Trade & FA 2023-24: PHI Keeping An Eye on Butler | Butler Wants Max Extension

[mvossman]

Not what I want to happen. What I think will happen. Hope I’m wrong.

Yeah, I read that as your opinion of the FO.  I think your fear would have been more understandable before this last offseason.  As long as folks are actually listening to Lindsey we shouldn't do anything too stupid.

[Winter]

Thinking about the Philly game, and the trade deadline....

I'm guessing Dallas would really like to keep Josh Green. Their interest in Wiggins, however, doesn't have to include Green. Most of the other trades for a wing I've seen include Green. Perhaps that's why the Wiggins rumor is still active.

They must find a backup center, so the Portis deal could still happen under certain circumstances. I doubt adding Wiggins and Portis makes anyone happy, but that may be the cost of keeping Green. that's one way to look at it. At this point, Green for PJ Washington by itself is a big nothingburger to me. That transaction would need to include other players for it to feel substantial.

[Smitty]

Yeah, I read that as your opinion of the FO.  I think your fear would have been more understandable before this last offseason.  As long as folks are actually listening to Lindsey we shouldn't do anything too stupid.

I just think they’ll try to sell Wiggins as a NBA champion and 2-way player. They don’t have players/contracts to trade that don’t require adding additional assets. It’s probably the only realistic move they can make without giving up “too much”. They will say health is the biggest addition and adding Wiggins is the big move.

[loki]

You don't draft a very raw prospect, spend his entire rookie contract developing him, sign him to a team friendly MLE-ish deal, then trade him when he is finally turning the corner and doing the things you've been expecting. None of these players in the rumor mill are worth trading Green for. Naturally other teams see the potential for growth and fit on their team and are asking for him. Team doesn't need to take a step back at all right now, they should be able to get something done with the 2027 1st and no Green. Green would only be worth adding in an OG/Siakam type deal and doesn't look like there's any of that left. Hardy also seems over his early Bullock slump and is back on track lately, although he's definitely not untradable but might be better off holding on to him.

Well said. The Mavs patience with Green is paying off if they can just avoid shooting themselves in the foot a little longer. I think Josh will be in the starting lineup for a long time to come.

[youzigizag]

You don't draft a very raw prospect, spend his entire rookie contract developing him, sign him to a team friendly MLE-ish deal, then trade him when he is finally turning the corner and doing the things you've been expecting. None of these players in the rumor mill are worth trading Green for. Naturally other teams see the potential for growth and fit on their team and are asking for him. Team doesn't need to take a step back at all right now, they should be able to get something done with the 2027 1st and no Green. Green would only be worth adding in an OG/Siakam type deal and doesn't look like there's any of that left. Hardy also seems over his early Bullock slump and is back on track lately, although he's definitely not untradable but might be better off holding on to him.

Cant like this post enough.

Kid has a few skill flaws...but his hustle/defense and 3 shot is what Luka needs.

The kid is an absolute killer passer as well.

[Chicagojk]

No trade for a Pf is available at trade deadline, how about Holmes and a second for Boucher? Toronto sucks and aren’t going anywhere. Boucher has same contract length as Holmes. Toronto gains a second and Dallas adds more size at Pf.

[youzigizag]

At some point we need to get Josh Green some help

[The Jom]

No trade for a Pf is available at trade deadline, how about Holmes and a second for Boucher?  Toronto sucks and aren’t going anywhere.  Boucher has same contract length as Holmes.  Toronto gains a second and Dallas adds more size at Pf.

I would rather play THJ at the 4 (like we have been) than give up any assets for Boucher. Don’t like his game. Don’t think he holds up against the physicality that has been the Mavs’ Achilles heel.

Also here’s a sure-fire unpopular opinion: too early to give up on GW. 

And another: stop with the back-up center talk. Maxi is our backup center.

[mvossman]

Thinking about the Philly game, and the trade deadline....

I'm guessing Dallas would really like to keep Josh Green. Their interest in Wiggins, however, doesn't have to include Green. Most of the other trades for a wing I've seen include Green. Perhaps that's why the Wiggins rumor is still active.

They must find a backup center, so the Portis deal could still happen under certain circumstances. I doubt adding Wiggins and Portis makes anyone happy, but that may be the cost of keeping Green. that's one way to look at it. At this point, Green for PJ Washington by itself is a big nothingburger to me. That transaction would need to include other players for it to feel substantial.

The best way to hold onto Green might be to do nothing, especially if Wiggins is the alternative.  I agree on the Green for PJ trade.  I'm not really interested in sending Green out for anybody we have been rumored for.

[loki]

I wouldn't burn a 2nd rounder on Boucher. He'll end up being trade fodder or dumped next offseason anyway.

[vfromlmf]

Isn't the easiest deal THJ for Wiggins straight up?

[KillerLeft]

Isn't the easiest deal THJ for Wiggins straight up?

I think that is the easiest way to guarantee Luka Dončić does not finish his career in Dallas.

I hope I am wrong, because I halfway expect it to happen.

Nobody wants to even consider this, but I honestly think the best move might just be to stand pat and get healthy. I would love to get PJ Washington, but I am not willing to move Green for him.

I will be fine if they just don’t make a bad deal.

[Jmaciscool]

I think that is the easiest way to guarantee Luka Dončić does not finish his career in Dallas.

I hope I am wrong, because I halfway expect it to happen.

Nobody wants to even consider this, but I honestly think the best move might just be to stand pat and get healthy. I would love to get PJ Washington, but I am not willing to move Green for him.

I will be fine if they just don’t make a bad deal.

I'd be totally fine with no deal. Let everyone get healthy (and stop worrying about potentially getting traded) and see what happens.

[F Gump]

Isn't the easiest deal THJ for Wiggins straight up?

The cap result ^ doesn't work for Mavs (they end up taxpayers). But THJ + Curry for Wiggins would work.

However, if they did such a deal, I would expect that the Mavs would want (and should be able to get) a pick or two out of that swap, because of the payroll differential that helps GS both now and later ($3M less payroll this season, $10M less payroll in 24-25, $28M and $30M in the following 2 seasons). OTOH it might be a big enough negative for DAL to kill the idea.

[RGP1981]

My opinion of the FO is not this low, not after this last offseason.

Are you, perhaps, being a prisoner of the moment? Cuban is still around. He could finna poke his head out again... at any moment.

[omahen]

The cap result ^ doesn't work for Mavs (they end up taxpayers). But THJ + Curry for Wiggins would work.

However, if they did such a deal, I would expect that the Mavs would want (and should be able to get) a pick or two out of that swap, because of the payroll differential that helps GS both now and later ($3M less payroll this season, $10M less payroll in 24-25, $28M and $30M in the following 2 seasons). OTOH it might be a big enough negative for DAL to kill the idea.

All reports indicate that saving money is not a priority for GSW. Their only priority is being competitive or gaining flexibility/assets to become more competitive. That is why I don't think any ideas for them to give up assets to get out of Wiggins contract make a lot of sense, unless a true difference maker is going their way. Contracts Mavs would be able to offer are not that. GSW gets easily under the second apron by optimizing CP3 and Klay new deals (or letting one or both go). 

Wiggins contract is of course bad and GSW can't upgrade that contract without serious assets attached. Their previous deals more or less limit the picks they can trade. Only one at TDL. Unless they get very lucky in the lottery, their 2024 pick will convert and go to Portland. That would give them 2025 and 2027 pick to trade in the summer. 2030 pick is very lightly protected (they lose it if it is not a top20 pick), so it would still have value. They have young players in Kuminga, Moody or Podziemsky they could trade. 

GSW team is quite deep, their problem is top end of rotation. Klay is a shadow of himself and more likely best suited to be a bench player than starter. Draymond is still good when he is available. Kuminga is developing into a decent starter. Their weakness is a top end player to replace Thompson and a center. But historically, they were always a team with a cheap center, so I guess that area wouldn't be their main priority. Their main need to hope to remain competitive is a two-way elite player, running mate for Curry. Basically a big guard.

Unless Wiggins turns it around, his contract would be still difficult to move in the summer and they can't get the player they need this TDL. Best contracts for them would be guys that would be expiring next season, which they could package with other assets in a trade for a star. This season, they don't have any other choice but try to be as competitive as possible. Their pick is only top4 protected, so very likely going to Portland. I think their choice is pretty much - trade Wiggins for something like THJ+Holmes. Get two deals that will be expiring next season and are still serviceable. A better defender with a similar contract structure would be better for them, but I guess it is not on the table. Unless they can get something like that, their best bet is imho to continue with Wiggins and hope he turns it around and increases his summer trade value. It can't really get much worse than it is at this point.

[Time Machine Dirk]

I think that is the easiest way to guarantee Luka Dončić does not finish his career in Dallas.

I hope I am wrong, because I halfway expect it to happen.

Nobody wants to even consider this, but I honestly think the best move might just be to stand pat and get healthy. I would love to get PJ Washington, but I am not willing to move Green for him.

I will be fine if they just don’t make a bad deal.

I agree 100 percent. THJ for Wiggins would be the worst trade ever for the Mavs. Wiggins is done! He isn't the same guy anymore and probably never will be again. His downward spiral has been happening for too long already.
I also think if the Mavs roster is finally healthy for only one quarter of the season, they will be fine and play better than .500 ball. So stay pat or make a minor move to get bigger maybe. Use no considerable trade assets.
It's vital to at least have Luka, Kyrie, Lively, Kleber and Green or Exum healthy to save the season.

[DanSchwartzgan]

All reports indicate that saving money is not a priority for GSW. 

GSW gets easily under the second apron by optimizing CP3 and Klay new deals (or letting one or both go). 

Sounds like saving money.  If money was no object, the old Warriors would trade CP3 to get something to help this season and would have already come to an extension agreement with Klay.

This time of year it is hard to know what is positioning and what is real.  We also don't know what the new rules will do to teams.  If GS didn't have big expiring contracts they'd probably have to trade someone big now before the aggregation rules kick in.  As you point out, they have options.  I agree the smart move would be a two for one where they get two useful players (doesn't have to be our players though).  They can always keep CP3 another year and use him in a deal with picks and youngsters for a bigger splash this summer.

[sefant]

All reports indicate that saving money is not a priority for GSW. Their only priority is being competitive or gaining flexibility/assets to become more competitive. That is why I don't think any ideas for them to give up assets to get out of Wiggins contract make a lot of sense, unless a true difference maker is going their way. Contracts Mavs would be able to offer are not that. GSW gets easily under the second apron by optimizing CP3 and Klay new deals (or letting one or both go). 

Wiggins contract is of course bad and GSW can't upgrade that contract without serious assets attached. Their previous deals more or less limit the picks they can trade. Only one at TDL. Unless they get very lucky in the lottery, their 2024 pick will convert and go to Portland. That would give them 2025 and 2027 pick to trade in the summer. 2030 pick is very lightly protected (they lose it if it is not a top20 pick), so it would still have value. They have young players in Kuminga, Moody or Podziemsky they could trade. 

GSW team is quite deep, their problem is top end of rotation. Klay is a shadow of himself and more likely best suited to be a bench player than starter. Draymond is still good when he is available. Kuminga is developing into a decent starter. Their weakness is a top end player to replace Thompson and a center. But historically, they were always a team with a cheap center, so I guess that area wouldn't be their main priority. Their main need to hope to remain competitive is a two-way elite player, running mate for Curry. Basically a big guard.

Unless Wiggins turns it around, his contract would be still difficult to move in the summer and they can't get the player they need this TDL. Best contracts for them would be guys that would be expiring next season, which they could package with other assets in a trade for a star. This season, they don't have any other choice but try to be as competitive as possible. Their pick is only top4 protected, so very likely going to Portland. I think their choice is pretty much - trade Wiggins for something like THJ+Holmes. Get two deals that will be expiring next season and are still serviceable. A better defender with a similar contract structure would be better for them, but I guess it is not on the table. Unless they can get something like that, their best bet is imho to continue with Wiggins and hope he turns it around and increases his summer trade value. It can't really get much worse than it is at this point.

Curry is also getting "older". He used to be top 5 in more or less every advanced stats. Compared to being a top 5 player, he is down to top 15-20 now. Tho rather in the Anthony Davis, Lauri, Tatum tier.

[omahen]

Sounds like saving money.  If money was no object, the old Warriors would trade CP3 to get something to help this season and would have already come to an extension agreement with Klay.

This time of year it is hard to know what is positioning and what is real.  We also don't know what the new rules will do to teams.  If GS didn't have big expiring contracts they'd probably have to trade someone big now before the aggregation rules kick in.  As you point out, they have options.  I agree the smart move would be a two for one where they get two useful players (doesn't have to be our players though).  They can always keep CP3 another year and use him in a deal with picks and youngsters for a bigger splash this summer.

I differentiate saving money (reduce tax payment) and second apron. All reports indicate GSW doesn't have a problem paying the tax and I sincerly doubt this is just positioning. I respect best journalist too highly to think they are just parrots repeating one side of the story. 

Second apron is bringing many other problems and my assumption is, all teams will try to stay below it. That is why I think GSW doesn't need to dump contracts now, because they will likely reduce their budget significantly by not guaranteeing CP3 last year (or use him in a trade bringing much less money back). I think they will need to make this move (the alternative is they let Klay walk). 

Warriors don't have much to trade and for several years they are walking a thin line between staying competitive while not sacrificing their whole future. That is why they don't trade their youngsters. 

I think Klay had very high expectations about his next contract, at least it was reported in this way. He was dreaming about same level deal he has now. Reality is, that even 20 mil per year deal is likely an overpay for what he is still able to do, as his fall from the cliff was deep this season. Same as with the youngsters case. Warriors would like to keep their big three that brought them so much success, but will not sacrifice their whole future for it. I think they will offer him another deal in a 20 per range for old times sake, which will far exceed what other teams would offer.

My main conclusion is - they are not forced to do anything and they will not pay assets just to dump Wiggins for some players that don't make them contenders. Assets are being saved for upgrades only. Players like THJ don't really make them any better as they are. They need an elite 2-way guard to think about contending.