GAME 36: DAL (19-17) @ OKC (16-21) | 108-115 loss

[KillerLeft]

A coaching change in Philly and NYK was the right move for those teams - just saying.

Right, but those were bad coaches. 

I'm fully on board with the idea that even a great coach might overstay his welcome somewhere, but I'm hesitant to fully endorse that kind of thinking after this crazy-abnormal year. Doc leaving LA, rather than Doc joining Philly, is probably a better example of how it would look from our perspective. Whichever team next ends up with Carlisle (Philly, in that example) would sure be glad to have him. I can tell you that.

[luka_skywalker_77]

Right, but those were bad coaches. 

I'm fully on board with the idea that even a great coach might overstay his welcome somewhere, but I'm hesitant to fully endorse that kind of thinking after this crazy-abnormal year. Doc leaving LA, rather than Doc joining Philly, is probably a better example of how it would look from our perspective. Whichever team next ends up with Carlisle (Philly, in that example) would sure be glad to have him. I can tell you that.

There are very few teams in the league that can/will win against any team, minus their top two players (while on the second night of a back to back, on the road). Not sure why people are blowing up the thread with this nonsense.

[KillerLeft]

There are very few teams in the league that can/will win against any team, minus their top two players. Not sure why people are blowing up the thread with this nonsense.

Yeah, I agree. But, I'm also not disagreeing that the current team/culture is falling flat, too. I don't think those upset are crazy at all. 

I guess I just see it as a team culture change happening at the least opportune moment in the history of the league. Perfect storm. The Mavs' choices are: 1) take drastic steps based on what's happening now, during this crazy time, or 2) trust the trajectory the team was on heading into this season, realizing that the pandemic has had a domino-like effect on everything we're seeing, even in subtle ways we here can't envision. 

Since I believed in Carlisle, Luka, DFS, etc, before the world broke, and since I see evidence everyday in my own life of people being less than their best as a result of the past year, I'm personally inclined to lean into the latter. It sucks that the organization didn't handle this season perfectly, giving us all a much needed diversion from how depressing real life has been this year, but it turns out that they, too, are people going through the same crap we are. I think it makes perfect sense. 

I'd also add that with the exception of PHX, Utah and Philly (maybe some others) and the 3-4 teams at the very bottom of the heap, every team's fans probably feel like their team is underachieving. I mean, MOST teams are hovering near .500, on one side or the other. 

It is what it is.

[chaparral]

Right, but those were bad coaches. 

I'm fully on board with the idea that even a great coach might overstay his welcome somewhere, but I'm hesitant to fully endorse that kind of thinking after this crazy-abnormal year. Doc leaving LA, rather than Doc joining Philly, is probably a better example of how it would look from our perspective. Whichever team next ends up with Carlisle (Philly, in that example) would sure be glad to have him. I can tell you that.

I think in your reply to Kamm you state that this was a vary young team (as is Luka) going though young growing things or something.  RC is a veteran coach who likes veteran players.  Maybe it is the old veteran coach having probable's relating.  Heck, even our team shrink is an old veteran.

It was a shame what the coach did to Green last night by pulling him after 2 min.  Again Heck, why did we draft 3 rookies when our veteran coach won't give them time because he cant relate to or has the patience for young players.

Maybe I'm over reacting.  I tend to do that after a loss.

[ItsGoTime]

Right, but those were bad coaches. 

I'm fully on board with the idea that even a great coach might overstay his welcome somewhere, but I'm hesitant to fully endorse that kind of thinking after this crazy-abnormal year. Doc leaving LA, rather than Doc joining Philly, is probably a better example of how it would look from our perspective. Whichever team next ends up with Carlisle (Philly, in that example) would sure be glad to have him. I can tell you that.

LeBron is a Carlisle fan, I wouldn't doubt he goes to LaL and helps them dominate for a few more years. It's not about what RC can do with a good veteran team, we know that already. It's what he can do with THIS team.

[Jason Terry]

I think in your reply to Kamm you state that this was a vary young team (as is Luka) going though young growing things or something.  RC is a veteran coach who likes veteran players.  Maybe it is the old veteran coach having probable's relating.  Heck, even our team shrink is an old veteran.

It was a shame what the coach did to Green last night by pulling him after 2 min.  Again Heck, why did we draft 3 rookies when our veteran coach won't give them time because he cant relate to or has the patience for young players.

Maybe I'm over reacting.  I tend to do that after a loss.

People said the exact same things about Doc being an old vet coach not connecting. Now look at the narrative 

not Rick’s fault that Green and Terry left school too early. Not his fault that Donnie didn’t draft NBA ready prospects. If they were good he would play them like he did with Brunson

[KillerLeft]

RC is a veteran coach who likes veteran players.  Maybe it is the old veteran coach having probable's relating.  Heck, even our team shrink is an old veteran.

I see this opinion here often. It's quite popular, but I've never bought it, personally. I think developing young players is a specific strength of Carlisle's, though doing it the "right" way results in a frustrating lack of transparency for we, the fans. I could write 5,000 words on this topic (and have tried before) because it's fascinating to me. The "tl;dr" version is: just because we, the fans aren't afforded the opportunity to SEE the development in games doesn't mean that Carlisle and his staff aren't quite focused on developing them. 

I actually think holding them back from games until they're ready is beneficial to their trajectories in some cases. A) They learn that they must approach their careers the right way to earn time (more than half the battle, I'd bet) and B) it saves them from losing confidence by failing thoroughly in front of a live and tv audience. There's a time when that type of failure can be the best teacher, but I don't know that everyone is ready to learn those lessons immediately in year one. 

Further, Carlisle has always had the unenviable task of not (intentionally) allowing the team's level of play to hit rock bottom while developing said players, and at times is expected to vastly overachieve while doing so. It's a tightrope. Let's not pretend it's easy. 

Every time a player must be played out of the gate, whether by merit (Luka, Brunson) or because ready or not, the organization needs them to play in order to move forward (DSJ), Carlisle makes it work. 

I see that DSJ was growing here until he got in his own way. I see how he then was moved to a bottom dwelling team who absolutely SHOULD have leaned into allowing him to take the reigns and fail in order to learn, only NY didn't allow that. They benched his ass to an extreme degree. I read how Crowder and others credit Carlisle with teaching them things that have quite literally allowed them to have careers. I see how young lottery busts, like Brandan Wright, Aminu, WCS and others come here and seem to have completely resurrected their careers, only to fall away again (in some cases) once they leave. I see how undrafted "trash" like DFS and Kleber are rewarded for their strong work by becoming usable, above average role players here. I could go on and on. 


I just don't buy the "he won't develop young guys" stuff. I don't think less of those who do, but it has just never rung true to me. 

Maybe I'm over reacting.  I tend to do that after a loss.

We all are, and we all do. Losing sucks. Hopefully, my devil's advocate doesn't give the impression that I don't value your perspective, or that of others.

[dirkfansince1998]

I don´t buy the RC anti-rookie/young players narrative. DFS played 20 minutes per game in his first season. Started in 35 games. Brunson played 22 minutes per game in his rookie season. Started in 38 games.
DSJ started even though Barea was clearly the better player. Doncic obviously started as well.

I think by now we have established that the Mavs did not go for the most NBA ready picks. Green is a SG/SF. That´s the one position where the Mavs actually have solid depth. He won´t get any minutes over THJ, DFS or Richardson. Maybe he could replace Burke and make a cameo in the 2nd quarter.
Same for Terry who is even more of a project. Hinton is still in the g-league bubble.

Only one that has a legit case for minutes is Bey. And that´s not a good sign. More about the lack of front court depth. Mavs have KP and Maxi. The rest probably shouldn´t be in the rotation. Right now I would happily give Bey some minutes at the 4/5. He cannot be any worse than WCS, Powell and Johnson.

[Mavs2021]

Richardson had the most pathetic (effort) play at a big moment, when SGA missed a lay-up, nearly was out of bounds, 're-established and put the ball back in. Meanwhile Richardson was right there ballwatching all the way. If that was a rookie, a Rajon or a Christmas,he would have immediately called a timeout started yelling at the player on court and you would not have seen him for a month.

[KillerLeft]

If that was a rookie, a Rajon or a Christmas,he would have immediately called a timeout started yelling at the player on court and you would not have seen him for a month.

If he felt he had that option, you might be absolutely right that he'd handle it that way.

[MFFL]

Yogi Ferrell had a huge role with the Mavericks as a young player here

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Only one that has a legit case for minutes is Bey. 

.

I'd give Bey a cameo to see if he can insert some energy.  The other two absolutely do not deserve playing time right now.

People point to freakin Jae Crowder as some shining example of young talent Carlisle has mismanaged.  Never forget all the first round bums that left here and didnt do anything else in the NBA either like Shane Larkin and Justin Anderson.

[Mavs2021]

.

I'd give Bey a cameo to see if he can insert some energy.  The other two absolutely do not deserve playing time right now.

People point to freakin Jae Crowder as some shining example of young talent Carlisle has mismanaged.  Never forget all the first round bums that left here and didnt do anything else in the NBA either like Shane Larkin and Justin Anderson.

The funny part is that a guy like Anderson was actually pretty useful in our team concept, cause he needed no basketball skill to make a positive contribution on our ensemble of the walking dead. It feels like Bey could at least offer that much. Just trying hard will probably make you a net positive.

[chaparral]

I see this opinion here often. It's quite popular, but I've never bought it, personally. I think developing young players is a specific strength of Carlisle's, though doing it the "right" way results in a frustrating lack of transparency for we, the fans. I could write 5,000 words on this topic (and have tried before) because it's fascinating to me. The "tl;dr" version is: just because we, the fans aren't afforded the opportunity to SEE the development in games doesn't mean that Carlisle and his staff aren't quite focused on developing them. 

I actually think holding them back from games until they're ready is beneficial to their trajectories in some cases. A) They learn that they must approach their careers the right way to earn time (more than half the battle, I'd bet) and B) it saves them from losing confidence by failing thoroughly in front of a live and tv audience. There's a time when that type of failure can be the best teacher, but I don't know that everyone is ready to learn those lessons immediately in year one. 

Further, Carlisle has always had the unenviable task of not (intentionally) allowing the team's level of play to hit rock bottom while developing said players, and at times is expected to vastly overachieve while doing so. It's a tightrope. Let's not pretend it's easy. 

Every time a player must be played out of the gate, whether by merit (Luka, Brunson) or because ready or not, the organization needs them to play in order to move forward (DSJ), Carlisle makes it work. 

I see that DSJ was growing here until he got in his own way. I see how he then was moved to a bottom dwelling team who absolutely SHOULD have leaned into allowing him to take the reigns and fail in order to learn, only NY didn't allow that. They benched his ass to an extreme degree. I read how Crowder and others credit Carlisle with teaching them things that have quite literally allowed them to have careers. I see how young lottery busts, like Brandan Wright, Aminu, WCS and others come here and seem to have completely resurrected their careers, only to fall away again (in some cases) once they leave. I see how undrafted "trash" like DFS and Kleber are rewarded for their strong work by becoming usable, above average role players here. I could go on and on. 


I just don't buy the "he won't develop young guys" stuff. I don't think less of those who do, but it has just never rung true to me. 




We all are, and we all do. Losing sucks. Hopefully, my devil's advocate doesn't give the impression that I don't value your perspective, or that of others.

I actually enjoy reading all the different opinions on this board.  Heck, it was you KL that had me convinced the other week that we need to trade KP now before he gets hurt again.

[cow]

I don´t buy the RC anti-rookie/young players narrative. DFS played 20 minutes per game in his first season. Started in 35 games. Brunson played 22 minutes per game in his rookie season. Started in 38 games.
DSJ started even though Barea was clearly the better player. Doncic obviously started as well.

I think by now we have established that the Mavs did not go for the most NBA ready picks. Green is a SG/SF. That´s the one position where the Mavs actually have solid depth. He won´t get any minutes over THJ, DFS or Richardson. Maybe he could replace Burke and make a cameo in the 2nd quarter.
Same for Terry who is even more of a project. Hinton is still in the g-league bubble.

Only one that has a legit case for minutes is Bey. And that´s not a good sign. More about the lack of front court depth. Mavs have KP and Maxi. The rest probably shouldn´t be in the rotation. Right now I would happily give Bey some minutes at the 4/5. He cannot be any worse than WCS, Powell and Johnson.

I don't think it's anti-Rookie with Carlisle as we've seen the same routine with free agent signings and trades.  You need to be his type of guy to crack the rotation and get consistent minutes.  That's all well and good when you have a solid foundation but when you are building a team up, it's just not great for development.  

Playing Green and Bey two minutes combined last night is inexcusable.  If the intention was to win the game then Luka, KP or both needed to suit up.  If your rookies aren't going to get minutes in a game like that, then when?

[MAVS-SLO]

It's not disaster to lose a game. In the similar way we won a game against Nets before All star. 

I'm just confused what was a purpose of resting both of KP and Luka. Before the game i would say that one option was to see where team without Luka & KP ranks against one of the worst teams. Second option was, that RC wants to see players who ussualy don't play (read rookies) how much impact can have against nba team. That second option, we sadly didn't see.

But that game i think give as some answers to some other things.
First is KP, his impact and his contract doesn't seem so bad after this game. Brunson, THJ, J-Rich, Kleber & DFS are also fantastic comparing impact and their salaries.

But on the other side, that game also shows that we are spending 30-35 mil. of cap space to the players without impact. Johnson, Powell, WCS, Boban, Iwundu together are near 35 million per year and they don't have any impact. That's the Dallas biggest problem, not KP. For that money ''we could have'' a max player in the roster or. 2 players for around 15 million per year. If we add also rookie salaries who don't play we are a close to a 40 million of cap space for nothing.

[Kammrath]

I don't think it's anti-Rookie with Carlisle as we've seen the same routine with free agent signings and trades.  You need to be his type of guy to crack the rotation and get consistent minutes.  That all well and good when you have a solid foundation but when you are building a team up, it's just not great for development.  

100% THIS.

RC has clearly played rookies, there should be zero debate on that. But there is a long history of players across the board (though young ones especially) that for whatever reason do not mesh with RC. And we have seen some of those players really blossom outside of the confines of RC's personality (and we have seen some really suck too). 

Again, I think RC is a good coach, I just do not believe he is the right coach for this set of players and situation.

NOTE: Just my current take that I reserve the right to change in a few months and to be dead wrong on.

[cow]

Again, I think RC is a good coach, I just do not believe he is the right coach for this set of players and situation.

I'd replace good with great but we are on the same wavelength.  The loss last night bothers me as we need wins, but if we are going to call it a schedule loss then take the opportunity to see if your rookies can translate any of their G-League momentum to the biggest stage.

We all like to bag on the Green pick, but who knows what he'd look like if he were in Detroit and getting 23+ minutes a night.

[KillerLeft]

Playing Green and Bey two minutes combined last night is inexcusable.  If the intention was to win the game then Luka, KP or both needed to suit up.  If your rookies aren't going to get minutes in a game like that, then when?

Couldn’t the goal have been to rest Luka and KP (which might not even have been Carlisle’s choice) AND to try to win the game by playing the players he felt best gave the team that chance?

[cow]

Couldn’t the goal have been to rest Luka and KP (which might not even have been Carlisle’s choice) AND to try to win the game by playing the players he felt best gave the team that chance?

That was the goal and they failed.  You could even make an argument for Green being buried behind the strength of our rotation but not for Bey.  Yet Green got minutes, had two terrible offensive possessions and got yanked and Bey got the DNP.   How's the rotation ahead of Bey playing?  It's also going to be difficult to tell which players give you the best chance to win if you don't play them.  We can chicken and egg this conversation forever, I guess.