Porzingis Postup Debate - Rick Carlisle vs TNT

[Dahlsim]

- Some good points and counterarguments in this video, which some people have already discussed in this thread
Not just about KP posting up but value of overall post play in general..

 

Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing. Its worth summarizing I think.  

Its worth noting at the beginning that TNT guys Charles and Shaq actually point out that the driving paint shot they show of KP does fit in the type of shot they 'have no problem with' and think they should see more vs. the long 3's even though he missed the gimme almost point blank shot he earned.   You have to think if he took more of those, which wasn't a 'post up' but was a close to the basket paint shot he would have to get a good touch back and high %. 

The video does make a number of the points that have been described in this thread but it also makes a few significant additional points. 
Their analysis agrees with Carlisle that KP has been a poor post up option and therefore coach's position makes sense as to why that's not the way they use him in their offense.  On the other hand they also point out that KP is missing shots including shots in the post that he was better at in New York.  They said he was 16th in the league in the Post out of 50 players with at least 100 post ups while right now he's showing the same rust on his shots off the post up that his 3 pt % is showing.  They conclude it's silly to go entirely away from it. 

They point out that by his last season in NY before injury he had reached almost 40% 3pt but overall they completely disagree that KP has proven to be 'historically' great out on the perimeter above the break.  Perhaps the potential is there because as they say the stroke looks good and this year you have to allow for rust coming back from the long injury absence. 

Back to post ups though.  We've now seen a couple of recent Mavs clunkers, including dents in that vaunted #1 offensive showing teams adjusting and learning to slow it down or even shut it down, Thunder, Lakers. 

They point out that Luka's effectiveness and value off of post ups for the Mavericks defies Carlisle's position on the value of the post up for the Mavs. Because Luka scores well and is a great passer out of the post its appears that Mavs should be using this more.   
They make a great point about post up play increasing your team's odds of getting offensive rebounds and that the straight post up putbacks could rightly be charted as part of the original post up shots efficiency itself since it comes as a direct result of the post up.  That analysis would change that true shooting % in measuring the efficiency of the post up. 

They make a point about the effectiveness of the post again not measured directly just by converting the post up but by its ability to generate high percentage and efficient shots off passes to cutters and generate high quality 3 point shots which the analytic darlings love the most.  
They cite the great GSW teams as a great case in point as they generate a lot of high quality offense with post ups as the setup. 

A lot of this supports my general sense that while the Mavs get good overall offensive numbers, they still miss out by not having these type of inside scoring options as viable in their system.   This shows as the Mavs struggling more often they should generating tough baskets when the defense slows the pace and is able to force 1/2 court creation. This plays into a higher number of empty possessions and turnovers when trying to hold a lead against teams that raised their defensive focus.  That means losing leads to big runs faster than they normally should.

[hakeemfan]

- Some good points and counterarguments in this video, which some people have already discussed in this thread
Not just about KP posting up but value of overall post play in general..

 

Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing. Its worth summarizing I think.  

Its worth noting at the beginning that TNT guys Charles and Shaq actually point out that the driving paint shot they show of KP does fit in the type of shot they 'have no problem with' and think they should see more vs. the long 3's even though he missed the gimme almost point blank shot he earned.   You have to think if he took more of those, which wasn't a 'post up' but was a close to the basket paint shot he would have to get a good touch back and high %. 

The video does make a number of the points that have been described in this thread but it also makes a few significant additional points. 
Their analysis agrees with Carlisle that KP has been a poor post up option and therefore coach's position makes sense as to why that's not the way they use him in their offense.  On the other hand they also point out that KP is missing shots including shots in the post that he was better at in New York.  They said he was 16th in the league in the Post out of 50 players with at least 100 post ups while right now he's showing the same rust on his shots off the post up that his 3 pt % is showing.  They conclude it's silly to go entirely away from it. 

They point out that by his last season in NY before injury he had reached almost 40% 3pt but overall they completely disagree that KP has proven to be 'historically' great out on the perimeter above the break.  Perhaps the potential is there because as they say the stroke looks good and this year you have to allow for rust coming back from the long injury absence. 

Back to post ups though.  We've now seen a couple of recent Mavs clunkers, including dents in that vaunted #1 offensive showing teams adjusting and learning to slow it down or even shut it down, Thunder, Lakers. 

They point out that Luka's effectiveness and value off of post ups for the Mavericks defies Carlisle's position on the value of the post up for the Mavs. Because Luka scores well and is a great passer out of the post its appears that Mavs should be using this more.   
They make a great point about post up play increasing your team's odds of getting offensive rebounds and that the straight post up putbacks could rightly be charted as part of the original post up shots efficiency itself since it comes as a direct result of the post up.  That analysis would change that true shooting % in measuring the efficiency of the post up. 

They make a point about the effectiveness of the post again not measured directly just by converting the post up but by its ability to generate high percentage and efficient shots off passes to cutters and generate high quality 3 point shots which the analytic darlings love the most.  
They cite the great GSW teams as a great case in point as they generate a lot of high quality offense with post ups as the setup. 

A lot of this supports my general sense that while the Mavs get good overall offensive numbers, they still miss out by not having these type of inside scoring options as viable in their system.   This shows as the Mavs struggling more often they should generating tough baskets when the defense slows the pace and is able to force 1/2 court creation. This plays into a higher number of empty possessions and turnovers when trying to hold a lead against teams that raised their defensive focus.  That means losing leads to big runs faster than they normally should.

Excellent points. Would give the post more likes if I could.  

The only team that could depend upon the 3 as their go to shot was the Warriors.  Every other team while they needed the outside shot also needed physical play closer to the basket. 

Regardless of trends, in the playoffs the game slows down and it comes to half court sets. I am not that concerned about this season. I just want Luka to develop the mindset that Kidd (who called the plays during our title run) had in terms of running higher percentage plays.  3 pt shots that flow naturally after probing inside and passing around are fine. Poor 3 pt shots are not. A few will go in and win you games but it builds up bad habits in the long run.

[Fuerza1]

That bball breakdown video is very telling and is an indictment on Carlisle. For me, he'll get a pass this year assuming we make the playoffs but next season, this offense definitely needs to add more layers. 

Dan Schwartzman posted the clutch stats in the other thread regarding our top 3 scorers.

As a team, the Mavs are near the bottom in scoring and efficiency in the CLUTCH. Furthermore, we are dead last in assists as well. When you compare them to other above .500 teams, the Mavs lag significantly behind.

These above .500 teams are the ones you play in the postseason. The inability to finish is a major red flag and exposes the offensive system. How is the "best offense ever" so bad in clutch situations? 

IMO, we are seeing too much hero ball, less ball movement, which results in predictability. It's pretty much Luka and 4 spot up shooters down the stretch. 

After 43 mins in the game, opposing defenses have a good feel for what shots you're targeting; on top of that, the adrenaline is sky high and the defensive intensity ramps up. We need more tricks up our sleeves when the going gets tough.

[fifteenth]

Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing. Its worth summarizing I think.  

Its worth noting at the beginning that TNT guys Charles and Shaq actually point out that the driving paint shot they show of KP does fit in the type of shot they 'have no problem with' and think they should see more vs. the long 3's even though he missed the gimme almost point blank shot he earned.   You have to think if he took more of those, which wasn't a 'post up' but was a close to the basket paint shot he would have to get a good touch back and high %. 

The video does make a number of the points that have been described in this thread but it also makes a few significant additional points. 
Their analysis agrees with Carlisle that KP has been a poor post up option and therefore coach's position makes sense as to why that's not the way they use him in their offense.  On the other hand they also point out that KP is missing shots including shots in the post that he was better at in New York.  They said he was 16th in the league in the Post out of 50 players with at least 100 post ups while right now he's showing the same rust on his shots off the post up that his 3 pt % is showing.  They conclude it's silly to go entirely away from it. 

They point out that by his last season in NY before injury he had reached almost 40% 3pt but overall they completely disagree that KP has proven to be 'historically' great out on the perimeter above the break.  Perhaps the potential is there because as they say the stroke looks good and this year you have to allow for rust coming back from the long injury absence. 

Back to post ups though.  We've now seen a couple of recent Mavs clunkers, including dents in that vaunted #1 offensive showing teams adjusting and learning to slow it down or even shut it down, Thunder, Lakers. 

They point out that Luka's effectiveness and value off of post ups for the Mavericks defies Carlisle's position on the value of the post up for the Mavs. Because Luka scores well and is a great passer out of the post its appears that Mavs should be using this more.   
They make a great point about post up play increasing your team's odds of getting offensive rebounds and that the straight post up putbacks could rightly be charted as part of the original post up shots efficiency itself since it comes as a direct result of the post up.  That analysis would change that true shooting % in measuring the efficiency of the post up. 

They make a point about the effectiveness of the post again not measured directly just by converting the post up but by its ability to generate high percentage and efficient shots off passes to cutters and generate high quality 3 point shots which the analytic darlings love the most.  
They cite the great GSW teams as a great case in point as they generate a lot of high quality offense with post ups as the setup. 

A lot of this supports my general sense that while the Mavs get good overall offensive numbers, they still miss out by not having these type of inside scoring options as viable in their system.   This shows as the Mavs struggling more often they should generating tough baskets when the defense slows the pace and is able to force 1/2 court creation. This plays into a higher number of empty possessions and turnovers when trying to hold a lead against teams that raised their defensive focus.  That means losing leads to big runs faster than they normally should.

That is a great video, and great points by you Dahl. I've been opposing you throughout this thread so I better get by butt down here in the post (like the video said) and give you props when you make great points.

---

As a team, the Mavs are near the bottom in scoring and efficiency in the CLUTCH. Furthermore, we are dead last in assists as well. When you compare them to other above .500 teams, the Mavs lag significantly behind.

Aren't those clutch stats dependent generated only when the score is close? I think two things are at work here. (1) They been awful in the clutch recently and (2) they haven't logged much clutch time this season because of so many of their wins have been blow outs or at least by good margins. They seem to win big or lose close. 

So, yes, they've been awful in clutch time, but the stats are skewed because their wins haven't required clutch time. 

Playing well in the clutch is one of the development milestones of a young team. They have to learn this, but it is something that has to be learned. They'll have to hit this milestone before they can think about being effective in the playoffs.

[hakeemfan]

The best part about all this is that we have the pieces for the fix. Luka is an excellent low post player and also an excellent PnR guard. It is just a matter of the team having more deliberate set plays during clutch time to use those things and KP’s mid range game primarily, than looking for 3 pt shots.

[Scott41theMavs]

The best part about all this is that we have the pieces for the fix. Luka is an excellent low post player and also an excellent PnR guard. It is just a matter of the team having more deliberate set plays during clutch time to use those things and KP’s mid range game primarily, than looking for 3 pt shots.

Could it justly be said that if the Mavs don't coach KP into being a good (eventually great?) pick and roll player that they should never have traded for him?

[reckoner07]

- Some good points and counterarguments in this video, which some people have already discussed in this thread
Not just about KP posting up but value of overall post play in general..

 

Excellent piece! Thanks for sharing. Its worth summarizing I think.  

Its worth noting at the beginning that TNT guys Charles and Shaq actually point out that the driving paint shot they show of KP does fit in the type of shot they 'have no problem with' and think they should see more vs. the long 3's even though he missed the gimme almost point blank shot he earned.   You have to think if he took more of those, which wasn't a 'post up' but was a close to the basket paint shot he would have to get a good touch back and high %. 

The video does make a number of the points that have been described in this thread but it also makes a few significant additional points. 
Their analysis agrees with Carlisle that KP has been a poor post up option and therefore coach's position makes sense as to why that's not the way they use him in their offense.  On the other hand they also point out that KP is missing shots including shots in the post that he was better at in New York.  They said he was 16th in the league in the Post out of 50 players with at least 100 post ups while right now he's showing the same rust on his shots off the post up that his 3 pt % is showing.  They conclude it's silly to go entirely away from it. 

They point out that by his last season in NY before injury he had reached almost 40% 3pt but overall they completely disagree that KP has proven to be 'historically' great out on the perimeter above the break.  Perhaps the potential is there because as they say the stroke looks good and this year you have to allow for rust coming back from the long injury absence. 

Back to post ups though.  We've now seen a couple of recent Mavs clunkers, including dents in that vaunted #1 offensive showing teams adjusting and learning to slow it down or even shut it down, Thunder, Lakers. 

They point out that Luka's effectiveness and value off of post ups for the Mavericks defies Carlisle's position on the value of the post up for the Mavs. Because Luka scores well and is a great passer out of the post its appears that Mavs should be using this more.   
They make a great point about post up play increasing your team's odds of getting offensive rebounds and that the straight post up putbacks could rightly be charted as part of the original post up shots efficiency itself since it comes as a direct result of the post up.  That analysis would change that true shooting % in measuring the efficiency of the post up. 

They make a point about the effectiveness of the post again not measured directly just by converting the post up but by its ability to generate high percentage and efficient shots off passes to cutters and generate high quality 3 point shots which the analytic darlings love the most.  
They cite the great GSW teams as a great case in point as they generate a lot of high quality offense with post ups as the setup. 

A lot of this supports my general sense that while the Mavs get good overall offensive numbers, they still miss out by not having these type of inside scoring options as viable in their system.   This shows as the Mavs struggling more often they should generating tough baskets when the defense slows the pace and is able to force 1/2 court creation. This plays into a higher number of empty possessions and turnovers when trying to hold a lead against teams that raised their defensive focus.  That means losing leads to big runs faster than they normally should.

 
Here's where the video misses:

1.  Carlisle says, it's not beneficial to post Luka, except sometimes when Luka is sometimes matched on a smaller guy. Guy ignores latter part of Rick's statement, and begins talking about how they should post him up, up to 4 times a game - when he's on smaller guys.

2. The guy tries to make the argument of how many cuts come out of the post for other teams and players. That's' not how this offense is designed, and it's not how Rick wants his offense to flow.  Point being that this offense doesn't gain as much assist value from KP in the post, versus what he might produce with another team.  

3. The assumption that the video makes about "what about the rebounds? what about the assists? these have to count!" is silly. All of that is built into the robust statistical models that the PhD statisticians use.

4.  The guy started out great basically showing how KP can't post up well because of his high center of gravity.  I thought we were fundamentally on track there. Then he went off the rails.

5. I think the video misses that Carlisle was using hyperbole around his general beliefs to create a little bit of absurdity in response to the TNT guys... trolling them, trying to get them going with more. "KP is a historically efficient shooter" - come on man, Rick is not dumb. That is 100% intentional.

wug?

[Dahlsim]

That is a great video, and great points by you Dahl. I've been opposing you throughout this thread so I better get by butt down here in the post (like the video said) and give you props when you make great points.

.... 

All good my friend.  It's just what we do.    

BTW, So much of what they talk about in that video was on display last night against the Nets during Boban's 12 minutes on the floor.  
Highly efficient offense that actually kept the interior defenders totally preoccupied generating good looks outside as well as offense at the rim.

[LukTheShadow]

That is 100% intentional.

wug?

Howg!

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btZCvEw.../giphy.gif

[hakeemfan]

The best part about all this is that we have the pieces for the fix. Luka is an excellent low post player and also an excellent PnR guard.  It is just a matter of the team having more deliberate set plays during clutch time to use those things and KP’s mid range game primarily, than looking for 3 pt shots.

Could it justly be said that if the Mavs don't coach KP into being a good (eventually great?) pick and roll player that they should never have traded for him?

KP with just  his defense, rebounding, and shooting from the outside makes it a no brainer to trade for him.  However he is capable of much more  That’s the beauty of this. There is so much more left to be tapped there.

---

That is a great video, and great points by you Dahl. I've been opposing you throughout this thread so I better get by butt down here in the post (like the video said) and give you props when you make great points.

.... 

All good my friend.  It's just what we do.    

BTW, So much of what they talk about in that video was on display last night against the Nets during Boban's 12 minutes on the floor.  
Highly efficient offense that actually kept the interior defenders totally preoccupied generating good looks outside as well as offense at the rim.

I took a Swimming 101 class in college. I never learned to breathe correctly. To pass the finals I had to swim 1 lap back and forth an Olympic size pool. I took exactly 1 breath in the middle of each half lap and swam the length. My teacher said I don’t know whether to congratulate you or strangle you. 

When I watch games like yesterday, I am reminded of that line. While wins are always good, I am not a fan of those 3s that Luka took. Those are heroball shots that look awesome when they go in. That’s now how I want him to progress as a player. I would still like him to probe inside for a better shot first. I am starting to wonder though if it is already too late. Something in his brain is itching to take those shots.

[Thukydides]

The best part about all this is that we have the pieces for the fix. Luka is an excellent low post player and also an excellent PnR guard.  It is just a matter of the team having more deliberate set plays during clutch time to use those things and KP’s mid range game primarily, than looking for 3 pt shots.

Could it justly be said that if the Mavs don't coach KP into being a good (eventually great?) pick and roll player that they should never have traded for him?

KP with just  his defense, rebounding, and shooting from the outside makes it a no brainer to trade for him.  However he is capable of much more  That’s the beauty of this. There is so much more left to be tapped there.

---

That is a great video, and great points by you Dahl. I've been opposing you throughout this thread so I better get by butt down here in the post (like the video said) and give you props when you make great points.

.... 

All good my friend.  It's just what we do.    

BTW, So much of what they talk about in that video was on display last night against the Nets during Boban's 12 minutes on the floor.  
Highly efficient offense that actually kept the interior defenders totally preoccupied generating good looks outside as well as offense at the rim.

I took a Swimming 101 class in college. I never learned to breathe correctly. To pass the finals I had to swim 1 lap back and forth an Olympic size pool. I took exactly 1 breath in the middle of each half lap and swam the length. My teacher said I don’t know whether to congratulate you or strangle you. 

When I watch games like yesterday, I am reminded of that line. While wins are always good, I am not a fan of those 3s that Luka took. Those are heroball shots that look awesome when they go in. That’s now how I want him to progress as a player. I would still like him to probe inside for a better shot first. I am starting to wonder though if it is already too late. Something in his brain is itching to take those shots.

I said it in another thread. I identify two triggers, that make Luka shoot those threes: 1) He feels, he´s hot. 2) He is gassed. 

Yesterday was 1) thanks to the new rotation pattern. Against OKC it was 2). I don´t like it either, but I think RC is on the right track by trying to keep him away from fatigue and thus enable him to have the energy to focus on drives late in games. If he gets hot in those cases like yesterday, that´s the best scenario.

[fifteenth]

I said it in another thread. I identify two triggers, that make Luka shoot those threes: 1) He feels, he´s hot. 2) He is gassed. 

You're missing a third trigger that, when capitalized upon, I back completely.

Luka uses the 3 off the dribble as a viable weapon that opens up his driving game. If the defender sags too far or hedges in other ways to defend the drive, Luka shoots the 3. He scores at a decent clip on that shot and so it brings the defender back up on him on subsequent possessions so that Luka can blow him and get into the lane.

When Luka shoots the 3 off the dribble when triggered by a sagging or hedging defender it is absolutely the right play.

Fans are kind of double minded about this. We criticize Ben Simmons for his inability to punish sagging defenders and then call Luka's 3s off the dribble "hero ball".

This forum historically has mistakenly criticized Barea for the same thing. The best pnr ball handlers make this read and punish defenders for sagging and hedging, and end up with more opportunities to drive because if it.

[ItsGoTime]

I said it in another thread. I identify two triggers, that make Luka shoot those threes: 1) He feels, he´s hot. 2) He is gassed. 

You're missing a third trigger that, when capitalized upon, I back completely.

Luka uses the 3 off the dribble as a viable weapon that opens up his driving game. If the defender sags too far or hedges in other ways to defend the drive, Luka shoots the 3. He scores at a decent clip on that shot and so it brings the defender back up on him on subsequent possessions so that Luka can blow him and get into the lane.

When Luka shoots the 3 off the dribble when triggered by a sagging or hedging defender it is absolutely the right play.

Fans are kind of double minded about this. We criticize Ben Simmons for his inability to punish sagging defenders and then call Luka's 3s off the dribble "hero ball".

This forum historically has mistakenly criticized Barea for the same thing. The best pnr ball handlers make this read and punish defenders for sagging and hedging, and end up with more opportunities to drive because if it.

Haven't checked the stats on this, but it seems when he does the fake drive, step back 3, that is his best rhythm shot. Everytime I see the setup for that, I feel very confident it will go in. I remember a few times where he looked gassed when it hasn't, but for the most part, that's a must see multiple times per game rhythm shot.

[hakeemfan]

I said it in another thread. I identify two triggers, that make Luka shoot those threes: 1) He feels, he´s hot. 2) He is gassed. 

You're missing a third trigger that, when capitalized upon, I back completely.

Luka uses the 3 off the dribble as a viable weapon that opens up his driving game. If the defender sags too far or hedges in other ways to defend the drive, Luka shoots the 3. He scores at a decent clip on that shot and so it brings the defender back up on him on subsequent possessions so that Luka can blow him and get into the lane.

When Luka shoots the 3 off the dribble when triggered by a sagging or hedging defender it is absolutely the right play.

Fans are kind of double minded about this. We criticize Ben Simmons for his inability to punish sagging defenders and then call Luka's 3s off the dribble "hero ball".

This forum historically has mistakenly criticized Barea for the same thing. The best pnr ball handlers make this read and punish defenders for sagging and hedging, and end up with more opportunities to drive because if it.

fif.  There is no difference between being afraid to shoot and a primary ball handler always thinking of himself as the first option.  In the end both will doom you.    

I understand the need for Luka to keep defenses honest. I also think he is a much better shooter than his percentages indicate mainly because he takes quite a few bad shots.  I have also always argued just against efficiency because too many players are scared to take the big shot using the excuse of efficiency. 

So I am definitely not opposed to Luka shooting. What I am opposed to is in the clutch continuing to dribble mainly to look primarily for a long shot.  KD’s biggest shot as a Warrior was dribbling down and taking a cold blooded 3.  We all live for moments like those. However if you do that predominantly in the clutch then you are not playing team basketball. Have to be more judicious.

[fifteenth]

However if you do that predominantly in the clutch then you are not playing team basketball. Have to be more judicious.

I'm not suggesting that the scenario I outlined is the only time he takes 3s off the dribble. And I think he has room to grow regarding when to get shots for others and when to call his own number.

[Dahlsim]

The best part about all this is that we have the pieces for the fix. Luka is an excellent low post player and also an excellent PnR guard.  It is just a matter of the team having more deliberate set plays during clutch time to use those things and KP’s mid range game primarily, than looking for 3 pt shots.

Could it justly be said that if the Mavs don't coach KP into being a good (eventually great?) pick and roll player that they should never have traded for him?

KP with just  his defense, rebounding, and shooting from the outside makes it a no brainer to trade for him.  However he is capable of much more  That’s the beauty of this. There is so much more left to be tapped there.

---

That is a great video, and great points by you Dahl. I've been opposing you throughout this thread so I better get by butt down here in the post (like the video said) and give you props when you make great points.

.... 

All good my friend.  It's just what we do.    

BTW, So much of what they talk about in that video was on display last night against the Nets during Boban's 12 minutes on the floor.  
Highly efficient offense that actually kept the interior defenders totally preoccupied generating good looks outside as well as offense at the rim.

I took a Swimming 101 class in college. I never learned to breathe correctly. To pass the finals I had to swim 1 lap back and forth an Olympic size pool. I took exactly 1 breath in the middle of each half lap and swam the length. My teacher said I don’t know whether to congratulate you or strangle you. 

When I watch games like yesterday, I am reminded of that line. While wins are always good, I am not a fan of those 3s that Luka took. Those are heroball shots that look awesome when they go in. That’s now how I want him to progress as a player. I would still like him to probe inside for a better shot first. I am starting to wonder though if it is already too late. Something in his brain is itching to take those shots.

Back on the old DB.com forum I recall debates about what NBA player Luka would compare and this was before he was drafted.  You might recall I cited Harden and Larry Bird.   

Luka has since reminded many more people of Harden even though he's not the same athlete has Harden.  He has the BBIQ and gets where he wants on the floor to score or pass.  

That said, this element of letting your star take shots even when they are for everyone else bad shots is also a similarity I see between Luka and Harden.  Its basically because the guys IS a real star you have to take the good with bad to some degree.   You have to trust their BBIQ that they get a sense of when they have it going outside or don't have it soon enough to change the pace, get to the rim or get other people shots and ultimately help your team more than they hurt you. 

I like Luka even better than Harden in that respect because he's such a willing and talented passer that he's less likely to shoot you out of the gym vs shoot you into the gym than even Harden is and James definitely gives more than he takes.   

These guys have to accurately decide when they got it and when they don't like a Steph Curry during those bad-shots-for-anyone-else sequences. 
So yeah, I'm with you on that HK, with a hero we're going have to accept some heroball but as Luka's game matures we hope to see his bbiq lead to more herotime and less heroball time.

[hakeemfan]

Agreed Dahl and you were correct with your early assessment of Luka pre draft. All of us are on the same page that this guy is a stud and the nitpicking is only because we don’t want him ending up like a Russ or Harden.


Luka doesn’t aggressively flop or hook looking for the refs to bail him out. That is a big difference for me. Harden as he progressed in the playoffs almost seemed like he lost trust in his ability to score and his go to move was baiting the refs.

[Dahlsim]

Agreed Dahl and you were correct with your early assessment of Luka pre draft. All of us are on the same page that this guy is a stud and the nitpicking is only because we don’t want him ending up like a Russ or Harden. 


Luka doesn’t aggressively flop or hook looking for the refs to bail him out.  That is a big difference for me.  Harden as he progressed in the playoffs almost seemed like he lost trust in his ability to score and his go to move was baiting the refs.

Great point.  That issue I blame on the league more so than the players.  

Once the refs start letting stars like Harden, Giannis, Russ and Lebron get away with things regular players can't get away with like driving into people and knocking them backwards with a shoulder ram, or blatantly hooking etc. the other stars like Luka have to decide what they can and can't get way with on behalf of their team or else be prepared to lose calls and lose games. 

Right now it looks to me like Luka is getting beat up waaay too much for a star player and its taking a toll on his body.  I guess it because he's only in his second year but the refs don't seem to be protecting him nearly as much as the other stars at his level of production.

[hakeemfan]

From ESPN:

"I think the NBA made a big mistake when everybody tried to model themselves after the Golden State Warriors," Barkley says. "The Golden State Warriors had the three greatest shooters who ever lived. So, everybody starts shootin' 3s. There are seven teams shooting more 3s in the last two years than the Golden State Warriors. We know the Rockets are an anomaly.

"But the notion that six other teams would shoot more 3s than the three greatest shooters that ever lived, that's stupid, and asinine."

[ItsGoTime]

From ESPN:

"I think the NBA made a big mistake when everybody tried to model themselves after the Golden State Warriors," Barkley says. "The Golden State Warriors had the three greatest shooters who ever lived. So, everybody starts shootin' 3s. There are seven teams shooting more 3s in the last two years than the Golden State Warriors. We know the Rockets are an anomaly.

"But the notion that six other teams would shoot more 3s than the three greatest shooters that ever lived, that's stupid, and asinine."

So old school and antiquated. Who does that guy think he is?