Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[mvossman]

Geez there's a balance here fellas. You know you can't just look at stats. I'm not going to make any more posts about Kuzma but this big-name, overpriced, terrible fit, inefficient chucker stuff is nonsense. Kuzma's not winning any MVPs, that's for sure, but he doesn't suck. I mean, you put Jimmy Butler and the focus of the entire Heat defense on him the whole game and you get 5-16 with 13 pts, a bunch of fouls and 1 assist. What else do you expect? It's Jimmy freaking Butler. That doesn't mean he wouldn't regularly go 7-12 with 18 pts and 8 boards if he were the 3rd option in Dallas and guarded by Haywood Highsmiths, Michal Porter Jrs, KATs, Giddeys and Barneses of the world. That doesn't make Kuzma a different player. Just a very different situation.

You are very focused on the fact that Kuz is the number one guy in Washington, but that's been for half a season.  He was number 3 last year behind Beal and KP, and he was nowhere near the number 1 guy in LA, and yet his true shooting has never waivered.  Its right around 54 his entire career.  There is plenty of evidence to suggest his efficiency will not go up significantly just because he wont be the number one.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

What are EITHER of those teams thinking, tnqmfh?

I can kind of see it from Chicago’s perspective, but why couch it like Bogdanovic is the goal, as if he’s the missing piece for them to compete this year?

Bogie is what a lot of contenders are looking for. He can flat out score despite not being overly athletic or quick. He didn't miss a shot, 2pt, 3 pt, or ft in the 1st half in a loss against the Clippers last night. Pretty sure there will be a market for him if Detroit decides to deal him. I just don't like trading within the division trades.

[mvossman]

Wouldn’t be surprised if SD and 2 SRPs is the winning bid for Murray and Atl is trying to get someone to offer more.
I proposed a trade that I think Atl takes and accomplishes more salary savings on Discord. It also fits rumors.

Claxton, SD, ONeale and 2 FRPs for Murray and Hunter

Now, with Hunter in, they have little need for Cam Johnson, so let me add to the trade to make this Mavs centric.

To Nets - Murray, Hunter, GWill, Holmes, SRP from Orl, SRP from Dal
To Orl - THJ
To Atl - Harris, ONeale, SD, FRP from Bkn, FRP from Dal
To Dal - Cap n Cam

Luka/Kyrie/Green/Cam/Cap
Exum/Hardy/DJJ/Maxi/Lively

Go into the offseason with 2 FRPs to get a starting level SF and backup PF.

Luka/Kyrie/acquisition/Cam/Cap
Exum/Hardy/Green/acquisition/Lively

With a 2 FRP level SF that is a contender IMO.

Edit: After seeing smitty’s proposal, looks like Nets don’t need to add Claxton’s salary.

Cam is very high on my list, but I don't think it makes sense to spend over 20 mil in cap for another center.

[mvossman]

Well GW is a better trade for us, but less likely I think.

I really think someone like Portis is exactly what Dallas is looking for. He's Gafford with a 3-pt shot. I'd be all over that.

Portis is not Gafford with a 3 point shot.  He doesn't protect the rim and is not a particularly good defender in general (the is a reason the proposed trade was specifically to improve defense).  He would make sense on this team to beef up the second unit, but I don't think I would give up Green for him.  I would do the proposed trade for GWill straight up.

[Smitty]

Player A

31.5 MPG
21.8 PPG
6.5 RBS
4.3 AST
2.6 TOV
32.9 3PT%
51.3 eFG%
80.1 FT%
54.1 TS%
30.1 USG%
-2.1 DBPM
110.5 ORTG
122.5 DRTG
-11.9 NetRTG
-393 plus/minus

Salary: 25,568,183


Player B

30.2 MPG
18.3 PPG
3.7 RBS
1.7 AST
1.0 TOV
36.6 3PT%
53.3 eFG%
87.2 FT%
57.0 TS%
23.4 USG%
-2.8 DBPM
117.8 ORTG
119.5 DRTG
-1.7 NetRTG
-28 plus/minus

Salary: 17,897,728

[Mavs2021]

Just read on ESPN, the Knicks defense went from the league's worst to best after adding OG. That's staggering.

Also 99.9% a big fat lie, too. Thibs having the worst defense in the league is as likely as Gran Williams measuring at 7´0.

[vfromlmf]

Also 99.9% a big fat lie, too. Thibs having the worst defense in the league is as likely as Gran Williams measuring at 7´0.

The Knicks gave up a gargantuan 124.4 points per game in December, prior to the trade.

They cut that mark by nearly a quarter in January, allowing just 100 per game -- marking the NBA's largest improvement in points-per-game allowed in a month, per ESPN's Stats & Information.

Parse it differently and the outcome is still the same: New York had the league's worst defense in December, hemorrhaging an NBA-high 123.6 points per 100 possessions. With Anunoby in the lineup in January, though, the Knicks limited opponents to a league-best 104.4 points per 100 possessions.

[KillerLeft]

Bogie is what a lot of contenders are looking for. He can flat out score despite not being overly athletic or quick. He didn't miss a shot, 2pt, 3 pt, or ft in the 1st half in a loss against the Clippers last night. Pretty sure there will be a market for him if Detroit decides to deal him. I just don't like trading within the division trades.

Yeah, there will be a market for him...but why is that tweet written like Chicago is a contender? BOTH Chicago and Detroit should be selling stuff for draft capital, imho.

[vfromlmf]

Player A

31.5 MPG
21.8 PPG
6.5 RBS
4.3 AST
2.6 TOV
32.9 3PT%
51.3 eFG%
80.1 FT%
54.1 TS%
30.1 USG%
-2.1 DBPM
110.5 ORTG
122.5 DRTG
-11.9 NetRTG
-393 plus/minus

Salary: 25,568,183


Player B

30.2 MPG
18.3 PPG
3.7 RBS
1.7 AST
1.0 TOV
36.6 3PT%
53.3 eFG%
87.2 FT%
57.0 TS%
23.4 USG%
-2.8 DBPM
117.8 ORTG
119.5 DRTG
-1.7 NetRTG
-28 plus/minus

Salary: 17,897,728

Player A is a 6' 10" forward who might take minutes from Grant Williams or DJJ

Player B is a 6' 5" guard who takes minutes from Green and Exum

[mvossman]

The Knicks gave up a gargantuan 124.4 points per game in December, prior to the trade.

They cut that mark by nearly a quarter in January, allowing just 100 per game -- marking the NBA's largest improvement in points-per-game allowed in a month, per ESPN's Stats & Information.

Parse it differently and the outcome is still the same: New York had the league's worst defense in December, hemorrhaging an NBA-high 123.6 points per 100 possessions. With Anunoby in the lineup in January, though, the Knicks limited opponents to a league-best 104.4 points per 100 possessions.

Thats kind of different than what the quote implies.  The quote makes it look like they were the worst defense for the season, and since the OG acquisition they are the best.  Looking at just the prior month is a smaller sample where strange things can happen.  I have not looked it up, but I'm going to guess that NY was not the worst defense (points per 100) for the season.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

Yeah, there will be a market for him...but why is that tweet written like Chicago is a contender? BOTH Chicago and Detroit should be selling stuff for draft capital, imho.

Agree. Don't have a clue...

[DanSchwartzgan]

Player A

31.5 MPG
21.8 PPG
6.5 RBS
4.3 AST
2.6 TOV
32.9 3PT%
51.3 eFG%
80.1 FT%
54.1 TS%
30.1 USG%
-2.1 DBPM
110.5 ORTG
122.5 DRTG
-11.9 NetRTG
-393 plus/minus

Salary: 25,568,183


Player B

30.2 MPG
18.3 PPG
3.7 RBS
1.7 AST
1.0 TOV
36.6 3PT%
53.3 eFG%
87.2 FT%
57.0 TS%
23.4 USG%
-2.8 DBPM
117.8 ORTG
119.5 DRTG
-1.7 NetRTG
-28 plus/minus

Salary: 17,897,728

Could you do the one where Player B plays for one of the worst teams in the league and Player A gets to play next to Luka Doncic?  I'm kind of wondering if the Net Rating numbers might be different.  Just a theory.

[vfromlmf]

Of course, I see your point and agree, Kuzma and THJ are similar but different in important ways. I'm one who doesn't think THJ is a bad player. He's a 6th man of the year candidate. We all know his flaws and question how much he contributes to winning. Kuzma costs more, but he's bigger. Neither is super efficient but both can score. Kuzma is the better defender and rebounder, but he's no stopper, and he costs more. Kuzma is younger. EDIT to add, per Dan's comment, THJ gets to play with Luka! Kuz gets to play with Jordan Poole.

The deal I'd like to see, if Indiana would cooperate, is to deal THJ for expiring Hield. The Pacers tried to tie up Buddy but they couldn't come to terms. It's likely Indiana sees Hield and THJ as similar players, and my guess is they would be happy paying THJ's declining salary for a couple more years rather than lose Hield for nothing or overpay. Maybe you get an asset out of the Pacers as well.

Then you send Hield and expiring Smoove to WAS for Kuzma as a straight salary dump along with a couple of seconds. Maybe you expand the deal by adding Green for Avidja and a first instead of the seconds. I think Kuz will be worth more than expiring and seconds though.

As I mentioned previously I think Kuzma is expiring + young player + 1st

[Smitty]

The other player the Warriors are looking to move is Andrew Wiggins, whose plus-minus splits this season are essentially a horror show. The team with the most interest in Wiggins over the last two weeks, according to sources, is the Dallas Mavericks. Details of talks aren't known.
Wiggins would provide Dallas with a more stable small forward option who can also play power forward, as free agency acquisition Grant Williams has been disappointing.

The other player Dallas has shown significant interest in is Charlotte Hornets forward Miles Bridges, despite his suspension last year for domestic violence, but the most interested party for Bridges currently is the Phoenix Suns, multiple sources said, and Yahoo reported. The Suns are considered to be the "leader" for Bridges, but with a week to go before the deadline, that doesn't mean much.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/nba-tr...and-lakers

[omahen]

Die-Hard Chicago Bulls Fans (@DieHardCBfans)
The Bulls are focused on acquiring Bojan Bogdanović with young assets, per @TheAthletic

The trade talks are serious, per @ZachLowe_NBA

Potential Trade:

The #Bulls Trade: Zach LaVine & PWill

The #Pistons Trade: Bogdanovic, Jaden Ivey, Ausar Thompson, Joe Harris (expiring)

This tweet makes very little sense. In a trade as described, Bogi obviously isn't the prize. Its Ivey and Thompson, both of whom Detroit marked as untouchable a week or two ago.

[Smitty]

Could you do the one where Player B plays for one of the worst teams in the league and Player A gets to play next to Luka Doncic?  I'm kind of wondering if the Net Rating numbers might be different.  Just a theory.

For a significant cost, you can definitely see what the difference could be

[mvossman]

Could you do the one where Player B plays for one of the worst teams in the league and Player A gets to play next to Luka Doncic?  I'm kind of wondering if the Net Rating numbers might be different.  Just a theory.

Yeah, net rating and on/off is not very useful cross teams.  What can be pointed out is that Kuz is at the very bottom of the list for both net rating and defensive rating on the Wizards, which is concerning.  Tim is not much better on the Mavs.

[vfromlmf]

Could you do the one where Player B plays for one of the worst teams in the league and Player A gets to play next to Luka Doncic?  I'm kind of wondering if the Net Rating numbers might be different.  Just a theory.

This is exactly my point. We all know context matters but we tend to forget and start comparing numbers and advanced stats that don't have much meaning unless you're really scouting the player and deep diving on each situation, including system, coaching philosophy, teammates, etc. It's unlikely any of us have the time or expertise to do that. In the end, we'll all have to trust the Mavericks are doing just that. 

That's not to say stats don't matter. If Kuzma were averaging 30 it would mean more than averaging 22. It's hard just to score 30 points. And it's really really hard to consistently put up 30. If you're averaging 30 in the NBA, you're probably a damn good basketball player. But I'm not sure it means much more than that, absent context.

Efficient or not, what THJ does for the Mavs is critical. He provides spacing that no other rotation wing does, he takes difficult shots, and he scores. Dallas needs those points, so I'd be concerned with replacing THJ with a guy like Avdija who doesn't space the floor and isn't a scorer. It might work wonderfully if Avdija is as good on defense as some think. But it's a gamble.

I would not be concerned with replacing THJ's scoring with Kuzma though. In the end, the points might come on similar efficiency but Kuz will score for sure. He would bring improved size, rebounding and defense. Most importantly, Kuz might close games with Luka, Ky, Exum/Green, and Lively. In that situation you have a physical 6' 10" dude on the floor instead of a 6' 5" guard playing power forward. That in itself will make this team better.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The other player the Warriors are looking to move is Andrew Wiggins, whose plus-minus splits this season are essentially a horror show. The team with the most interest in Wiggins over the last two weeks, according to sources, is the Dallas Mavericks. Details of talks aren't known.
Wiggins would provide Dallas with a more stable small forward option who can also play power forward, as free agency acquisition Grant Williams has been disappointing.

Good.  Something besides Kuzma to argue about (er, discuss).

At some point I wonder if Dallas is in on all of these PF types (Grant, Two-Way Wig, Kuzma, Hunter, PJ, DFS and even Bridges) is Dallas feeling that any of these would work at the right price.  Or, is it Dallas sending a message to the team who has the one they really want that they could go a different direction at any moment.

Stein showing starting on 97.1 right now with Jake F.


Edit:  FWIW Stein really likes the fit of Kuzma in Dallas.  Washington needs first round picks and will likely be patient to get what they want as Kuzma is on a very tradeable contract and will still be so this summer or at the next TDL.

[Scott41theMavs]

Good.  Something besides Kuzma to argue about (er, discuss).

At some point I wonder if Dallas is in on all of these PF types (Grant, Two-Way Wig, Kuzma, Hunter, PJ, DFS and even Bridges) is Dallas feeling that any of these would work at the right price.  Or, is it Dallas sending a message to the team who has the one they really want that they could go a different direction at any moment.

Stein showing starting on 97.1 right now with Jake F.


Edit:  FWIW Stein really likes the fit of Kuzma in Dallas.  Washington needs first round picks and will likely be patient to get what they want as Kuzma is on a very tradeable contract and will still be so this summer or at the next TDL.

If you all think it would be bad for us to trade THJ and/or GWill with a FRP and a youngster now, wait until we trade our whole war chest for him this summer.