Trade & FA 2023-24: Paul George to Test Free Agency After No Contract Extension

[surfpuckmd]

@townbrad
Unconfirmed, but heard a rumbling that Dinwiddie plans to attend tonight's game, which, if true, is . . . interesting

Signing Dinwiddie would be huge for this season.  That would make us competitive in almost any playoff series.  

Re-signing him somehow in the offseason would be an even greater coup.  I hope he and Kyrie are out at dinner together right now.

[Smitty]

PJ Washington has the potential to revert to being a winning player.  He's been bad this season though.  2024 PJ Washington isn't worth a top-2 protected 2027 1st.  If we obtained him for our two 2nd-round picks, I'd like the deal.

Then it’s a good thing that’s not what it cost to get PJW. The Mavs traded the protected ‘27 FRP, dumped a bad player/contract and acquired 2 SRP’s.

[omahen]

Then it’s a good thing that’s not what it cost to get PJW. The Mavs traded the protected ‘27 FRP, dumped a bad player/contract and acquired 2 SRP’s.

That is imho not a good way to look at it. Opportunity cost of losing 2027 pick for a risky player should be considered.

[Smitty]

That is imho not a good way to look at it. Opportunity cost of losing 2027 pick for a risky player should be considered.

There’s no other way to look at it. That was the trade.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

I wonder why Woj says Luka is excited about PJ Washington. Do these guys play pickup in the offseason?

BTW in the same segment Woj said that, both Tim Legler and Bobby Marks said they liked the trades for Dallas.

[F Gump]

 I don't disagree with your overall premise, but the guy has a career 3 point shooting percentage of 33 including his time in Dallas. While its reasonable to expect it to be higher in Dallas, I think it unlikely he will shoot over 40% like he did previously if he returns.

You're free to your opinion. Mine is so different.

I can't get past the stark change when SD was in the Dallas system.

He was DIFFERENT in Dallas. Off-the-charts better. Two seasons, not one. One with JB, one without, but each season at a completely different tier. "Like a different player entirely" better.

.................... Overall ..... 3%
Before DAL    40.3          31.7
DAL yr 1        49.8          40.4
DAL yr 2        45.5          40.5
After DAL       39.6          30.9

I think he WAS a different player, because he was in a different role getting completely different looks and opportunities. Before and after, he's tasked to be the lead ball-handling guard, but in Dallas, he's freed to imo do what he does way better.

So I just don't see any reason why bringing him back with virtually the same role available, 3rd ball-handler, wouldn't succeed in the same way. And I would love for him to sign here where we can see if it again works like I think it would.

[mvossman]

You're free to your opinion. Mine is so different.

I can't get past the stark change when SD was in the Dallas system.

He was DIFFERENT in Dallas. Off-the-charts better. Two seasons, not one. One with JB, one without, but each season at a completely different tier. "Like a different player entirely" better.

.................... Overall ..... 3%
Before DAL    40.3          31.7
DAL yr 1        49.8          40.4
DAL yr 2        45.5          40.5
After DAL       39.6          30.9

I think he WAS a different player, because he was in a different role getting completely different looks and opportunities. Before and after, he's tasked to be the lead ball-handling guard, but in Dallas, he's freed to imo do what he does way better.

So I just don't see any reason why bringing him back with virtually the same role available, 3rd ball-handler, wouldn't succeed in the same way. And I would love for him to sign here where we can see if it again works like I think it would.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for them to get Dinwiddie.  It would ensure we have enough playmakers even with an injury or two.  Its just very rare to have change in role make a permanent more than 8% jump in 3 point shooting.  That is a massive jump.  His shot profile isn't even that different.  He also played several years with Nets with different roles.  Hopefully we do get him and see how it plays out.

[BigDirk41]

I feel like Dinwiddie will sign with Dallas. He really seemed to enjoy his time here and nobody can be mad when you're traded for a player of Kyrie Irving's magnitude.

[surfpuckmd]

Then it’s a good thing that’s not what it cost to get PJW. The Mavs traded the protected ‘27 FRP, dumped a bad player/contract and acquired 2 SRP’s.

You could look at it as we paid a 2030 pick swap to obtain Grant Williams who we then traded for PJ Washington and two 2nd-round picks.

In that case, we spent a top-2 protected 2027 1st as well as a 2030 pick swap to obtain PJ Washington and two, 2nd-round picks.

That's what it cost.

Once you've watched PJ Washington play for a while, you'll realize that this was not a good deal.

[BigDirk41]

I was watching the Jason Kidd press conference after the game and he mentioned adding 2 or possibly 3 new pieces to the team. I'm hoping that means Dinwiddie is signing.

[Dundalis]

It's the price of player that has to be considered.  We traded Porzingis for Dinwiddie and Bertans.  That was one of the most shocking trades in the NBA in the last 10 years.  It remains incredible that we got so little for Porzingis who was actually playing well for us when we dealt him.

Dinwiddie has been a useful player for a long time. He was just never near the level of Porzingis. The fact that we also ate the Bertans contract and gave up a 2nd-rounder made the entire deal pitiful.  

PJ Washington has the potential to revert to being a winning player.  He's been bad this season though.  2024 PJ Washington isn't worth a top-2 protected 2027 1st.  If we obtained him for our two 2nd-round picks, I'd like the deal.

The difference with PJ vs 2022 Dinwiddie though is age and upside. He's 3 years younger than Dinwiddie with clearly more upside than Dinwiddie's at the time he was traded for.

I also don't really have an issue with people saying it's risky, but you literally said you hate PJ Washington. It's like, that's a step above simply feeling like it might be too risky and not work out well, or even not really liking the trade.

Another thing people aren't mentioning when considering the assets given up for both PJ and Gafford is their value as assets in and of themselves moving forward. They aren't 30+ year olds on terrible contracts. Both these guys are fairly likely to at least maintain the value they were traded for, with the potential to increase in value when you consider their age and the situations they have been in, vs coming into. Even players that don't perform quite as expected, tend to have more trade value having been part of winning teams with playoff experience, vs players who've maybe put up better numbers on perennial losers. Like one or both could have great performances rest of the year and play well in the post season, and someone comes up in the off season we want, they will have plenty of value. What we gave up isn't value simply lost.

[Dundalis]

You're free to your opinion. Mine is so different.

I can't get past the stark change when SD was in the Dallas system.

He was DIFFERENT in Dallas. Off-the-charts better. Two seasons, not one. One with JB, one without, but each season at a completely different tier. "Like a different player entirely" better.

.................... Overall ..... 3%
Before DAL    40.3          31.7
DAL yr 1        49.8          40.4
DAL yr 2        45.5          40.5
After DAL       39.6          30.9

I think he WAS a different player, because he was in a different role getting completely different looks and opportunities. Before and after, he's tasked to be the lead ball-handling guard, but in Dallas, he's freed to imo do what he does way better.

So I just don't see any reason why bringing him back with virtually the same role available, 3rd ball-handler, wouldn't succeed in the same way. And I would love for him to sign here where we can see if it again works like I think it would.

All you have to do is listen to Dinwiddie speak about his time in Dallas vs Washington. He said it was literally a night and day difference for him having a clearly defined role. In Washington he had no role. He basically just went out and played without direction. He got to Dallas and was given a clearly defined role and it allowed him to focus on just doing that. It's still a huge difference in production, and Luka had plenty to do with it im sure, but it also gives an indication of how much situations off the court can affect production on.

[Dundalis]

You could look at it as we paid a 2030 pick swap to obtain Grant Williams who we then traded for PJ Washington and two 2nd-round picks.

In that case, we spent a top-2 protected 2027 1st as well as a 2030 pick swap to obtain PJ Washington and two, 2nd-round picks.

That's what it cost.

Once you've watched PJ Washington play for a while, you'll realize that this was not a good deal.

You are just making the assumption nothing changes going from a dumpster fire situation to one where he will be given a defined role. When we literally had a first hand experience of what happened recently (I think you can also look at THJ's numbers with Dallas vs with other teams to see something similar). It's risky sure, but there's loads of examples of players coming from bad situations into good ones and looking like different players, especially if you limit that sample size to guys with a rep of being professional and good locker room influences.

[SleepingHero]

(@townbrad)
I asked Harrison, "Is there a chance you guys aren't done, in terms of the buyout market?"

Harrison smiled. "Well, you guys know me. I've been here what, two-and-a-half years? If there's a chance to make our team better, we're going to do that, for sure. Three's no doubt."

[Knutsen]

You're free to your opinion. Mine is so different.

I can't get past the stark change when SD was in the Dallas system.

He was DIFFERENT in Dallas. Off-the-charts better. Two seasons, not one. One with JB, one without, but each season at a completely different tier. "Like a different player entirely" better.

.................... Overall ..... 3%
Before DAL    40.3          31.7
DAL yr 1        49.8          40.4
DAL yr 2        45.5          40.5
After DAL       39.6          30.9

I think he WAS a different player, because he was in a different role getting completely different looks and opportunities. Before and after, he's tasked to be the lead ball-handling guard, but in Dallas, he's freed to imo do what he does way better.

So I just don't see any reason why bringing him back with virtually the same role available, 3rd ball-handler, wouldn't succeed in the same way. And I would love for him to sign here where we can see if it again works like I think it would.

Dinwiddie is an downhill attack player. Sounds like almost every player should be, but clearly most are not, because if you aren‘t uber talented like Kyrie or SGA that style of play is not efficient in the NBA. But those kind of players excel because of the gravitation of Doncic. I guess the same will be true for Washington, who is an attacking forward. And it‘s the reason why Exum has the third best shooting efficiency in the league as a non-deadly shooting guard.

[SleepingHero]

Evan Sidery (@esidery)
The new expectation is the Raptors will now trade Bruce Brown around the draft, per @wojespn (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfL68NRM0Bc&pp=ygUHV29qIHBvZg%3D%3D).

Toronto felt there wasn’t enough being offered to relinquish Brown right now instead of waiting until the summer.

Brown has a $23 million team option on his contract for next season.

[SleepingHero]

https://twitter.com/grantafseth/status/1...TZots4zt0A

Great video catch here of Spencer Dinwiddie talking with Mark Cuban at tonight's Dallas Mavericks game at Madison Square Garden.

[SleepingHero]

Grant Afseth (@GrantAfseth)
Luka Doncic on whether the front office mentioned possible trades before they developed: "Yeah, they talked to me."

[WillE]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_...tful-deals

ESPNs Kevin Pelton is not so high on our trades...

[surfpuckmd]

The difference with PJ vs 2022 Dinwiddie though is age and upside. He's 3 years younger than Dinwiddie with clearly more upside than Dinwiddie's at the time he was traded for.

I also don't really have an issue with people saying it's risky, but you literally said you hate PJ Washington. It's like, that's a step above simply feeling like it might be too risky and not work out well, or even not really liking the trade.

Another thing people aren't mentioning when considering the assets given up for both PJ and Gafford is their value as assets in and of themselves moving forward. They aren't 30+ year olds on terrible contracts. Both these guys are fairly likely to at least maintain the value they were traded for, with the potential to increase in value when you consider their age and the situations they have been in, vs coming into. Even players that don't perform quite as expected, tend to have more trade value having been part of winning teams with playoff experience, vs players who've maybe put up better numbers on perennial losers. Like one or both could have great performances rest of the year and play well in the post season, and someone comes up in the off season we want, they will have plenty of value. What we gave up isn't value simply lost.

I don't hate PJ Washington.  I just hate the trade.  We gave up our best available asset for him.  If that was the market price for a player like PJ Washington, I think we should have waited.  As many have said before me, we would have had more assets available this coming summer and could have afforded a better player who came available by combining those.  I really like the Gafford trade and I think he will make a big difference to our team.  I think our smaller 4s like DJJ and Grant Williams would have looked better next to another hot-blocking, rebounding big.  I don't see why we needed a desperation trade for PJ Washington.

As to PJ, he's only 25 but he's actually become worse with age.  His 3-point percentage has declined 4 straight years.  His defensive metrics on LEBRON and DPM are all negative.   There may be some talent there to reclamate.  Is Jason Kidd the coach to inspire PJ Washington to actually practice shooting and playing hard on defense? 

I expressed a lot of concerns when we traded the 2030 swap rights for Grant Williams.  I was fine with the Grant Williams contract.  I just couldn't believe we gave up the 2030 swap for him.  We gave up valuable asset for a guy who Boston wasn't going to re-sign anyway.  7 months later, Grant Williams became a negative contract.  Apparently, part of the function of the 2027 1st was to get off that bad contract.  There's a real possibility that the PJ Washington contract will also be considered a bad contract in a year.  

We'll all get to watch PJ play here over the rest of the season.  I hope he plays well and I'm wrong.  I'll acknowledge if I was.  I think there's real chance that plays no better than Grant Williams.  If his 3-point shot stays at 32.4%, then he will be a huge problem for our offense.  

If his DPM stays at -1.0, then he'll be another poor defender on the Mavs.  

We spent a lot in order to get a guy who has been bad this season.  So bad that he's backup on a team on pace to win only 16 games.  There should be more concern on this board about this trade.