Small-Ball Antidote???

[The Jom]

Ghost’s post in the trade thread got me thinking about the new-philosophy Mavs and how the current roster is built. Makes me want to ask these questions:

1. Which team in the league is better equipped to match up against small ball than this Mavs fivesome, Kyrie, Luka, DJJ, PJ, Maxi? (I suspect the answer is no one, not even close). 

2. Will playoff teams even try to play small against these Mavs? (If I’m Denver or Minny, I sure as hell wouldn’t. Not even sure who would.)

What do my comrades think?

[KillerLeft]

Ghost’s post in the trade thread got me thinking about the new-philosophy Mavs and how the current roster is built. Makes me want to ask these questions:

1. Which team in the league is better equipped to match up against small ball than this Mavs fivesome, Kyrie, Luka, DJJ, PJ, Maxi? (I suspect the answer is no one, not even close). 

2. Will playoff teams even try to play small against these Mavs? (If I’m Denver or Minny, I sure as hell wouldn’t. Not even sure who would.)

What do my comrades think?

The Mavs will 100% see some centerless basketball against the clippers in the first round. Lou is a target coach, so the flipside is that he hates switching, because he thinks it makes it easier for other teams to play target basketball against him. However, as we have seen many times, there is just only so long you can allow Luka to torture Zubac before you have to pull him. 

It’s important to understand that not every case of small ball by the opponent necessitates a small ball counter by the Mavericks.

Also, small ball might be best utilized by the Mavericks as a strategy, not a counter, in cases where the other team wants to play big. For example, I would absolutely plan to play some small ball against Minnesota. That is by far the easiest way to defeat them, in my humble opinion.

[The Jom]

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I haven’t watched the Clips this year except the two games vs. the good guys. So maybe I don’t understand how they utilize the current roster. But I don’t see how their small lineup is capable of competing against what I assume you are calling our smalls (PJ/Maxi).

Batum was the key to that team previously. Who do they man the middle with now when Zubac sits? I know you don’t think Plumlee is an answer. Is Daniel Theis? He looks only slightly more mobile than their other bigs to me. At 6-5, PJ Tucker can’t do it. Can Kawhi? PG?

I get your point about the Mavs choosing to go small. But again, I assume you mean Maxi at center. That’s not small in my book. Maxi is 6-10/240. He’s a modern center, yes. But he isn’t small. And PJ is certainly not an undersized 4. Or do you mean you think the Mavs will play PJ at the 5?

[youzigizag]

Minnesota has some lengthy players.

Is small ball to you all mean the other teams players have to be able to shoot/score?

Because:

Edwards
McDaniels
Alexander-Walker
Reid

Are all switchable if I am not mistaken. Reid can drain 3's too. They have Conley, Slo-mo, Warren.

Seems like they have guys to play small to me...and arent major liabilities.

Edwards and McDaniels have already shut Luka and Kyrie down before late game. Alexander-Walker has long arms like DJJ. Reid is better than Maxi.

What am I missing?

[michaeltex]

The Mavs will 100% see some centerless basketball against the clippers in the first round. Lou is a target coach, so the flipside is that he hates switching, because he thinks it makes it easier for other teams to play target basketball against him. However, as we have seen many times, there is just only so long you can allow Luka to torture Zubac before you have to pull him. 

It’s important to understand that not every case of small ball by the opponent necessitates a small ball counter by the Mavericks.

Also, small ball might be best utilized by the Mavericks as a strategy, not a counter, in cases where the other team wants to play big. For example, I would absolutely plan to play some small ball against Minnesota. That is by far the easiest way to defeat them, in my humble opinion.

Has anyone successfully deployed small ball against the current DAL rotation? My impression is that if they go small, DAL goes vertical and Gaff+DLive makes them regret the strategy.

[fifteenth]

Has anyone successfully deployed small ball against the current DAL rotation? My impression is that if they go small, DAL goes vertical and Gaff+DLive makes them regret the strategy.

KL and PG should be an interesting test. They can destroy drop coverage with short jumpers. Look forward to seeing what we have cooked up.

[michaeltex]

I think MIN and DEN are the biggest hurdles for DAL this year.

MIN because they are BIG. KAT, Gober, Naz-Reid, Garza and Miller give them a lot of depth at C/PF. Gave DAL problems all year. But DAL is bigger now, so maybe the matchup is more even.

DEN because of the location and the Jokic/Murray combination.

[KillerLeft]

Has anyone successfully deployed small ball against the current DAL rotation? My impression is that if they go small, DAL goes vertical and Gaff+DLive makes them regret the strategy.

That's one way to combat the tactic, sure. 

But, I'll continue to assert that as much fun as it is to watch all those dunks, the Kleber/Washington front court is the best thing the Mavs have to offer, defensively.

[Scott41theMavs]

That's one way to combat the tactic, sure. 

But, I'll continue to assert that as much fun as it is to watch all those dunks, the Kleber/Washington front court is the best thing the Mavs have to offer, defensively.

DLive hate detected.

[KillerLeft]

DLive hate detected.

Lively is GREAT, defensively...when drop is appropriate. 

But man...Kleber/Washington just have a gear not many teams can get to, defensively.

[Scott41theMavs]

Lively is GREAT, defensively...when drop is appropriate. 

But man...Kleber/Washington just have a gear not many teams can get to, defensively.

Eh, I'm a Lively truther. I believe he has the combination of athleticism and length to give anyone trouble, even with perimeter switching. Shoot over that.

[Jason Terry]

Minnesota has some lengthy players.

Is small ball to you all mean the other teams players have to be able to shoot/score?

Because:

Edwards
McDaniels
Alexander-Walker
Reid

Are all switchable if I am not mistaken.  Reid can drain 3's too.  They have Conley, Slo-mo, Warren.

Seems like they have guys to play small to me...and arent major liabilities.

Edwards and McDaniels have already shut Luka and Kyrie down before late game.  Alexander-Walker has long arms like DJJ.  Reid is better than Maxi.

What am I missing?

I think it’s all about Gobert and KAT, but mainly Gobert. Minny does have the horses for small ball. If they play that way though, they’re wasting their max player(s) as they are sitting on the bench if small ball is their best lineup. 

Its not a big deal for us to sit Gafford if we needed. We’re the ones with the elite offense and best guards in the NBA

If they go small our guys feast at the rim 

It feels like we’re at the point where WE will be dictating how the game goes. Clippers will sit Zubac just like we would sit Powell. Desperation and lack of better options

[The Jom]

I think it’s all about Gobert and KAT, but mainly Gobert. Minny does have the horses for small ball. If they play that way though, they’re wasting their max player(s) as they are sitting on the bench if small ball is their best lineup. 

Its not a big deal for us to sit Gafford if we needed. We’re the ones with the elite offense and best guards in the NBA

If they go small our guys feast at the rim 

It feels like we’re at the point where WE will be dictating how the game goes. Clippers will sit Zubac just like we would sit Powell. Desperation and lack of better options

You had me all the way to sitting Zubac. That’s exactly what I posted this thread to refute. I believe we would DESTROY them in a centerless battle. I suspect by game 3 they will run whatever rotation maximizes the minutes of Gafford and Lively.

[RGP1981]

1. Which team in the league is better equipped to match up against small ball than this Mavs fivesome, Kyrie, Luka, DJJ, PJ, Maxi? (I suspect the answer is no one, not even close).

OKC comes to mind - Cason, SGA, Dort, Jalen, Chet

[The Jom]

2. Will playoff teams even try to play small against these Mavs? (If I’m Denver or Minny, I sure as hell wouldn’t. Not even sure who would.)

After 2 games, the preliminary answer to this question is Ty Lue wants no part of small ball vs. these Mavs. 90 of 96 minutes so far have featured Zubac or Plumlee in the lineup at center.

[mvossman]

After 2 games, the preliminary answer to this question is Ty Lue wants no part of small ball vs. these Mavs. 90 of 96 minutes so far have featured Zubac or Plumlee in the lineup at center.

Its not surprising that Lue is avoiding small ball as our Maxi/PJ small ball lineup is significantly outplaying lineups featuring our primary centers.

[KillerLeft]

Its not surprising that Lue is avoiding small ball as our Maxi/PJ small ball lineup is significantly outplaying lineups featuring our primary centers.

Agreed, but you can bet your bottom dollar that IF Kidd is smart enough to lean on that lineup more, THEN Lue will counter by going even smaller, at some point.

[michaeltex]

Agreed, but you can bet your bottom dollar that IF Kidd is smart enough to lean on that lineup more, THEN Lue will counter by going even smaller, at some point.

If Lue went even smaller, (no Zubac), then doesn't he risk turning it into lob city for Luka/Kyrie?

[KillerLeft]

If Lue went even smaller, (no Zubac), then doesn't he risk turning it into lob city for Luka/Kyrie?

It might work that way - it's possible. 

Gotta remember though: The smaller team is faster, and much more able to control the pace. Easier to play defense when you score, and easier to play offense when you're not taking the ball out of the net and inbounding it. Sometimes, what should work in theory has a way of getting neutralized by the snowballing effect of the other team's plan working better. 

Are you prepared to say you trust the centers/pick and roll game against Kawhi MORE than you trust Kawhi and/or Paul George and/or Harden not to chew them up with 5-out spacing? I, personally, do NOT like those odds. 

That's why Kleber is so valuable. It's not REALLY small ball when he's out there. In fact, he's probably the best paint defender of the bunch (though Lively is pretty damn good already). The only thing you're giving up with the Kleber/Washington lineup is a little bit of rebounding, and imo, the massive defensive upgrade more than makes up for it. I also think we'll see Washington used more and more frequently as the roll man in those situations, though that might be more of a next year thing.

EDIT: My answer to your question might be different if one of the centers was like Jokic and you could throw the ball into him and say "go." But, they're not, and they never will be, not even Lively. Because the roll stuff is dependent on a defender making a slight mistake, my guess is that the Clipps will defend that stuff better without Zubac, not worse. And they would KILL the Mavs up and down the floor.

[KillerLeft]

It seems like the only quarter the Mavs have decisively won in this series is the 4th quarter of game two, and that factually was a quarter of Kleber/Washington playing together. We need to remember that.