Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Rookies can’t contribute in the playoffs
Braun

Can’t expect much out of picks in the 20’s
Braun

Can’t have vet min players part of a playoff rotation
Jeff Green

Can’t find playoff starters for the MLE
Brown

Players that can’t shoot we should avoid
Brown

2nd round picks don’t matter
Jokic

Not to mention all the UDFA’s and two-way guys on Miami

We must find the quality players on the cheap. And just look at the latest move of Denver. All the smart teams will be building through the draft and with other cheap players once they get their max slots filled. No excuse for the Mavs to not start doing this

Meh.  You're using the will be champions to denounce rules of thumb.  That's like denouncing CLE, ORL, WAS, CHA, PHX, NOP, SAC, DET, MIN, POR, PHI, OKC, DAL, and UTA (14 franchises) for whiffing on Giannis.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA (There's a reason why they call the movie Dumb and Dumber).

What you can do is analyze the gems that break those rules of thumb and try to figure out what was there that EVERYONE missed.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

One of my favorites for MLE Money this year, depending on what else we do, is Naz Reid.   I saw an article by Jake Fischer saying he was a target for the Suns last year.  What happens if he is over an MLE guy at around 15-17 per year.  Tough for Minnesota to justify that money with their current roster.    

So question, any way to give Naz Reid with Hardaway to PhX and Dallas gets Ayton.   Minnesota gets Maxi and ????.   Anyway for that to work without giving up #10 or our young players that would help Minny out???   Maxi and Wood seem like too many big guys for them.    Also not sure how you would make that trade legal.

Why on Earth would we want to package Naz Reid with MORE assets for Ayton????    Reid >>>> Ayton, at half the cost.  It's not close.

[The Jom]

. . . We must find the quality players on the cheap. And just look at the latest move of Denver. All the smart teams will be building through the draft and with other cheap players once they get their max slots filled. No excuse for the Mavs to not start doing this

Kleber
DFS
Brunson
Green
Hardy

Mavs do this too. Have been for awhile.

[audiosway]

I remember when they traded young, athletic Devin Harris for washed-up, slow Jason Kidd.

Kidd was 35 at the time and didn't come in as the highest paid player on the roster. I'm not saying that there aren't times you don't make trades. LeBron is still a great player even at 38. He's also about a year or two away from retiring and will take up nearly $42 million on the cap per year.

Kidd was a great defender even at 35. This team needs defenders that can shoot. Not an older version of Luka.

[chaparral]

Kidd was 35 at the time and didn't come in as the highest paid player on the roster. I'm not saying that there aren't times you don't make trades. LeBron is still a great player even at 38. He's also about a year or two away from retiring and will take up nearly $42 million on the cap per year.

Kidd was a great defender even at 35. This team needs defenders that can shoot. Not an older version of Luka.

I'm already tired of seeing all the LeBron to Mavs talk.  But I'm sure Cuban is loving it.

[The Jom]

I'm already tired of seeing all the LeBron to Mavs talk.  But I'm sure Cuban is loving it.

Here’s the thing, though. Mavs traded for Kyrie and tanked to keep their pick for some reason. It wasn’t cause they thought Luka, Kyrie + #10 win a championship. So what was it? Something specific, I’d wager. Not just a hope and a prayer.

[chaparral]

Here’s the thing, though. Mavs traded for Kyrie and tanked to keep their pick for some reason. It wasn’t cause they thought Luka, Kyrie + #10 win a championship. So what was it? Something specific, I’d wager. Not just a hope and a prayer.

With 2 game left in the season, it was the best move.

[SwisherPrice]

Rookies can’t contribute in the playoffs
Braun

Can’t expect much out of picks in the 20’s
Braun

Can’t have vet min players part of a playoff rotation
Jeff Green

Can’t find playoff starters for the MLE
Brown

Players that can’t shoot we should avoid
Brown

2nd round picks don’t matter
Jokic

Not to mention all the UDFA’s and two-way guys on Miami

We must find the quality players on the cheap. And just look at the latest move of Denver. All the smart teams will be building through the draft and with other cheap players once they get their max slots filled. No excuse for the Mavs to not start doing this

Mark Cuban has to be so confused watching the Nuggets dominate. He thinks the only way to have a great team is by creating a Super Team. The Heat Big Three forming in 2010 was so bad for the league but also bad for the Mavs because that's been Cuban's goal for team-building ever since.

[chaparral]

Mark Cuban has to be so confused watching the Nuggets dominate. He thinks the only way to have a great team is by creating a Super Team. The Heat Big Three forming in 2010 was so bad for the league but also bad for the Mavs because that's been Cuban's goal for team-building ever since.

Agree. 

Wondering if there are any Cuban fans on any Mavs sites.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Am I the only one watching the finals thinking the Luka/Kyrie two-man offensive scheme could be very much like Joker/Murray? IMO, you have Kidd watch EVERY minute of Joker/Murray on the floor at the same time before you look at adding any other pieces to the scheme.

Joker is the embodiment of position-less basketball.  Sound familiar?  For giggles I put Luka into my center rating model.  He ranks 4th, after Joker, Embiid, and AD.  So if you look at offense as position-less (which it should be in 2023), Luka fulfills our needed production as a center.

I don't think there's any argument that Kyrie could be at least as good as Murray in the Murray mode, Luka and Kyrie seamlessly switching ball handling duties precisely like Joker/Murray do.  It reminds me of an amazing band where the guitar players switch from lead to rhythm without a difference to the ear.

That said, let's ignore defense for a moment and see if we can we fill out a roster with the supporting pieces to make a DAL version of the Nuggets' offense work...

---

Matching Denver's Top 8 Man Rotation:

Nikola Jokic                       >       Luka Doncic            (younger, smaller, more scoring, less rebounding, more range)
Jammal Murray                  =       Kyrie Irving             (older, slightly smaller, more scoring, more efficient)
Aaron Gordon                    =       Naz Reid                 (younger, bigger, less explosive)
Michael Porter Jr                =       Christian Wood        (older, more rebounding)
K Coldwell-Pope              <<       Josh Green               (younger, taller, much more efficient)
Bruce Brown                     =       Tim Hardaway Jr       (older, more scoring, more range, less efficient, less distribution)
Jeff Green                         =      Markieff Morris          (kinda identical)
Christian Braun               <<       Jaden Hardy             (younger, smaller, more scoring, more range, more distribution, much more explosive)

[Mavs2021]

Am I the only one watching the finals thinking the Luka/Kyrie two-man offensive scheme could be very much like Joker/Murray? IMO, you have Kidd watch EVERY minute of Joker/Murray on the floor at the same time before you look at adding any other pieces to the scheme.

Joker is the embodiment of position-less basketball.  Sound familiar?  For giggles I put Luka into my center rating model.  He ranks 4th, after Joker, Embiid, and AD.  So if you look at offense as position-less (which it should be in 2023), Luka fulfills our needed production as a center.

I don't think there's any argument that Kyrie could be at least as good as Murray in the Murray mode, Luka and Kyrie seamlessly switching ball handling duties precisely like Joker/Murray do.  It reminds me of an amazing band where the guitar players switch from lead to rhythm without a difference to the ear.

That said, let's ignore defense for a moment and see if we can we fill out a roster with the supporting pieces to make a DAL version of the Nuggets' offense work...

---

Matching Denver's Top 8 Man Rotation:

Nikola Jokic                       >       Luka Doncic            (younger, smaller, more scoring, less rebounding, more range)
Jammal Murray                  >     Kyrie Irving             (older, slightly smaller, more scoring, more efficient)
Aaron Gordon                    >       Naz Reid                 (younger, bigger, less explosive)
Michael Porter Jr                >       Christian Wood        (older, more rebounding)
K Coldwell-Pope              >>       Josh Green               (younger, taller, much more efficient)
Bruce Brown                     =      Tim Hardaway Jr       (older, more scoring, more range, less efficient, less distribution)
Jeff Green                         =      Markieff Morris          (kinda identical)
Christian Braun               <<       Jaden Hardy             (younger, smaller, more scoring, more range, more distribution, much more explosive)

Fixed it for you.

[HAguiar95]

Matching Denver's Top 8 Man Rotation

I think it's a great exercise, but I gotta disagree on some valuations:

Jokic    >   Doncic  - Agreed
Murray < Irving   - I think Kyrie is a better player.   
AG    >> Reid     - Reid is nowhere near AG on defense and hustle.       
MPJ    > Wood   -  MPJ's size actually shows on defense, contrary of Wood.
KCP    = Green   - Green is not there yet on defense, but I think it's a fair comp for next season.           
Brown = THJ      - Different skills, but similar impact.  
Green < Bullock - Bullock actually play 20+ minutes on a playoff team.         
Braun = Hardy   - Still not ther on Hardy unless he shows something on D.

[Scott41theMavs]

Fixed it for you.

Murray is not better than Kyrie, unless he's significantly better on defense.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I think it's a great exercise, but I gotta disagree on some valuations:

Jokic    >   Doncic  - Agreed
Murray < Irving   - I think Kyrie is a better player.   
AG    >> Reid     - Reid is nowhere near AG on defense and hustle.       
MPJ    > Wood   -  MPJ's size actually shows on defense, contrary of Wood.
KCP    = Green   - Green is not there yet on defense, but I think it's a fair comp for next season.           
Brown = THJ      - Different skills, but similar impact.  
Green < Bullock - Bullock actually play 20+ minutes on a playoff team.         
Braun = Hardy   - Still not ther on Hardy unless he shows something on D.

Again, this is to establish an offensive point, void of defense at this point.  I'd like to baseline the offense, and then discuss defense.

Jokic    >   Doncic  - Yup
Murray < Irving   - Yup   
AG    = Reid     - They really are close on offense.  Hold tight on defense.       
MPJ    = Wood   -  On offense, Wood has the edge in rebounding.   Hold tight on defense.
KCP    < Green   - On offense, Green has the same production at a higher efficiency.           
Brown = THJ      - Yup  
Green < Bullock - Yup,  Excellent correction         
Braun < Hardy   -  Hardy is superior on offense   Hold tight on defense.

Thoughts?

---

Murray is not better than Kyrie, unless he's significantly better on defense.

You are correct.  I want to baseline the offense, then go to defense.  In this vacuum, Kyrie is superior.

[Mavs2021]

Murray is not better than Kyrie, unless he's significantly better on defense.

Last two play-offs:

27/7/5. 50/45/90 shooting, WCF
27/7/6. 48/40/93 shooting, likely NBA championships.

23/4/6. 47/37/92 shooting, 1-4 2nd round exit.
21/5/5. 44/38/100 shooting, 1st round exit sweep.

Murray is a better offensive player than Kyrie and a better defensive player. That´s before we even get into....

26 years old vs. 31 years old, 34M vs. 50M, Sane vs. Insane.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Last two play-offs:

27/7/5. 50/45/90 shooting, WCF
27/7/6. 48/40/93 shooting, likely NBA championships.

23/4/6. 47/37/92 shooting, 1-4 2nd round exit.
21/5/5. 44/38/100 shooting, 1st round exit sweep.

Murray is a better offensive player than Kyrie and a better defensive player. That´s before we even get into....

26 years old vs. 31 years old, 34M vs. 50M, Sane vs. Insane.

Ok, but the overreaching point here is to build a team in the Nugget profile offensively.  Game to game, all things considered in offensive production, I'd argue they are at least very comparable.  Murray turned into Jason Kidd in his distribution this postseason.  He's never brought that, but great players do great things.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

Jokic   -   Doncic
Murray   -   Irving
Gordon   -   Reid
Porter Jr   -   Wood
KCP   -   Green
Brown   -   THJ
Green   -   Bullock
Braun   -   Hardy

I think we've somewhat agreed these two 8-man rotations are comparable.  Here's my take on who has an advantage in offensive categories...

Overall Offense - Tie
Scoring - Mavs
Efficiency - Nuggs
Range - Mavs
Jump Shooting - Mavs
Scoring in the Paint - Nuggs
Fast Break - Nuggs
Foul Drawing - Mavs
Isolation - Mavs
Distribution - Mavs
Rebounding - Nuggs




Thoughts?

[Chicagojk]

Hollinger had a chat with the clippers guy on the athletic. Several topics but one was the need for the clippers to improve their PF position. Two names group up was Toppin and Avdjia from Washington. He threw up Toppin for the clippers 30th pick if the Knicks had concerns about Toppin’s next contract. I wouldn’t think the Knicks would want to help Dallas as they have our pick probably. Avdjia is the type of gamble that may make sense for Dallas. Whatever they decide they need to be right.

I was watching Hendricks highlights yesterday and wonder how him or Walker would look like if you took a super gamble with Jonathan Issac? That would be a tall wing lineup. Isaac barely plays any longer and has some other questions, but he could be one of those buy low candidates who could either never play again or turn into a bargain.

[loki]

Hollinger had a chat with the clippers guy on the athletic.  Several topics but one was the need for the clippers to improve their PF position.  Two names group up was Toppin and Avdjia from Washington.  He threw up Toppin for the clippers 30th pick if the Knicks had concerns about Toppin’s next contract.  I wouldn’t think the Knicks would want to help Dallas as they have our pick probably.  Avdjia is the type of gamble that may make sense for Dallas.  Whatever they decide they need to be right.

I was watching Hendricks highlights yesterday and wonder how him or Walker would look like if you took a super gamble with Jonathan Issac?  That would be a tall wing lineup.  Isaac barely plays any longer and has some other questions, but he could be one of those buy low candidates who could either never play again or turn into a bargain.

Avdija has some playmaking ability but can't really shoot. I'm not sure he's the right fit with Luka and Kyrie.

If we're looking for a young, under-performing forward to take a chance on, I'd prefer Patrick Williams. Solid defender, good 3pt shot. His motor is questionable and he got benched after Chicago picked up Beverley. Maybe they're prepared to move on before his next deal.

I see Isaac as the type of player you take a chance on after he's been waived. He's only guaranteed 7.6m out of 17.4m this season, and the last year is fully non-guaranteed. I have a hard time seeing Orlando hanging on to him through the life of that contract.

[omahen]

Hollinger had a chat with the clippers guy on the athletic.  Several topics but one was the need for the clippers to improve their PF position.  Two names group up was Toppin and Avdjia from Washington.  He threw up Toppin for the clippers 30th pick if the Knicks had concerns about Toppin’s next contract.  I wouldn’t think the Knicks would want to help Dallas as they have our pick probably.  Avdjia is the type of gamble that may make sense for Dallas.  Whatever they decide they need to be right.

I was watching Hendricks highlights yesterday and wonder how him or Walker would look like if you took a super gamble with Jonathan Issac?  That would be a tall wing lineup.  Isaac barely plays any longer and has some other questions, but he could be one of those buy low candidates who could either never play again or turn into a bargain.

I think Isaac is very likely to be waived. The path to him, imho, is a vet min with a promise of plenty minutes or even a starting spot. If one believes he has something left.