of a necessary situation due to actual pain management or the need to prevent further injury. Those situations might very well have trumped the need to win. KP’s situation, in particular, seems like it could be completely out of the coaching staff’s hands. This is a business, and that is like a $200 million plus asset that management is either trying to trade or get across the finish line of the season, somehow.

[Thukydides]

Noone mentioning Yogi Ferrell? He´s only been good playing under RC.

[cow]

Noone mentioning Yogi Ferrell? He´s only been good playing under RC.

I think an interesting study for these types of guys is the time and place.  Would Yogi, Powell, DFS, Maxi have been given the same opportunities had the teams not been so devoid of talent.  And maybe this is all part of the frustration point, it's not that Carlisle can't develop talent, it's when he chooses not to that is maddening.  Maybe he is as impatient as Cuban.  I get that they want to win games but they have to be able to look in the mirror and realize they have very slim odds of making it deep into the playoffs and long term you are much better seeing if your rookie class can start to contribute rather than flail around with the end of the rotation JAGs we have on the bench that more than likely will not be here next season.

[Mavs2021]

I don’t disagree that they failed, and I don’t disagree that it was a sad, disgraceful failure.

I don’t disagree that the door is cracked open MOST for Bey out of all the rookies.

What I can’t endorse is this notion that because the vets fall flat on any given night, that must mean the rookies “couldn’t have been worse.” That’s a false equivalency. 

Regardless of how pointless we think this season has been, or just specifically a game for which Luka/KP are unavailable, the team, coach and organization are trying to win as many games as possible.

So let me ask you this: do you at least recognise the problem with having such a horrible reputation with rookies (and their agents). Regardless of whether Pokusevski will turn into a useful NBA player or not, when that agent has a talent of Giannis-like proportions, with insufficient in-game evaluation material, and he goes to workout for Donnie and Presti: who will get the maximum effort workout and who will get the BS. Imho that's a big reason why the same teams draft well or shitty. Are their scouts just better or do they also have it easier, because they get perfect information on the majority of young talent.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Have yet to see a name of a young player better than Jae Crowder that Rick wasted or "hated."  And Jae Crowder isn't exactly a world beater.  We got Maxi, DFS, Brunson that are that level player.

The Mavs front office operates so that Mark Cuban can have say and pal around with his buddy Donnie.  I get it's hard to criticize Donnie with Dirk and Luka on his resume but they need to make some changes and get him some help or spend more money on scouting.  I said before the draft there was a 70-80% chance the guy they take at 18 would be a bust.  They just dont seem to emphasize the importance of those picks.  Let's listen to Dirk and draft Shane Larkin.  There's way too much Dallas Cowboys/Jones family in how this team operates.  That's been largely overlooked because we hit on two generational players.

None of that is to say that Rick Carlisle is as good as Pop or Spoelstra at developing young players but it's really hard for me to see how someone can blame him more than the front office based on the track record.

I also dont see how you can follow what Green and Terry did in their G-league stint and with a straight face say they deserve playing time on a Western Conference playoff team.

[ItsGoTime]

Have yet to see a name of a young player better than Jae Crowder that Rick wasted or "hated."  And Jae Crowder isn't exactly a world beater.  We got Maxi, DFS, Brunson that are that level player.

The Mavs front office operates so that Mark Cuban can have say and pal around with his buddy Donnie.  I get it's hard to criticize Donnie with Dirk and Luka on his resume but they need to make some changes and get him some help or spend more money on scouting.  I said before the draft there was a 70-80% chance the guy they take at 18 would be a bust.  They just dont seem to emphasize the importance of those picks.  Let's listen to Dirk and draft Shane Larkin.  There's way too much Dallas Cowboys/Jones family in how this team operates.  That's been largely overlooked because we hit on two generational players.

None of that is to say that Rick Carlisle is as good as Pop or Spoelstra at developing young players but it's really hard for me to see how someone can blame him more than the front office based on the track record.

I also dont see how you can follow what Green and Terry did in their G-league stint and with a straight face say they deserve playing time on a Western Conference playoff team.

I think they've both had their turn here, get new blood in here. The ideas are played out. Not saying just bring anyone in, I'm saying look for an opportunity to snatch a couple guys that can run the FO and coach, then make the move.

[Jason Terry]

I think they've both had their turn here, get new blood in here. The ideas are played out. Not saying just bring anyone in, I'm saying look for an opportunity to snatch a couple guys that can run the FO and coach, then make the move.

We’ve seen that movie before. Snip snap. Donnie fired. Donnie re-hired. If we want to be real about this franchise the person that must have their place is Cuban. He isn’t Jerry. He has recent skins on the wall and he’s more concerned with winning than brand. He has plenty of $ too. So all that gives us a competitive advantage. He’s not Dolan either. All he wants is to be part of it all. He’s just a fan like us. One thing that’s overlooked is how much he used to party with players. Today though that has ended. My point is that the “negative” of Cuban these days is we still can’t hire just ANY GM or coach. There’s still a bit of that “needs to fit with Mark”. But not in a championship hindering way like Jerry. More personality. Rick has a tremendous record(we are having trouble finding a single player he mismanaged over 13 years!). Donnie is the one with the questionable record, yet he was on both the Luka AND Giannis bandwagons before either amounted to anything. IMO, Donnie must step up and show his ability to evaluate(with the best help money can buy) euro players who want to play with Luka. We need to have the best connections in that market and bring in underrated talent every year

[Mavs2021]

We’ve seen that movie before. Snip snap. Donnie fired. Donnie re-hired. If we want to be real about this franchise the person that must have their place is Cuban. He isn’t Jerry. He has recent skins on the wall and he’s more concerned with winning than brand. He has plenty of $ too. So all that gives us a competitive advantage. He’s not Dolan either. All he wants is to be part of it all. He’s just a fan like us. One thing that’s overlooked is how much he used to party with players. Today though that has ended. My point is that the “negative” of Cuban these days is we still can’t hire just ANY GM or coach. There’s still a bit of that “needs to fit with Mark”. But not in a championship hindering way like Jerry. More personality. Rick has a tremendous record(we are having trouble finding a single player he mismanaged over 13 years!). Donnie is the one with the questionable record, yet he was on both the Luka AND Giannis bandwagons before either amounted to anything. IMO, Donnie must step up and show his ability to evaluate(with the best help money can buy) euro players who want to play with Luka. We need to have the best connections in that market and bring in underrated talent every year

He gets way too much credit for Giannis and Doncic. I'm sorry. first of all we didn't draft Giannis so big freaking deal. Second we were tied last on Christmas of the Luka draft, so if Donnie really knew what kind of a talent Luka was, we'd have had the best lottery odds not tied 4th and then dumb-lucked into Luka through the backdoor. That also cost us an unnecessary future 1st that could have gone toward building a championship contender.

[cow]

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