Has Carlisle run out of ideas/does he need a mental/physical break?

[Kammrath]

if they decide they need a new coach, who the hell is that?

[KillerLeft]

Do I have faith in Nelson/Cuban finding that guy? Absolutely 100% NOT.

You make a great point about Nurse being an unknown. Stevens and Spoelstra were kind of that way, too.

But, I just don’t feel comfortable handing this opportunity over to an unknown. Not just for the part of your post I quoted, but because it’s very unlikely that ANY team will get that lucky. And make no mistake, there is a little bit of luck involved. I don’t know though – maybe that is chickenshit of me.

---

Good coach. Seems like he is taken.

Nurse, Stevens, Spo and Snyder are all good, too. Drawing a blank on his name, but I like the former Mavs assistant who has been in Portland since 2011.

Just saying, those guys all have jobs already. My hope is that the Mavericks can pull out of this with Carlisle.

[dirkfansince1998]

I think the Mavs' draft this year was pretty abominable given what they could have done. That of course pains me to say as a huge pre-draft fan of Terry and Tiger. But the Green pick... he looks like by far the best of our rookies, but he looks awful next to some of the guys we could have taken with that pick.

I think the biggest mistake was splitting the MLE. WCS, Burke and Terry aren´t top 8-10 rotation players on a playoff team. Mavs paid all of them more than the minimum. They had one shot to add another useful rotation player and ended up with two mediocre end of the bench pieces and a 2nd round pick.

[cow]

Just saying, those guys all have jobs already. My hope is that the Mavericks can pull out of this with Carlisle.

I think Carlisle was the right guy at the right time for the Mavericks.  He was getting a veteran team over the hump after they tuned Avery Johnson out.  It wasn't always smooth sailing as I remember clashes with JKidd.  

I don't think he's the right coach for a young or rebuilding team.  He just has a hard time developing certain types of draft picks or utilizing certain types of acquired players.  It makes him a little too inflexible overall and when you combine that with the MBT shortcomings (drafting and free agent player acquisition) it can really hamstring your roster.

[Mavs2019]

I think Carlisle was the right guy at the right time for the Mavericks.  He was getting a veteran team over the hump after they tuned Avery Johnson out.  It wasn't always smooth sailing as I remember clashes with JKidd.  

I don't think he's the right coach for a young or rebuilding team.  He just has a hard time developing certain types of draft picks or utilizing certain types of acquired players.  It makes him a little too inflexible overall and when you combine that with the MBT shortcomings (drafting and free agent player acquisition) it can really hamstring your roster.

Yeah. That´s Carlisle´s major flaw imho and probably something a younger coach would approach differently. They are more fearless and open to the benefits of effort, fresh legs and youthful excuberance, while Carlisle always sides with the error reduction, institutional knowledge and veteran savvy.

I don´t know whether he has so many things to consider that it´s simply his one blind spot. Last night Green came into the game for garbage minutes, he hustled, played hard defense (unlike the whole fucking team), finally got some shots to fall.

So naturally I, and more importantly a motivated and happy Green, must have thought he´d be getting some minutes tonight. Nope Carlisle just takes the air out of that pumped up tire again.

I just don´t think that´s how you can develop young players. It´s like training a young puppy. If it does something right, it wants a sign of approval to motivate it, to do it again.

I for the love of god cannot understand how you draft a 23 year old Tyler Bey at 36, immediately insult him with a two way contract and then just forget about him. If you have no interest in his immediate impact (as a very old veteran rookie) and you cannot give him minutes over a hot mess like Iwundu, then why not take some f´n 18 year old.

Jahm´us Ramsey was the 2nd youngest prospect in this draft. Take him instead. He has five years of time to become a useless draft pick on a two way contract.

[cow]

I for the love of god cannot understand how you draft a 23 year old Tyler Bey at 36, immediately insult him with a two way contract and then just forget about him. If you have no interest in his immediate impact (as a very old veteran rookie) and you cannot give him minutes over a hot mess like Iwundu, then why not take some f´n 18 year old.

Jahm´us Ramsey was the 2nd youngest prospect in this draft. Take him instead. He has five years of time to become a useless draft pick on a two way contract.

It's a good point and something else to point out.  It really feels like Carlisle has no input on the draft at times or player acquisitions and sometimes it does.  Bey seems like a Carlisle type of player like Brunson, but is getting no run, even when we are down 4 players.  I really wish MBT and Carlisle were in lockstep.

[Jym]

I do wonder how much it affected him that the MBT didn't make a bigger financial commitment to the team the past couple years.
We could easily have $30 to $40 million more in rotation players if we didn't go the powder route

As an outsider it certainly makes me care less about the team prospects. I'm mostly just focused on player development especially Luka. Winning or losing is pretty secondary since no commitment was made to reach the top level.

[Mavs2019]

It's a good point and something else to point out.  It really feels like Carlisle has no input on the draft at times or player acquisitions and sometimes it does.  Bey seems like a Carlisle type of player like Brunson, but is getting no run, even when we are down 4 players.  I really wish MBT and Carlisle were in lockstep.

 
It´s possible Bey/Terry suck and would never develop, even under different circumstances. Then the question needs to be raised whether the MBT/Scouting staff are good enough at their job.

But there are so many different layers to this, but let´s assume for a second that our assessment of Carlisle being extra tough on rookies and always leaning toward veterans is true, then the logical conclusion is that it only makes drafting harder, because the information gets skewed:

1. The raw young draft talent with major upside will always try to avoid getting drafted by the Mavs. Therefore manipulating their workouts/interviews negatively to decrease their chances to be selected by us.

2. The college veterans, who are not in high demand, will always come hard for the Mavs workouts, because they know we are one of their best chances to be selected at all. They are also generally more mature, because well they have 3-4 additional years of life experience.

Maybe that partially helps to explain our poor draft evalution.

If you were a talented rookie, would Dallas be one of your preferred destinations to get the necessary developmental minutes on the floor?

I guess all I´m saying is:: If you have a great reputation for young player development around the agents, that means the agents will be comfortable to tell their clients to go all out during the draft process. That means these teams will get much more perfect (honest) information about the draft talent pool than a franchise with a bad reputation.

[Omega_Supreme]

I do wonder how much it affected him that the MBT didn't make a bigger financial commitment to the team the past couple years.
We could easily have $30 to $40 million more in rotation players if we didn't go the powder route

As an outsider it certainly makes me care less about the team prospects. I'm mostly just focused on player development especially Luka. Winning or losing is pretty secondary since no commitment was made to reach the top level.

Isn't part of player development getting to the playoffs and getting meaningful reps when stakes are on the line.

[Jym]

Isn't part of player development getting to the playoffs and getting meaningful reps when stakes are on the line.

True. We are probably stunting his growth a bit.
I guess going into last season it was hard to see that he was going to be this great so soon but even in that scenario making the decision to commit more money would have been a no-brainer. I'm still just baffled we went down the powder path again.

[cow]

 
It´s possible Bey/Terry suck and would never develop, even under different circumstances. Then the question needs to be raised whether the MBT/Scouting staff are good enough at their job.

But there are so many different layers to this, but let´s assume for a second that our assessment of Carlisle being extra tough on rookies and always leaning toward veterans is true, then the logical conclusion is that it only makes drafting harder, because the information gets skewed:

1. The raw young draft talent with major upside will always try to avoid getting drafted by the Mavs. Therefore manipulating their workouts/interviews negatively to decrease their chances to be selected by us.

2. The college veterans, who are not in high demand, will always come hard for the Mavs workouts, because they know we are one of their best chances to be selected at all. They are also generally more mature, because well they have 3-4 additional years of life experience.

Maybe that partially helps to explain our poor draft evalution.

If you were a talented rookie, would Dallas be one of your preferred destinations to get the necessary developmental minutes on the floor?

I guess all I´m saying is:: If you have a great reputation for young player development around the agents, that means the agents will be comfortable to tell their clients to go all out during the draft process. That means these teams will get much more perfect (honest) information about the draft talent pool than a franchise with a bad reputation.

I do put a lot more blame on MBT drafting/FA acquisition than I do on Carlisle for the situation the roster is in, but he's not free of blame either.

Development is weird too:  We could point to recent success of developing Brunson (that's probably a bit less of a feat as the kid came to play day 1), DFS, Maxi, Powell

I'm not sure what the secret sauce is for earning Rick's trust but some players have it and others don't.  And I don't think it's easy to pinpoint as you'd think a player like Monta Ellis or Delonte West would flame out as easily as some of the other players the team as acquired.  Maybe Rick just has a soft spot for a certain level of crazy (DeShwan).

[SleepingHero]

There is always a good young coach to be found!

I really think you're overestimating the ease of finding a good coach. 

Sure the Nurse hire was great. Stevens. etc.

But for every Nurse and Stevens there's a dozen Lloyd Pierce/Vinnie Del Negro/Mike Woodson/Kurt Rambis/Luke Walton etc.

If it was so easy to just hire a good young coach then lots of teams would do it consistently. I'd rather not go on the carousel of coaches in the hopes one would be better than Carlisle (who is consistently ranked as a top 5 coach by his peers). 

It'd have to take at least 2 years of underperforming or a colossal falling out with Luka/Cuban for Carlisle to get the boot, and he's earned that much leash at least.

[mavsluvr]

I have never worried about RC and his game knowledge or his overall adaptability as a coach as the game evolves. 

I have always worried most about....

1) ...how he handles players psychologically. 

2) ...his seeming stubbornness and desire to be in control. 


I think one or both of those will be his eventual undoing as a coach.

Really? You think Rick is facing an undoing as a coach?

The guy has over 800 victories. Over a 60% winning percentage. Despite coaching all those fair-to-middling Mavs rosters. Has taken numerous teams to the playoffs. Has won a championship.

Short of being put in prison for some crime of moral turpitude, it seems like his place in the coaching history books is pretty secure.

[khaled1987]

I think the biggest mistake was splitting the MLE. WCS, Burke and Terry aren´t top 8-10 rotation players on a playoff team. Mavs paid all of them more than the minimum. They had one shot to add another useful rotation player and ended up with two mediocre end of the bench pieces and a 2nd round pick.

Didn't the Mavs try to get Jae Crowder, Marc Gasol & Gallinari? And either got outbid or player vhoose differently?
I am not sure which MLE player was their to grab, but it looks to me they waned to pay one player but simply failed

[khaled1987]

 
It´s possible Bey/Terry suck and would never develop, even under different circumstances. Then the question needs to be raised whether the MBT/Scouting staff are good enough at their job.

But there are so many different layers to this, but let´s assume for a second that our assessment of Carlisle being extra tough on rookies and always leaning toward veterans is true, then the logical conclusion is that it only makes drafting harder, because the information gets skewed:

1. The raw young draft talent with major upside will always try to avoid getting drafted by the Mavs. Therefore manipulating their workouts/interviews negatively to decrease their chances to be selected by us.

2. The college veterans, who are not in high demand, will always come hard for the Mavs workouts, because they know we are one of their best chances to be selected at all. They are also generally more mature, because well they have 3-4 additional years of life experience.

Maybe that partially helps to explain our poor draft evalution.

If you were a talented rookie, would Dallas be one of your preferred destinations to get the necessary developmental minutes on the floor?

I guess all I´m saying is:: If you have a great reputation for young player development around the agents, that means the agents will be comfortable to tell their clients to go all out during the draft process. That means these teams will get much more perfect (honest) information about the draft talent pool than a franchise with a bad reputation.

Mavs always liked veterans before RC
I mean which freshman did we draft under Cuban and before RC that had any success? And what is the percentage? 

When folks were voicing anger with one and done rule in 2010, Cuban came out and said it should be 3 years in college rule, player should be ready for NBA

He then slammed college system because they aren't teaching players the right way.

You can fire RC and hire the most youth friendly coach and it won't change, the owner of the team himself is in that belief and his GM and coach are reflection of that.

PS: It hurts that the one time they gambled with youth, they took DSJ over Mitchell

[Kammrath]

Really? You think Rick is facing an undoing as a coach?

That was a complete misread of what I was saying.

I am not saying RC hasn't already solidified his legacy, I am just suggesting that something will happen where he runs into a player or group of players he doesn't mesh with and it will cause the end of his coaching career in DAL. That might be 10 years away, it might be one year away. Just a guess from my seat, nothing more.

[cow]

Didn't the Mavs try to get Jae Crowder, Marc Gasol & Gallinari? And either got outbid or player vhoose differently?
I am not sure which MLE player was their to grab, but it looks to me they waned to pay one player but simply failed

The failures are just more ammo for the ineptitude of the front office which in my mind is the bigger issue.  What's that saying about turning chicken shit into chicken salad?

[Fuerza1]

The guy has over 800 victories. Over a 60% winning percentage. Despite coaching all those fair-to-middling Mavs rosters. Has taken numerous teams to the playoffs. Has won a championship.

Carlisle's winning % is actually 54%. 

More importantly, his win % is below 50% in the last 10 seasons. But who's counting? I know it's not Cuban/Donnie.

[dirkfansince1998]

Didn't the Mavs try to get Jae Crowder, Marc Gasol & Gallinari? And either got outbid or player vhoose differently?
I am not sure which MLE player was their to grab, but it looks to me they waned to pay one player but simply failed

They tried to offer one year contracts. Team plan powder was still chasing the Giannis pipe dream and prefered max caspace in 2021.

[cow]

Carlisle's winning % is actually 54%. 

More importantly, his win % is below 50% in the last 10 seasons. But who's counting? I know it's not Cuban/Donnie.

Given the rosters on those squads, take your ideal coach and ask yourself how successful they might have been.