Has Carlisle run out of ideas/does he need a mental/physical break?

[Mavs2019]

I really think you're overestimating the ease of finding a good coach. 

Sure the Nurse hire was great. Stevens. etc.

But for every Nurse and Stevens there's a dozen Lloyd Pierce/Vinnie Del Negro/Mike Woodson/Kurt Rambis/Luke Walton etc.

If it was so easy to just hire a good young coach then lots of teams would do it consistently. I'd rather not go on the carousel of coaches in the hopes one would be better than Carlisle (who is consistently ranked as a top 5 coach by his peers). 

It'd have to take at least 2 years of underperforming or a colossal falling out with Luka/Cuban for Carlisle to get the boot, and he's earned that much leash at least.

Would be nice, if  you quoted my whole post the next time, instead of completely taking it out of context. 

Cause literally my next sentence was 

Do I have faith in Nelson/Cuban finding that guy? Absolutely 100% NOT.

[hakeemfaan]

Donnie has hit spectacularly on Dirk and on Luka. Yes one of them might have been a no brainer but there were teams that passed on him. However overall I would characterize Donnie’s tenure as disappointing. Dirk should have multiple titles here. Dirk had his flaws too but there was a stat about transcendent players leading their team to perennial playoffs and Dirk was the only guy with one title. 

If you get stars to come like the Nets or Heat you can see that nothing else matters. Else you have to have a plan If you see Riley, the one thing he always has stressed is a dominant force at the 5 spot.  Adebayo was not an accident. Coincidentally that seems one of Donnie’s biggest flaws. He always seems to get it wrong in terms of the strength needed to play down low.  Even though the two times Dirk made the Finals he had the best centers alongside him, it is as if Donnie refuses to learn. 

As for this year I whole heartedly agree with @"dirkfansince1998".  Let us put aside this season. Even last season this offense struggled in clutch situations against good teams. Luka is great but he is very young. It is not an accident that the offense stalls. I think in trying to placate Luka and the new age stars who demand trades the moment they are unhappy, the Mavs have gone the other extreme. That is not the right approach to take. RC should be calling the majority of plays and and not just allow free reign to Luka. This will also help Luka in the long run. If he cannot accept that and wants to leave , what can you do?  My basketball cup of joy was forever filled with that Dirk title. Luka stays or goes doesn’t bother me. Team first for me and stars who are willing to play within that construct.

[KillerLeft]

Donnie has hit spectacularly on Dirk and on Luka. Yes one of them might have been a no brainer but there were teams that passed on him. However overall I would characterize Donnie’s tenure as disappointing. Dirk should have multiple titles here. Dirk had his flaws too but there was a stat about transcendent players leading their team to perennial playoffs and Dirk was the only guy with one title. 

If you get stars to come like the Nets or Heat you can see that nothing else matters. Else you have to have a plan If you see Riley, the one thing he always has stressed is a dominant force at the 5 spot.  Adebayo was not an accident. Coincidentally that seems one of Donnie’s biggest flaws. He always seems to get it wrong in terms of the strength needed to play down low.  Even though the two times Dirk made the Finals he had the best centers alongside him, it is as if Donnie refuses to learn. 

Agree that Nelson has been largely disappointing, when his tenure is viewed from a bird's eye view. Agree the 5 spot has been a recurring issue. 

But, I feel like I see adjustment from Nelson and the Mavs. I feel like what they've been attempting has been adjusted this time around, maybe not in every way that matters, but in enough ways to give me some hope. 

I HOPE that they're not 100% results oriented with their self-analysis, and that they don't overreact in one direction or another. I think the PROCESS they've employed over the past few years is a good one, and sometimes even surprisingly good, even if some of the individual moves weren't successful. I think the best chance they have is to continue to make conservative, calculated decisions and not reach for too much too quickly. They made a big swing on the KP thing, and that might've been a mistake, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same at the time. 

I hate watching this team right now, and I'm as depressed about it as anyone, but I refuse to knee-jerk about all the things that had me feeling excited and hopeful just months ago. Those things were true at that time, not some elaborate mirage.

[cow]

Agree that Nelson has been largely disappointing, when his tenure is viewed from a bird's eye view. Agree the 5 spot has been a recurring issue. 

But, I feel like I see adjustment from Nelson and the Mavs. I feel like what they've been attempting has been adjusted this time around, maybe not in every way that matters, but in enough ways to give me some hope. 

I HOPE that they're not 100% results oriented with their self-analysis, and that they don't overreact in one direction or another. I think the PROCESS they've employed over the past few years is a good one, and sometimes even surprisingly good, even if some of the individual moves weren't successful. I think the best chance they have is to continue to make conservative, calculated decisions and not reach for too much too quickly. They made a big swing on the KP thing, and that might've been a mistake, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same at the time. 

I hate watching this team right now, and I'm as depressed about it as anyone, but I refuse to knee-jerk about all the things that had me feeling excited and hopeful just months ago. Those things were true at that time, not some elaborate mirage.

I'm not sure how they've improved and I'm not sure I'd call it knee jerk.  It seems like the overarching goal from a team building standpoint is their stubborn view on cap flexibility and hoping their stars (first Dirk, now Luka) are enough to convince other big names to join the team.  Free agency is still a nightmare.  How are you ever going to get another star to come here when you can't even get a conversation with a Kemba Walker level player and you let players like Danny Green jerk you around while other free agents go off the board.  They also miss out on quality MLE targets because they only want to give out minimal length contracts.  The draft also feels like a complete mystery to them.  

The only real improvement we've seen from them is that they've moved off the idea of thinking the 4th or 5th best guy on a good team could be elevated to a primary option (Parsons/Barnes).

[SleepingHero]

Would be nice, if  you quoted my whole post the next time, instead of completely taking it out of context. 

Cause literally my next sentence was 

Ok so if they can't find that guy, then why would they get rid of the current guy whos bound to be better than any replacement?

[KillerLeft]

I'm not sure how they've improved and I'm not sure I'd call it knee jerk.  It seems like the overarching goal from a team building standpoint is their stubborn view on cap flexibility and hoping their stars (first Dirk, now Luka) are enough to convince other big names to join the team.  Free agency is still a nightmare.  How are you ever going to get another star to come here when you can't even get a conversation with a Kemba Walker level player and you let players like Danny Green jerk you around while other free agents go off the board.  They also miss out on quality MLE targets because they only want to give out minimal length contracts.  The draft also feels like a complete mystery to them.  

The only real improvement we've seen from them is that they've moved off the idea of thinking the 4th or 5th best guy on a good team could be elevated to a primary option (Parsons/Barnes).

There are a lot of assumptions here with which I disagree. Could write a lot of words, but here are the bullet points:

1) I don't think the ONLY reason to keep bad money off of your books is to try to convince stars to sign with your team. I think bad money on your books (like KP's will be, if he doesn't start playing well) is the single biggest road block to good roster building, regardless of what your overall plan might be. 

2) Parsons/Barnes both predate the change in approach I'm talking about. Those are examples of them NOT having a good plan in place, imo. Having said that, I'd push back on the thought that the MBT was so clueless as to believe either could be franchise cornerstones. I legitimately believe that those were simply the best players they could get to come here while the league waited for Dirk to retire. It probably would've been better for the franchise in the long run if the Mavs had pressed the issue with Dirk a bit more, like "dude, it's time for us to be bad. You're not Dirk anymore. You are welcome to hang around, but we're not going to tread water just because you're still playing. We need to rebuild." Having said that, I get why it was too hard for them to do that, I really do. It doesn't mean they actually believed Harrison Barnes was a franchise player. Right or wrong, it was just a desperate attempt to keep Dirk relevant as long as possible.

---

and I'm not sure I'd call it knee jerk. 

Sorry, one more thing. I just want to make it clear that I'm not accusing @"hakeemfaan" of knee-jerking. I'm saying that buying 100% into the current doom and gloom would feel like a knee-jerk from ME, given how I've felt about the recent direction of the franchise. That's what I meant.

[cow]

1) I don't think the ONLY reason to keep bad money off of your books is to try to convince stars to sign with your team. I think bad money on your books (like KP's will be, if he doesn't start playing well) is the single biggest road block to good roster building, regardless of what your overall plan might be. 

Other teams have proven time and time again that they can get rid of bad money if the need arises.  And when you are talking about offering years to MLE guys, I'd not classify the additional years of Crowder as bad money and certainly not unsurmountable.

[hakeemfaan]

Agree that Nelson has been largely disappointing, when his tenure is viewed from a bird's eye view. Agree the 5 spot has been a recurring issue. 

But, I feel like I see adjustment from Nelson and the Mavs. I feel like what they've been attempting has been adjusted this time around, maybe not in every way that matters, but in enough ways to give me some hope. 

I HOPE that they're not 100% results oriented with their self-analysis, and that they don't overreact in one direction or another. I think the PROCESS they've employed over the past few years is a good one, and sometimes even surprisingly good, even if some of the individual moves weren't successful. I think the best chance they have is to continue to make conservative, calculated decisions and not reach for too much too quickly. They made a big swing on the KP thing, and that might've been a mistake, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same at the time. 

I hate watching this team right now, and I'm as depressed about it as anyone, but I refuse to knee-jerk about all the things that had me feeling excited and hopeful just months ago. Those things were true at that time, not some elaborate mirage.

The problem though is that other than the two Finals years we always look like we can get punked, if I might use that word, inside. There is no real force or strength. Whatever process they are following still seems to leave us with the same issue. Everyone could see Dp is fundamentally a weak strength guy despite a chiseled frame. Yet they extended him. Boban was a relic and they got him for a 3 year deal. 

The draft is a crapshoot. You want to pass up on Precious Achiuwa or Vernon Carey that is fine. At least acknowledge you have an issue. I am not even saying that it requires stars. Lakers won with Dwight and Javale. But they knew that when things got tough those two would provide some force down low. The Mavs through most of Donnie’s tenure seems to always be the team that is lacking the guy who other teams cringe to play against. 

I am not overreacting on this season. Even if things were great and we were a high seed there is an element of physicality missing with this team and that always seems to get magnified in the playoffs.

[KillerLeft]

Other teams have proven time and time again that they can get rid of bad money if the need arises.  And when you are talking about offering years to MLE guys, I'd not classify the additional years of Crowder as bad money and certainly not unsurmountable.

It's all relative, for sure. There's bad money and then there's BAD MONEY. 

We can quibble over the details of specific scenarios. What I'm saying is THANK GOD they're not going Juwon Howard --> Van Exel/Lafrentz --> Jamison/Walker --> Stackhouse, etc etc etc

You are free to disagree, but what I see is a team trying to do something different than what almost completely wasted Dirk's career, and I'm here for it. I don't need every single decision to be a winner to appreciate the overall approach.

[cow]

It's all relative, for sure. There's bad money and then there's BAD MONEY. 

We can quibble over the details of specific scenarios. What I'm saying is THANK GOD they're not going Juwon Howard --> Van Exel/Lafrentz --> Jamison/Walker --> Stackhouse, etc etc etc

You are free to disagree, but what I see is a team trying to do something different than what almost completely wasted Dirk's career, and I'm here for it.

I just don't see it as very different from the team that wasted the last years of Dirk's prime.  They need to realize that Dallas isn't an attractive destination for agents/players and they are going to need to make concessions to build a contender.  

The clock is also ticking.  Luka probably isn't going to have Dirk's patience or loyalty, not many players do.

[KillerLeft]

I just don't see it as very different from the team that wasted the last years of Dirk's prime.

Ahhhh...there it is. Different conversation. 

I think Dirks prime ended in 2011. I know there are advanced stats that disagree, but I watched the games, and never quite felt he was a superstar ever again. I don't really blame the MBT for much during that time, other than breaking up the title team and then not simply choosing to rebuild soon after. I can totally agree that some HORRIBLE decisions were made during that post championship era, but I think they were symptoms of not really knowing how to reset the franchise (without Dirk retiring). 

My real beef with the MBT is what happened between the beginning of the Nash/Finley/Dirk era and 2011. THAT is when they were truly rudderless, imo, and THAT is what is more apples-to-apples comparable to the situation they're in now with Luka. I'm saying they are doing different things NOW than they did THEN. Personally, I'm glad.

[Mavs2019]

Ahhhh...there it is. Different conversation. 

I think Dirks prime ended in 2011. I know there are advanced stats that disagree, but I watched the games, and never quite felt he was a superstar ever again. I don't really blame the MBT for much during that time, other than breaking up the title team and then not simply choosing to rebuild soon after. I can totally agree that some HORRIBLE decisions were made during that post championship era, but I think they were symptoms of not really knowing how to reset the franchise (without Dirk retiring).

It´s actually pretty simple. The MBT sucks at the execution of the most basic NBA moves.

Here is a short story from 2019

Mavs sign Delon Wright + two 2nd round picks at the cost of $9M
Grizzlies acquire Andre Igoudala + an virtually unprotected Warriors 1st round pick at the cost of $16M
Twelve months later the Mavs traded Delon Wright + two 2nd round picks for cap relief.

So when it is all set and done the Mavs lost four second round picks to be empty-handed, while the Grizzlies have gained a 1st round pick to be empty-handed.

Oh and that´s before we even mention the rumour that later the Mavs tried to actually acquire Igoudala via trade from the Grizzlies.

For a damn decade, every single summer the Mavs could have eaten bad contracts for picks and gotten players just as good as the 2nd rate leftover FAs they eventually settled for. For 10 years they could have collected picks over picks over picks for the moment a Doncic needed a Beal.

Can you think of a single trade in 20 years of Cuban, where we took on a bad contract for picks?

I honestly believe in 2000 Cuban was an enthusiastic mediocre owner and Nelson was an enthusiastic mediocre GM in a room full of utter morons. Then over the last 20 years more and more of these morons left the room and were replacement with smart people. Now the mediocre guys have become the morons.

[cow]

It´s actually pretty simple. The MBT sucks at the execution of the most basic NBA moves.

Here is a short story from 2019

Mavs sign Delon Wright + two 2nd round picks at the cost of $9M
Grizzlies acquire Andre Igoudala + an virtually unprotected Warriors 1st round pick at the cost of $16M
Twelve months later the Mavs traded Delon Wright + two 2nd round picks for cap relief.

So when it is all set and done the Mavs lost four second round picks to be empty-handed, while the Grizzlies have gained a 1st round pick to be empty-handed.

Oh and that´s before we even mention the rumour that later the Mavs tried to actually acquire Igoudala via trade from the Grizzlies.

For a damn decade, every single summer the Mavs could have eaten bad contracts for picks and gotten players just as good as the 2nd rate leftover FAs they eventually settled for. For 10 years they could have collected picks over picks over picks for the moment a Doncic needed a Beal.

Can you think of a single trade in 20 years of Cuban, where we took on a bad contract for picks?

I honestly believe in 2000 Cuban was an enthusiastic mediocre owner and Nelson was an enthusiastic mediocre GM in a room full of utter morons. Then over the last 20 years more and more of these morons left the room and were replacement with smart people. Now the mediocre guys have become the morons.

TJ Warren was 2019 too, no?  You could easily argue we'd have wasted those picks based on how well the team drafts but you can't argue that we don't suck at asset accumulation.  Trading for Luka was great.  Trading for KP was also the right move but they had to spend assets to make both moves and the cupboard was fairly bare so they had to dip into future assets.  Combine that with their free agency failings and you have a roster construction where you could argue that 2/3rds of it shouldn't be in the NBA or shouldn't be getting any meaningful minutes.

[khaled1987]

They tried to offer one year contracts. Team plan powder was still chasing the Giannis pipe dream and prefered max caspace in 2021.

Nope, other than Gasol we offered multiple year contract. 
Jae preferred Suns, and we had no chance on Gillinari with that Hawks offer.