Wood You Consider Spending Over the First Apron

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I understand from that perspective.  That's a surface player to player comparison. 

I'm referring to building around a star combination at guard/center where the dominance comes from unstoppable offense even when their defense is average at best.   

In that respect I think Luka/Ayton would be very similar to Jokic/Murray in terms of what the Maverick coaching stuff would build their style of play and supporting roster around.  

I do agree that Luka/Kyrie is also an offensive fulcrum to build around.  I think Luka/Ayton as a pair could get to average level defensively on a roster much easier than Luka/Kyrie which always looks like it will be a massive challenge to build defense around. 

In addition there will always be Kyrie's commitment level question marks even when he's full in a contract commitment.  He may just 'retire' at any time leaving your 1/2 punch to just one.  I like the idea of an inside star and outside star a bit more and I think Ayton may still have untapped potential.    Kyrie's potential is great but its pretty much also more fully tapped.  I've read for example that Ayton's 29.2% 3 point shooting shows signs in practice that it could get much better if it were a focus and setup better.  Doubt he would ever reach Jokic level but he could be coached up to be a better defender than Jokic. 

Anyway, I don't know that Ayton is even in play of the Mavs so not to derail the OP.  The proposed CLE trade sounds great and tbqh I think with Kidd as coach Allen sounds much better as a fit to the defensive style Jason seems to be gunning for in Dallas.

Again, not really.  Joker allows you to completely forego distribution from your backcourt.  At the same time, Luka allows you to forego some rebounding from your frontcourt.  Ayton is a traditional big.  Joker is positively the most unique Big to ever bounce a basketball.  That's not "surface"; " a star combination at guard/center" is.

Unstoppable offense?  Ayton?  Really? How on Earth do you think Ayton after showing you who he is can be part of an "unstoppable offense"?  Have you watched him the last 2 years, especially the playoffs.  He was benched for Lindale.  He should have demolished the Mavs in the 2021/22 playoff series, but was pedestrian at best. 

Dude is a $20m/yr player, meaning he has over $40m dead money in his 3 year contract.  With the new CBA, do you think we can afford that while having 2 max players in Kyrie/Luka???  There's a reason PHX wants to shed Ayton and CP3...  because they have 2 max players in Booker/Durant.  So we want to be PHX in their current bad situation?  I just don't get it.

[Dahlsim]

Again, not really.  Joker allows you to completely forego distribution from your backcourt.  At the same time, Luka allows you to forego some rebounding from your frontcourt.  Ayton is a traditional big.  Joker is positively the most unique Big to ever bounce a basketball.  That's not "surface"; " a star combination at guard/center" is.

Unstoppable offense?  Ayton?  Really? How on Earth do you think Ayton after showing you who he is can be part of an "unstoppable offense"?  Have you watched him the last 2 years, especially the playoffs.  He was benched for Lindale.  He should have demolished the Mavs in the 2021/22 playoff series, but was pedestrian at best. 

Dude is a $20m/yr player, meaning he has over $40m dead money in his 3 year contract.  With the new CBA, do you think we can afford that while having 2 max players in Kyrie/Luka???  There's a reason PHX wants to shed Ayton and CP3...  because they have 2 max players in Booker/Durant.  So we want to be PHX in their current bad situation?  I just don't get it.

My point about surface player to player comparison in your initial reply is that its a different type of comparison than what I was commenting on.  You're getting below the surface into more detail now when you compare the players as to how they are used and perform in terms of distribution vs rebounding etc.  Not my point at all. 

In fact my point was that the way a player, even an elite talented player performs depends a great deal on the role they play in a roster or rotation and the way a coaching staff leverages or fails to leverage their talents. 

Your comments for example on Jokic now are in complete retrospect given the results of the way he has performed in Denver and on Ayton its a reflection of the way he's been used in Phoenix with the roster surrounding him there.  

As I pointed out if it were so clear how awesomely unique Jokic is and how dominant he would therefore be then he would not ever have been drafted #41 by the great NBA minds would he?   Sure its easy to see that now but even a few years ago there was far from universal agreement on how dominant Jokic talents could become.  I'm saying that is also due to the excellent way in which Denver leverages his talents,  reduces the impact of his weaknesses and surrounded him with a great complementary roster. 

Watching Ayton I'm not saying I'm certain but I do see clear potential that he could still live up to his high draft pedigree.  Right now playing as a center with ball dominant scoring stars like Devon Booker and now Kevin Durant doesn't necessarily maximize his talents. Centers in particular are very dependent on how they are used or not used.   

Paying close attention to Ayton's game, yes I do think Ayton/Luka could very well be as dominant a combo to try and defend as Jokic/Murray.  Luka is great at making his 5 man effective IMO however I'm not sure that Kidd is disposed to really press and run an advantage like that into the ground forcing an opponent to stop it. 
This is why I said ultimately a different less offensively skilled center might be the choice for Dallas.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/3-r...r-AA1cGZcI

Deandre Ayton is one of the better centers in the NBA. He’s a respectable defender and is strong on offense. Ayton endured some ups and downs this past season, but was solid overall. He finished the 2022-23 campaign with 18 points per game on 58.9 percent field goal shooting. He also averaged just under one block per contest and added 10 boards per game.
...
However, acquiring a big man with scoring and rebounding prowess like Ayton would help Luka Doncic and the Mavericks bounce back quickly. If they re-sign Kyrie Irving, the Mavs would have a legitimate big three.

Even if the Mavs don’t sign Irving though, building around Ayton and Doncic would still lead to the team likely having a chance to compete.
...
Former NBA player and current analyst/podcaster JJ Redick agrees, recently stating that Dallas needs a “prototypical modern five.” Ayton may not offer much long-range shooting prowess, but he helps in almost every other regard for the most part.

“The thing that I think they’ve really lacked is that prototypical modern five,” Redick said on The Old Man & the Three podcast on YouTube. “To me, that’s the big you pair with Luka

[SkenfromLMF]

Wild Hair Mix of proposed trades: 4-Way pre-Draft -

Indiana trades Hield, Theis (#26, 29, 32) and receives THJ, DFS, (#22, 55)
Atlanta trades Collins, Capela, (#15 & 46) and receives Ben Simmons (21, 51, 55)
Brooklyn trades DFS, Ben Simmons (#21, 22, 51) and receives Collins, Hield, McGee (29, 46)
Dallas trades THJ, McGee and receives Capela, Theis, 15, 26, 32

Indy gets 2 of Carlisle's guys and moves up to #22
Atlanta saves 7 million on the 22-23 payroll, 7 million in 23-24, 8+ in 24-25 and Collins 25.8 million PO in 25-26 to move down 5 spots
Brooklyn splits Simmons and DFS into 3 players at the cost of 1.8 million on the 22-23 ledger; but immediately saves that in 23-24 due to Hield decreasing in salary and expiring: Between the cost of BS/DFS the Nets save ~30 million in 24-25 - at the cost of #21 and moving down 7 slots from 22 and splitting Simmons salary for 24-25 across 2 years of Collins and still save DFS' 15.4 PO in 25-26.
Dallas gets a player they want and one they do not, 22-23 salaries jump 2.5 million (+ TAX); +3 mil in 23-24; and is salary neutral in 24-25 IF Theis does not have his TO exercised. THJ makes Hield available to BRK; by absorbing salary while in the TAX, Mavs get the draft benefits -

F'n Nuggets!

Dallas gets 15 & 40
Indy only trades 26 & 40 does not get 22
BRK gets 26 (instead of 29)

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

My point about surface player to player comparison in your initial reply is that its a different type of comparison than what I was commenting on.  You're getting below the surface into more detail now when you compare the players as to how they are used and perform in terms of distribution vs rebounding etc.  Not my point at all. 

In fact my point was that the way a player, even an elite talented player performs depends a great deal on the role they play in a roster or rotation and the way a coaching staff leverages or fails to leverage their talents. 

Your comments for example on Jokic now are in complete retrospect given the results of the way he has performed in Denver and on Ayton its a reflection of the way he's been used in Phoenix with the roster surrounding him there.  

As I pointed out if it were so clear how awesomely unique Jokic is and how dominant he would therefore be then he would not ever have been drafted #41 by the great NBA minds would he?   Sure its easy to see that now but even a few years ago there was far from universal agreement on how dominant Jokic talents could become.  I'm saying that is also due to the excellent way in which Denver leverages his talents,  reduces the impact of his weaknesses and surrounded him with a great complementary roster. 

Watching Ayton I'm not saying I'm certain but I do see clear potential that he could still live up to his high draft pedigree.  Right now playing as a center with ball dominant scoring stars like Devon Booker and now Kevin Durant doesn't necessarily maximize his talents. Centers in particular are very dependent on how they are used or not used.   

Paying close attention to Ayton's game, yes I do think Ayton/Luka could very well be as dominant a combo to try and defend as Jokic/Murray.  Luka is great at making his 5 man effective IMO however I'm not sure that Kidd is disposed to really press and run an advantage like that into the ground forcing an opponent to stop it. 
This is why I said ultimately a different less offensively skilled center might be the choice for Dallas.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/3-r...r-AA1cGZcI

When people show you who they are, believe them.  3 years/$104m based upon what he *could be?

[Dahlsim]

When people show you who they are, believe them.  3 years/$104m based upon what he *could be?

I liked your thought here because I generally understand the risk in getting a player with time in the league and paying on the hope that they go to another level based on a change in environment.  Its a significant risk.  On the other hand, it has happened. Jimmy Butler may the most recent example, a guy who showed talent but issues at other locations, now in a better fit is a leading star on a 2x finals team. Evidently the rumor mill has it that Dallas is still looking at this maybe similar to the way JJ Redick and I see it as a potential offensive powerhouse even if its a bit of hail mary.   

https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/da...rie-irving

The Mavs continue to be linked in trade rumors to Suns center Deandre Ayton even after selecting a center using a lottery pick in the 2023 NBA Draft.

I like their draft pick. Lively is exactly the type of center I would expect them to favor based on the defensive orientation Jason Kidd has been trying to build. 
At the same time I think Dallas feels they need a 3rd star level player if they want Luka's team to seriously compete any time soon. 

Still seems like a longshot from an asset and financial perspective for Nico and company to pull this off but from Phoenix perspective the thought is: 

With the Suns now having Bradley Beal in the fold alongside Kevin Durant and Devin Booker, there isn't a need to prioritize an expensive scoring threat at the center position. Phoenix may choose to break up his contract into multiple players in order to maximize the depth that they have.

[MFFL]

Do y'all think there is a SnT deal for Wood that would get us a 2nd round pick? Or no pick if McGee goes too?

But I would only be interested if the Mavs stay out of the tax. The repeater tax is nasty and we might as well avoid it as long as we can.

[F Gump]

Do y'all think there is a SnT deal for Wood that would get us a 2nd round pick? Or no pick if McGee goes too?

But I would only be interested if the Mavs stay out of the tax. The repeater tax is nasty and we might as well avoid it as long as we can.

There is probably no scenario in which
(1) another team will compensate you for helping them, so
(2) you have to sign Wood for them (because it's a big enough salary where they can't do it on their own), and
(3) then you can fit it all under the tax.

So snt of Wood seems like a non-starter.

But in general, the Mavs do have some payroll room to work now. Their bigger issue is finding a path to the right players (probably looking for a defensive wing and a C) at the right price.

[RasheedsBigWhiteSpot]

Again. just how much of a POS off the court do you have to be that teams will pass up on 18 pts and 10 rebs?

[SkenfromLMF]

Again. just how much of a POS off the court do you have to be that teams will pass up on 18 pts and 10 rebs?

I'm not sure that it is off the court issues. Wood has the reputation of being a guy who wants to be paid like a STAR but refuses to play both ends of the floor. The question becomes how do all the parties respond to his market value dipping below 10 million? Does his agent come to Dallas looking for a 1yr deal, and Dallas insists on a team option for year 2 so he is tradable, for around $14 million total?

[SleepingHero]

I'm not sure that it is off the court issues. Wood has the reputation of being a guy who wants to be paid like a STAR but refuses to play both ends of the floor. The question becomes how do all the parties respond to his market value dipping below 10 million? Does his agent come to Dallas looking for a 1yr deal, and Dallas insists on a team option for year 2 so he is tradable, for around $14 million total?

I think that ship has sailed further than timbuktu. 

Even if Wood comes crawling back to Dallas, why would the Mavs even grant his request at such a salary? The league has set the market for him and they see him as a minimum player. The reasons why go beyond counting stats that's for sure. Think about it. If Wood had adopted an attitude like Powell, and literally did everything the Mavs asked of him (and he has the talent to do it), do you really think he'd be in free agency searching for a vet min deal? The Mavs saw 2 weeks of it and were ready to extend him for 2-4 years between 40-60 mil!!

Wood has only himself to blame. There are obvious behind the scenes issues with him. This was probably his last chance to prove to the league his reputation doesn't precede him and he failed. No shot in the universe Wood is back and frankly I wouldn't want him back at a vet min deal given he'll be gunning for his own glory every time he's out there in hopes he can convince some stupid team to give him more than MLE money.

[ThisIStheYear]

Do y'all think there is a SnT deal for Wood that would get us a 2nd round pick? Or no pick if McGee goes too?

But I would only be interested if the Mavs stay out of the tax. The repeater tax is nasty and we might as well avoid it as long as we can.

The best idea I’ve heard for using Wood’s bird rights is to SnT him to an over the tax team for a more expensive player, with Wood’s salary starting at the lowest possible amount for a trade match. That would be clever.