Trade & FA 2023-24: Booker Likes NYK? Vogel Out? Suns Imploding?

[Smitty]

You could look at it as we paid a 2030 pick swap to obtain Grant Williams who we then traded for PJ Washington and two 2nd-round picks.

In that case, we spent a top-2 protected 2027 1st as well as a 2030 pick swap to obtain PJ Washington and two, 2nd-round picks.

That's what it cost.

Once you've watched PJ Washington play for a while, you'll realize that this was not a good deal.

This is wrong. I won't go into what obtaining Grant Williams 'cost' to acquire, because that has nothing to do with what PJW cost. --The sunk cost fallacy.

You said "PJW isn't worth a top-2 protected FRP" and that you would have liked the deal, "had we obtained him for our two SRP's".


To be clear; this was the trade:

Mavs: PJW, 2 SRP's

CHA: Gwill, Curry, '27 FRP (DAL - Top 2 Protected)


Maybe you believe that Grant Williams is a good player, on a positive contract, and that Luka and others wanted him to stay. Even if that's the case, obtaining PJW didn't cost a top-2 protected FRP. He cost exactly what the trade above illustrates.

Edit: The Dallas Mavericks were 'determined' to part ways with Grant Williams after he 'rubbed a lot of people the wrong way,' per @espn_macmahon

ICYMI: Part of the P.J. Washington trade for the Dallas Mavericks was about moving on from Grant Williams — a player and personality that didn't fit.

"Williams' personality had worn on the Mavs' locker room in recent months."

[DallasMaverick]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_...tful-deals

ESPNs Kevin Pelton is not so high on our trades...

Kinda fascinating how wildly different even the “experts” opinions on Dallas’ trades are.

We’ll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[Chicagojk]

After quick reading it feels like Wizards fans (while happy with the pick) are much more bummed than Hornet fans. It will be interesting to watch Washington’s game. Would it be safe to assume to hope his game mimics what Gordon does for Denver? Is that even in the ballpark? I think Gordon is better but would love to see Washington play that style of game

[omahen]

After quick reading it feels like Wizards fans (while happy with the pick) are much more bummed than Hornet fans.  It will be interesting to watch Washington’s  game.  Would it be safe to assume to hope his game mimics what Gordon does for Denver?  Is that even in the ballpark?  I think Gordon is better but would love to see Washington play that style of game

The idea of a player PJ could be would be worth a 2027 pick. The reality of PJ Washington is worth far less. I don't get how people can celebrate the idea before seeing on court results. Mavs made a huge gamble.

If everything goes well, all those unprotected firsts and swaps will not matter. But there are huge risks things will not work and Mavs will need a long time to get back to relevance, if things don't work out as planned. Phoenix traded their future for Durant and Beal. Mavs traded half of their future for GWill, PJ and Gafford. I appreciate the all in approach, no other choice if you want to contend. But the gamble is huge.

Mavs have 2 FRP, pick swap and hope of young players having value moving forward. So far only Green is really justifying that hope. They will need to replace Kyrie in a couple of years.

[ItsGoTime]

I think, if they decide to, PJ and 1 or 2 of those FRPs we have available (assuming PJ doesn’t pull a GWill here) will be just fine compensation for Jerami Grant. If he keeps his 40% catch n shoot number here, his 3% will go up. If he stops most of his other 3 shooting his 3% will sky rocket. Time will tell. We do know he didn’t want to be in Cha this season.

[KillerLeft]

I think, if they decide to, PJ and 1 or 2 of those FRPs we have available (assuming PJ doesn’t pull a GWill here) will be just fine compensation for Jerami Grant. If he keeps his 40% catch n shoot number here, his 3% will go up. If he stops most of his other 3 shooting his 3% will sky rocket. Time will tell. We do know he didn’t want to be in Cha this season.

That’s true. The Mavs have several players whose value should increase in the coming years, thank God.

Still, I would have predicted the same for Grant Williams. I cannot believe that personality conflicts have caused so much trouble here. Personality chemistry seems to have been the downfall of Porzingis, Williams, Delon Wright, Josh Richardson and probably some others I’m forgetting. I sure hope the new guys fit in with the locker room.

[MFFL]

Super pleased with our front office today.

Moved a PF that wasn't working for one that MIGHT work. Plus we got a backup center who WILL work.

We did give up a first rounder but we got one back with a pick swap that we also used. Unloaded the corpse of Holmes basically for free (we got O-Max to take on Holmes and we moved him without having to attach a pick). And we got 2 second round picks?

Excellent!

[Scott41theMavs]

Mavs have 2 FRP, pick swap and hope of young players having value moving forward. So far only Green is really justifying that hope. 

I'd say Dereck Lively is doing fairly well in justifying the hope, if he can just get a less prominent nose.

[omahen]

I'd say Dereck Lively is doing fairly well in justifying the hope, if he can just get a less prominent nose.

Of course. I didn't mention him because I consider him untouchable.

[Scott41theMavs]

Has Spence agreed to sign here yet?

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I'd say Dereck Lively is doing fairly well in justifying the hope, if he can just get a less prominent nose.

Gafford and Washington also proved less than 24 hours ago that they have value as young pieces in this league.

[Chicagojk]

The idea of a player PJ could be would be worth a 2027 pick. The reality of PJ Washington is worth far less. I don't get how people can celebrate the idea before seeing on court results. Mavs made a huge gamble.

If everything goes well, all those unprotected firsts and swaps will not matter. But there are huge risks things will not work and Mavs will need a long time to get back to relevance, if things don't work out as planned. Phoenix traded their future for Durant and Beal. Mavs traded half of their future for GWill, PJ and Gafford. I appreciate the all in approach, no other choice if you want to contend. But the gamble is huge.

Mavs have 2 FRP, pick swap and hope of young players having value moving forward. So far only Green is really justifying that hope. They will need to replace Kyrie in a couple of years.

I am not disagreeing with your overall point but wanted to comment on Phoenix.  I thought they had a real nice day yesterday and if healthy will be a tough out.

Phx went all in with one superstar and one maybe star.  Dallas got nothing yesterday in the stratosphere of KD.  They did invest in guys in the mid 20’s though and not in their 30’s.  More importantly, Phoenix has no one close to Lively as a developmental piece.  Heck they don’t even have a Omax or Hardy.  Maybe neither work out but at least there is a chance.  As we go forward, Phx will be looking for minimum guys to piece everything together.  It may work out, but at the same time it will be tough to build that connection most good teams have.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

No idea if the Mavs will get him, but the addition of SD in 2022 made a huge difference, because it added another significant ball-handler who can attack, and score. That let them play Luka and Brunson together, and as many minutes as each could handle, with another player who can do some of those things waiting to give them a rest. And at times the Mavs would really push the envelope and play all 3 together. (With plenty of rim-running bigs who can DEFEND, I wonder what that sort of attack would create now? Just thinking.)

In theory Kyrie is now in the Brunson role, and Exum is the 3rd guy. But you really need another guy because of injuries. SD can be that guy. And he already knows that role very well.

I don’t disagree that Dinwiddie had a big impact in 2022. My only concern is that he’s coming into a very different roster and folks are expecting the same sort of impact. He is certainly the most talented player available to fill that last roster spot and I can talk myself into the shooting numbers that he had while he was here as well as how beneficial he is to have around for injuries. My main concern is this team has had constantly issues building an identity and rotation, especially one that has any sort of defensive presence and now when the roster is healthy we’re going to have to figure out where he gets minutes. I think the most logical and productive minutes will be the Hardy/Curry minutes but will that be enough? Is he going to make enough of a difference maker to justify hindering Hardy’s potential growth which is probably more important to this teams future?

He’s clearly coming back and I’ll be rooting for him, but I started the conversation by saying I thought it would be odd for him to come back and I stand by that because we don’t have a predefined role for him like we did in 2022.

[Jason Terry]

We got:
Kyrie
Gafford
PJ

For:
2027 1st
2028 swap
2029 1st
2030 swap

That’s good enough. The Kyrie trade was such great value that we could afford to wiff on a bad personality fit like G Will. We are in a great position

[Jannemann2]

I'd say Dereck Lively is doing fairly well in justifying the hope, if he can just get a less prominent nose.

One might argue, that's what he already got when that nose of him was hit .

[surfpuckmd]

The idea of a player PJ could be would be worth a 2027 pick. The reality of PJ Washington is worth far less. I don't get how people can celebrate the idea before seeing on court results. Mavs made a huge gamble.

If everything goes well, all those unprotected firsts and swaps will not matter. But there are huge risks things will not work and Mavs will need a long time to get back to relevance, if things don't work out as planned. Phoenix traded their future for Durant and Beal. Mavs traded half of their future for GWill, PJ and Gafford. I appreciate the all in approach, no other choice if you want to contend. But the gamble is huge.

Mavs have 2 FRP, pick swap and hope of young players having value moving forward. So far only Green is really justifying that hope. They will need to replace Kyrie in a couple of years.

This is well said.  We gave up our assets for some role players.  Only Gafford has been a net positive this season.  The other two have been bad.  We continually use assets to acquire a player then we turn on that player.   Then we use assets to either get rid of that player or swap him out for a similar-level player.  It's just dumb.  

Holding onto the 2027 1st would have allowed us to obtain a quality starting PF this coming summer.  Instead, we have PJ Washington.  He has a small chance to become that quality starter if only he improves on offense and defense while playing for Jason Kidd.  It's like we're investing our savings on raffle tickets.  It's possible that we win but the odds stacked against us.

[Nowitzki Way]

I really loved the Gafford trade. I think we may be undervaluing him and this trade. He's a really good fit for our system and what we want our bigs to do.

Some say he's a Lively clone, but he's actually much better than Lively right now. And i'm a huge Lively fan. This gives us a full game of Lively level play and better honestly with what Gafford can provide.

This is huge because of the injury questions surrounding Livley, but also him being a 19 year old rookie who does struggle with foul issues. That wont be an issue with Gafford replacing him each night.

I have my reservations about the P.J. Washington trade. I want to wait and see what he looks like on a winning team, with 2 all-time greats like Luka/Kyrie. Bottom line, he's an upgrade to Grant Wiliams. That was a terrible trade from the beginning and he needed to go.

Sign me up for Dinwiddie coming back. We need that 3rd ball handler and also injury insurance for Luka/Kyrie. He would really round out this team. We'd be as deep as we've ever been.

But if Diwnwiddie goes to L.A. or somewhere else. What about Marcus Morris? I know we hate him for the crap he did to Luka, but he still has some game. He's much better than our Morris twin we currently have.

[Chicagojk]

I really loved the Gafford trade. I think we may be undervaluing him and this trade. He's a really good fit for our system and what we want our bigs to do. 

Some say he's a Lively clone, but he's actually much better than Lively right now.  And i'm a huge Lively fan. This gives us a full game of Lively level play and better honestly with what Gafford can provide.

This is huge because of the injury questions surrounding Livley, but also him being a 19 year old rookie who does struggle with foul issues. That wont be an issue with Gafford replacing him each night.

I have my reservations about the P.J. Washington trade.  I want to wait and see what he looks like on a winning team, with 2 all-time greats like Luka/Kyrie. Bottom line, he's an upgrade to Grant Wiliams. That was a terrible trade from the beginning and he needed to go.

Sign me up for Dinwiddie coming back. We need that 3rd ball handler and also injury insurance for Luka/Kyrie. He would really round out this team. We'd be as deep as we've ever been.

But if Diwnwiddie goes to L.A. or somewhere else. What about Marcus Morris? I know we hate him for the crap he did to Luka, but he still has some game. He's much better than our Morris twin we currently have.

Nice post.  I really wanted more size and guys who could put more pressure on the rim.  Hopefully both guys do that.  Defense will be the key though..much more important for Washington.  Can he go from playing on a team that doesn’t matter to doing the small, boring things with a good team?  I brought up Aaron Gordon.  I don’t think Washington is as good, but can he change his game like Gordon has done?

I would be in favor of Dinwiddie.  I am not sure what happens to him this year and the role is going to be tricky.  But I want decent sized guards who can put pressure by getting to the rim and getting free throws.   Would be a nice addition to have him attack on the rotation.  The rotation would be tricky though.  I don’t think I am interested in the other Morris.  The one we have can provide insurance.  I am not sure either can be expected of more right now

[mvossman]

After quick reading it feels like Wizards fans (while happy with the pick) are much more bummed than Hornet fans.  It will be interesting to watch Washington’s  game.  Would it be safe to assume to hope his game mimics what Gordon does for Denver?  Is that even in the ballpark?  I think Gordon is better but would love to see Washington play that style of game

I think PJ was disgruntled with how the RFA played out and maybe tired of being on a crappy team.  I am guessing the fans would have been much less happy to see him go prior to this season.

[surfpuckmd]

This is wrong. I won't go into what obtaining Grant Williams 'cost' to acquire, because that has nothing to do with what PJW cost. --The sunk cost fallacy.

You said "PJW isn't worth a top-2 protected FRP" and that you would have liked the deal, "had we obtained him for our two SRP's".


To be clear; this was the trade:

Mavs: PJW, 2 SRP's

CHA: Gwill, Curry, '27 FRP (DAL - Top 2 Protected)


Maybe you believe that Grant Williams is a good player, on a positive contract, and that Luka and others wanted him to stay. Even if that's the case, obtaining PJW didn't cost a top-2 protected FRP. He cost exactly what the trade above illustrates.

Edit: The Dallas Mavericks were 'determined' to part ways with Grant Williams after he 'rubbed a lot of people the wrong way,' per @espn_macmahon

ICYMI: Part of the P.J. Washington trade for the Dallas Mavericks was about moving on from Grant Williams — a player and personality that didn't fit.

"Williams' personality had worn on the Mavs' locker room in recent months."

You're not wrong but I'm not either.  It simply depends on your perspective.  If you spend 40k to buy a 4runner but then a year later, you trade it and 40k in cash for a Range Rover, you have spent 80k ultimately to obtain the Range Rover.  Minus the utility of driving that 4runner for a year which you could estimate.

Your way of looking at it is also correct.  You're just focusing on the immediate deal.  

It is possible that the Mavericks were sick of Grant Williams, recognized their mistake and wanted to desperately get rid of him even though we just paid a 2030 pick swap to obtain him.  

I think that's really concerning though.  We have done this repeatedly over the past 15 years.  We're not only bad at talent evaluation but we turn on our players very easily.  There's something pathologic there.  I think Cuban is the biggest part of it but Kidd and even Luka seem to contribute as well.  We're like a guy who has been divorced 11 times.  After a while, that guy needs to understand that he's the problem.  

Just in the past year we've turned on Christian Wood, JaVale McGee and Grant Williams.  Other good teams don't do this.  

The biggest issue is just the price we paid for PJ Washington.  It's like we traded the 4Runner for a Toyota Highlander with similar mileage.  Yet we also included 40k in the deal.  The other guy had a really good day.