2020-2021 AROUND the NBA: Archived

[dynamicalVoid]

Has anybody played with more All-Stars while they were still All-Stars than LeBron?

This isnt directed at you...you just asked a question

The internet and cyborgs are hard to please.  What is someone like Lebron supposed to do though?

If he is better than Jordan but doesnt win the rings...they will say its all about the rings.

Or pull some intangibles argument..."He wasnt a killer like Michael".   I guess there are two definitions of Alpha...someone like Lebron who is about consolidating talent and winning...or guys like Dame who refuse to leave their team to go team up with other stars.  I thought it was about winning and Lebron is trying to win the game on and off the court.   Forget that he is a sensational basketball freak on both ends of the floor and has a top shelf IQ for the game.

Its like these arm chair GM's that talk trash about Jerry Jones resigning Dak Prescott.   They act like trading Dak and going with an unproven college quarter back is the smart thing to do(Money Ball).   These guys....if they actually had a GM job where they would get fired if they messed up a situation like that...would not trade Dak.   If I had a Million Dollar a year GM job...I am playing it safe to keep my job and provide for my family instead of getting fired and going back to making 100 thousand a year.

Its never about how good the player is...its about Rings!  If that doesnt win the argument...its about Intangibles!   Just keep moving the goal post because EVERY GM would pick Eli Manning over Tony Romo because of Rings if their job really depended on it.   

Who cares if Lebron plays with other stars if there is always going to be a legion/group that says good players arent good unless they win rings.

[Kammrath]

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron

[michaeltex]

Who cares if Lebron plays with other stars if there is always going to be a legion/group that says good players arent good unless they win rings.

It's not like Lebron is "just a guy" on any of his teams. Since he's been in the league, everyone knows who is the Alpha Dog on his team, although it took a few months to get the message across in MIA.

[HAguiar95]

Has anybody played with more All-Stars while they were still All-Stars than LeBron?

Hmmm.... 

KD so far: Westbrook, Curry, Thompson, Green, Irving, Harden and counting ......

[dynamicalVoid]

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron

I understand.

But...if my ability to provide for my family is on the line...Im taking the 6'8, built like a tank, can get to the rim at ease, elite passer, elite defender, makes everyone on his team better,  can guard 1-5,  high IQ player.  Doing it in an Era where most people on the court are pretty skilled.

Im not saying MJ doesnt have some qualities that are better than Lebron...I just think you go with the All Around safer player if your job is on the line.

[michaeltex]

Hmmm.... 

KD so far: Westbrook, Curry, Thompson, Green, Irving, Harden and counting ......

Not just All Stars. This list also includes 3 former league MVPs.

[SleepingHero]

But...if my ability to provide for my family is on the line.

The vet min in the NBA is 2.5 mil a year. 900k if you're a rookie. These guys aren't struggling to provide for their family unless they are terrible with money. Even 1 year of the bare minimum can set you up for a modest life for a very long time. 

These guys aren't making choices to team up for job security, they're doing it so they can win with the least amount of effort.


That's why people have a problem with Lebron (myself included). He manufactured the easiest possible situation after years of failure. In the face of adversity Lebron decided to take the easy way out. Unprecedented for a guy of that caliber. 

Now logically Lebron made the smartest choice on paper. But when we're evaluating the GOAT there is no set standard and no objectivity. It's an emotional answer. Thats why Lebron can never be the goat. How he left CLE, on top of making sure for the rest of his career he creates superteams has tainted his legacy whether he likes it or not.

[dynamicalVoid]

The vet min in the NBA is 2.5 mil a year. 900k if you're a rookie. These guys aren't struggling to provide for their family unless they are terrible with money. Even 1 year of the bare minimum can set you up for a modest life for a very long time. 

These guys aren't making choices to team up for job security, they're doing it so they can win with the least amount of effort.

Blame the "All about Rings" crowd.

And...Im talking about GM's making job securing decisions.   If you are Golden State GM you dont add KD because its not about winning...its about parity in the League right?  Is preserving parity in the League how you keep your job these days?  "IIm gonna pass on the KD acquisition opportunity and add THJ instead" 

Hopefully all these guys turn to having Dame's attitude.   If anything it makes the playoff games(games when teams are trying) more fun because the there arent lop-sided scores due to a team being top heavy on talent.

[SleepingHero]

Blame the "All about Rings" crowd.

And...Im talking about GM's making job securing decisions.   If you are Golden State GM you dont add KD because its not about winning...its about parity in the League right?

Hopefully all these guys turn to having Dame's attitude.   If anything it makes the playoff games(games when teams are trying) more fun because the there arent lop-sided scores due to a team being top heavy on talent.

I agree with you. These GM's would be fired on the spot if they didn't sign a player of KD's caliber if he wants to come. A GM's goal isn't parity, in fact its the opposite. He wants his team to beat everyone else's all the time. But thats not the case with what happened with Lebron. It wasn't the GM choosing Lebron but the other way around. Lebron manifested his destiny.

The league as a whole (adam Silver) should want to create a system that makes the most parity so EVERYONE has a chance. That keeps engagement from a fan perspective. 

Lebron usurped the status quo. He bucked all the traditionality of the player/team relationship, and he made it so that there was absolutely NO parity in his conference and created on paper the best team in the league overnight.

Again, it's hard to fault Lebron because on paper he made the most logical choice. In fact he's a genius because he became probably the most powerful player the league has ever seen. But in doing so he's tainted his legacy. At least in my eyes and I'm sure many others.

[ItsGoTime]

I understand.

But...if my ability to provide for my family is on the line...Im taking the 6'8, built like a tank, can get to the rim at ease, elite passer, elite defender, makes everyone on his team better,  can guard 1-5,  high IQ player.  Doing it in an Era where most people on the court are pretty skilled.

Im not saying MJ doesnt have some qualities that are better than Lebron...I just think you go with the All Around safer player if your job is on the line.

I'll take MJ 10 times out of 10 in that scenario.

[dynamicalVoid]

I agree with you. These GM's would be fired on the spot if they didn't sign a player of KD's caliber if he wants to come. A GM's goal isn't parity, in fact its the opposite. He wants his team to beat everyone else's all the time. But thats not the case with what happened with Lebron. It wasn't the GM choosing Lebron but the other way around. Lebron manifested his destiny.

The league as a whole (adam Silver) should want to create a system that makes the most parity so EVERYONE has a chance. That keeps engagement from a fan perspective. 

Lebron usurped the status quo. He bucked all the traditionality of the player/team relationship, and he made it so that there was absolutely NO parity in his conference and created on paper the best team in the league overnight.

Again, it's hard to fault Lebron because on paper he made the most logical choice. In fact he's a genius because he became probably the most powerful player the league has ever seen. But in doing so he's tainted his legacy. At least in my eyes and I'm sure many others.

The way I see it...LeBron, and rightfully so, saw himself as having the skill and talent to be the best ever.

He wants that Title.

It is he and Michael in the convo.   No one is saying Bill Russell is the best ever because of his rings...its Michael is better than LeBron because of rings.

LeBron wants to end the conversation.

---

I'll take MJ 10 times out of 10 in that scenario.

I wouldnt.

I think Joel Embiid bodies MJ if MJ's teammates go down and MJ has to guard him.  

I think LeBron can challenge Embiid.

LeBron is more of a Swiss Army knife than MJ.

[ItsGoTime]

I think Joel Embiid bodies MJ if MJ's teammates go down and MJ has to guard him.  

We're talking about THE MJ, right? Where does Joel Embiid come into this also? Where is your scenario going? I mean, LeBron and a bunch of all stars and MJ and no all stars, sure...I'm taking that TEAM. But put Hakeem on Embiid and Embiid doesn't know what to do with himself.

[dynamicalVoid]

I'll take MJ 10 times out of 10 in that scenario.

Also...

And I didnt do the research...I am only going by a video in which someone tries to analyze the greatest NBA players...

And...Im sure how the video was made and how things were measured are not perfect...

In Ben Taylors series THinking Basketball The Greatest Peak...Ben points out that MJ opted for hero ball instead of the better basketball play often.

Its funny...because everyone on here likes Luka for making good basketball plays.

I think Lebrons ability to guard 1-5 if needed, his size, his IQ and his willingness to make the best basketball play more consistently than Jordan is why I would take Lebron if I was a GM who had something of significant value on the line in making the decision.

Rings, Clutch shooting, killer instinct...you can opt to go that direction.   In a real honest conversation...I think most would agree you are taking on more risk.

[ItsGoTime]

Also...

And I didnt do the research...I am only going by a video in which someone tries to analyze the greatest NBA players...

And...Im sure how the video was made and how things were measured are not perfect...

In Ben Taylors series THinking Basketball The Greatest Peak...Ben points out that MJ opted for hero ball instead of the better basketball play often.

Its funny...because everyone on here likes Luka for making good basketball plays.

I think Lebrons ability to guard 1-5 if needed, his size, his IQ and his willingness to make the best basketball play more consistently than Jordan is why I would take Lebron if I was a GM who had something of significant value on the line in making the decision.

Rings, Clutch shooting, killer instinct...you can opt to go that direction.   In a real honest conversation...I think most would agree you are taking on more risk.

Great, and you would lose to my MJ team. Good talk.

[ClutchDirk]

LeBron got his first lesson in Clutch shooting from Dirk..

[StepBackJay]

Dang Lamarcus Aldridge retiring over health.

[Lucky Luciano]

I understand.

But...if my ability to provide for my family is on the line...Im taking the 6'8, built like a tank, can get to the rim at ease, elite passer, elite defender, makes everyone on his team better,  can guard 1-5,  high IQ player.  Doing it in an Era where most people on the court are pretty skilled.

Im not saying MJ doesnt have some qualities that are better than Lebron...I just think you go with the All Around safer player if your job is on the line.

If my ability to provide for my family is on the line I'm taking MJ 10/10 times before any other player period. Its not even close.

[Jason Terry]

Lebron is probably the best athlete to ever play basketball but still not the goat

It’s about the total package. Lebron the athlete. Russell with the rings. Magic and Bird changed the game in a big way. MJ is the total package though. And that’s what makes him the GOAT. He has the rings and they aren’t cheap rings. They’re loyal rings. And there’s always the “what if” of had he never played baseball(in the middle of his prime) in tribute to his dad. Not all rings are equal as evidenced by Dirk(I’d take Dirks 1 over all of Durant’s). And it’s not just about the NBA rings either. He was clutch in winning a championship for one of the most storied colleges of all time(something nobody does anymore). Yes, these new guys will break all the all time stats, but MJ still put up great all time numbers and has several mostly per game numbers that will be impressive forever. Era played matters in context as well. MJ played professionally in two sports. He might not be the best athlete ever in the NBA, but he’s all time great in sports history because of the dual sports angle. MJ was the first athlete to make himself a true brand and that will last longer than any other in history. Perhaps his greatest legacy though is taking what Magic and Bird lifted up and turning into an even greater success moving forward. The undisputed leader of the Dream Team that first brought basketball to the entire world. 

Without Jordan there’s no Luka Doncic. MJ is who Luka’s father idolized and the main reason why the euro game went so far

Even Dirk probably changed the game more than Lebron. Dirk contributed new moves and ushered in a tidal wave of euro players that still has an effect today. Not to mention totally revolutionizing the PF position. What has Lebron done? He turned the game into AAU. He does nothing but cry about how the world doesn’t give the king his crown for best ever. If he wants respect then he should earn it................having said all that though. Lebron still has a chance to reshape his legacy(not that he will actually do what needs to be done). Lebron’s path would be closer to Muhammad Ali. He has enough fanboy power in the most popular sports league to influence true change politically. It’s too risky for his brand though and he will never sacrifice the $. All Lebron has is that one Cavs championship. He pillaged every franchise he was on and gamed the system bringing in all stars, trading all their draft picks, and adding these fraud “ring chasers”. He wants so badly to be goat, but he won’t. Not even with 7 rings if he got them

[BasketballJones41]

Lebron is probably the best athlete to ever play basketball but still not the goat

It’s about the total package. Lebron the athlete. Russell with the rings. Magic and Bird changed the game in a big way. MJ is the total package though. And that’s what makes him the GOAT. He has the rings and they aren’t cheap rings. They’re loyal rings. And there’s always the “what if” of had he never played baseball(in the middle of his prime) in tribute to his dad. Not all rings are equal as evidenced by Dirk(I’d take Dirks 1 over all of Durant’s). And it’s not just about the NBA rings either. He was clutch in winning a championship for one of the most storied colleges of all time(something nobody does anymore). Yes, these new guys will break all the all time stats, but MJ still put up great all time numbers and has several mostly per game numbers that will be impressive forever. Era played matters in context as well. MJ played professionally in two sports. He might not be the best athlete ever in the NBA, but he’s all time great in sports history because of the dual sports angle. MJ was the first athlete to make himself a true brand and that will last longer than any other in history. Perhaps his greatest legacy though is taking what Magic and Bird lifted up and turning into an even greater success moving forward. The undisputed leader of the Dream Team that first brought basketball to the entire world. 

Without Jordan there’s no Luka Doncic. MJ is who Luka’s father idolized and the main reason why the euro game went so far

Even Dirk probably changed the game more than Lebron. Dirk contributed new moves and ushered in a tidal wave of euro players that still has an effect today. Not to mention totally revolutionizing the PF position. What has Lebron done? He turned the game into AAU. He does nothing but cry about how the world doesn’t give the king his crown for best ever. If he wants respect then he should earn it................having said all that though. Lebron still has a chance to reshape his legacy(not that he will actually do what needs to be done). Lebron’s path would be closer to Muhammad Ali. He has enough fanboy power in the most popular sports league to influence true change politically. It’s too risky for his brand though and he will never sacrifice the $. All Lebron has is that one Cavs championship. He pillaged every franchise he was on and gamed the system bringing in all stars, trading all their draft picks, and adding these fraud “ring chasers”. He wants so badly to be goat, but he won’t. Not even with 7 rings if he got them

+ freaking 41

[dynamicalVoid]

We're talking about THE MJ, right? Where does Joel Embiid come into this also? Where is your scenario going? I mean, LeBron and a bunch of all stars and MJ and no all stars, sure...I'm taking that TEAM. But put Hakeem on Embiid and Embiid doesn't know what to do with himself.

oK...Ill take the bait.   I think you know what I meant...but maybe you dont as what I said about Embiid could possibly be read wrong.

Im not talking about LeBron and a bunch of All-Stars(Embiid on his team)...I am talking about LeBron's ability to guard 1-5.

I am saying that I dont think MJ can guard good centers.   LeBron can step in if absolutely needed and actually challenge good centers.   I used Embiid as an example.   I think Embiid abuses MJ.  I think LeBron could actually make things difficult for Embiid.