Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[Smitty]

Read more closely.


"To me, OMax and 2027 (and say Hardaway) is too much for Kuzma.  It may take that, but I'd prefer the 2027 pick not be unprotected if we do.  Would I go unprotected if Gafford/Holmes was included?  Probably."  

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Maybe for Shamet.  I doubt that package gets you Jones along with Kuz/Gafford.

It’s the “it may take that” that scares me to death.

[Nowitzki Way]

Maybe for Shamet.  I doubt that package gets you Jones along with Kuz/Gafford.

Very true. I think i'd probably still do that deal with Shamet.

[SleepingHero]

Catching up with several pages of this thread has been entertaining.  Kuzma seemed like it had momentum and some people seemed to be talking them themselves into it and then suddenly.....BAM.  Its all about Lebron.

I'm going to chose to ignore the Lebron thing.  I don't want it to happen.  I get that it's LeBron, but I've never liked him (respect him, but don't like him) and I don't want to cheer for him.  Trade matching is disruptive and difficult.  I don't like his age and contract.  What we'll have left when he's done with us will be total desolation.  I'd rather Luka try to win this without this type of help.

I've been interested in Washington as a trade partner and I'm fine with Kuzma.  The Kuzma/Kidd connection was new information to me and another reason to think this might have legs.  I go back and forth with whether I'd prefer a THJ based outgoing package (which presumably leaves GWill here as a backup) or a GWill based package (which presumably leaves THJ here as a backup).  It is interesting (at least to me) that THJ's money misses matching Kuzma's money by a few thousand.  It is almost like they designed the first year to force Dallas to add a player to any THJ based deal.

Washington wants picks, so 2027 in some form or fashion is gone in this deal.  If you are them and take an objective view of our roster and what they will build around, they probably don't value Hardy (with Poole there) and probably would value OMax as part of a Avdija/Bilal/OMax wing group.  To me, OMax and 2027 (and say Hardaway) is too much for Kuzma.  It may take that, but I'd prefer the 2027 pick not be unprotected if we do.  Would I go unprotected if Gafford/Holmes was included?  Probably.  THJ/OMax/2027 for Kuzma/Gafford?  Kuzma isn't dramatically different than THJ.  But, we have guys who can play guard and need more wing size.  Kuzma rebounds better and passes/creates better and is a better fit in the starting lineup and in 'any two-of' lineups with Luka or Kyrie.  But, the main thing is he has a defensive gear (when he choses to use it) that THJ just doesn't have.  Gafford solves the backup C issue for years to come.  So, yeah, I'd do it.

The idea that we somehow could add Avdija to the above is nuts.  We don't have the juice for all three.  I'd be more than fine though if Avdija was substituted for Kuzma.  Maybe that deal is GWill/Holmes/OMax/2027 for Avdija/Gafford.  That makes a ton of sense to me.  One other reminder...Shamet has a very flexible contract and Washington has a TPE that can absorb either of Holmes or GWill.  So some of the consideration for a deal with them can be future roster building tools that don't get cashed in until the summer.

I don't know if I'm out of touch or unrealistic, but I am so staunchly against trading the 2027 for anything less than a star that any deal I see with it included for mediocre role players makes me violently queasy. 

Kuzma's fit on the team is questionable. Sure we can say he brings size and rebounding. But the amount of holes we can poke with his drive, efficiency, and defense, is enough to question why we'd even want him in the first place. 

Why would we want to give up the '27 for that? Not only the '27 but OMax as well? It reeks of short term thinking and akin to the type of deals Donnie made on his way out (that JJ Reddick deal I talked myself into still annoys me, why'd we give a 2nd??)

I forgot what podcast I heard this on but they said something absurd like 75% of all available firsts are held by 11 teams. Mavs going into the summer with 3 available (and attractive) firsts is huge. Giving up that for Kuzma just doesn't make sense to me. Further, we have to build on our fantastic future building summer, not take pieces of it away. OMax used as a throw in to me is the gravest sin this team can make. Sure he looks raw right now, but in 2 years? He could either be our starting PF or our most attractive trade piece outside of Luka. 


My limit for any Kuzma deal is 2 2nds and 1 of Green or Hardy. If Gafford is included then I'm fine with both of them. That's why the only way I've entertained such a deal is shipping THJ off to ORL for one of their two late 2024 firsts and combining our 2 good 2nds for WAS. Mavs keep their flexibility for future trades that way and WAS can say they got 3 picks for Kuz as they fill their treasure chest.

[SleepingHero]

NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral)
"LeBron won't be traded, and we aren't asking to be,"

Rich Paul

[Nowitzki Way]

My limit for any Kuzma deal is 2 2nds and 1 of Green or Hardy. If Gafford is included then I'm fine with both of them. That's why the only way I've entertained such a deal is shipping THJ off to ORL for one of their two late 2024 firsts and combining our 2 good 2nds for WAS. Mavs keep their flexibility for future trades that way and WAS can say they got 3 picks for Kuz as they fill their treasure chest.

I hope thats what the hold up is. We're waiting to see if we can get a 1st for Timmy, and use that to ship off for Kuzma or maybe even something else. 

Seems like a lot of Kuzma to Dallas smoke. i think that part may be done. But its the outgoing back to Washington that has this still in limbo.

[Winter]

I thought the LeBron thing was silly. I had to wait until the rumor faded to actually feel compelled to post here. And I completely agree with Dan (and SleepingHero) on what it would take to get me on board with a Washington Trade

Either Kuzma/Gafford or Kuzma/Deni given the likely cost. But I'm not likely on board for spending all the draft assets and players on Kuzma alone. That just doesn't rock my boat. I'm a big Omax fan, but you can't hold back on him for two players of starting caliber.

[BigDirk41]

I think it's wishful thinking that THJ and a first doesn't go out in a Washington trade. I understand, but I don't think it's practical.

[youzigizag]

Im a THJ critic...but like the way he is playing last couple of weeks(less bad shots and chucking THJ)

Is THJ gonna be one of these players we let go for cheap and then watch some other team flip him for something far better than we got for him?

It just seems like that is going to be the case.

We trade him for peanuts...he goes on heaters and some team flips him this summer for good return after we couldnt do it for 3 years of trying. Looks so predictable.

[Chicagojk]

I tend to agree. I will add though, I don't think Washington would want Hardaway. So it is then trying to find a third team. Then the discussion is what else does Washington want...if they want more. That is probably where a lot of the conversation is if Dallas really is interested. My offer wouldn't go past Hardaway to a third team and washington gettting our 27 first, expiring and that third party draft consideration.

Also, lets not fool ourselves that first round pick in 2027 is a great pick. Could it be? Sure. The one thing is limits us is our flexibility this summer. I am just not sure what level of player we are going to get with Hardaway, Holmes and three firsts. If that player is too good, the pick hoarding teams enter the picture. So while our 2027 pick is solid value, it is several years down the road. We aren't even offering expirinigs. So I think to even get a seat at the table we need to be offering 27 first plus whatever Hardaway can bring.

Then lets talk about the 20% Mavs tax. That is adding 20% to your trades because you know the Mavs always give up a little more than you expect.

[Chicagojk]

Im a THJ critic...but like the way he is playing thus far this year...

Is THJ gonna be one of these players we let go for cheap and then watch some other team flip him for something far better than we got for him?

It just seems like that is going to be the case.

We flip him...he goes on heaters and some team flips him this summer for good return after we couldnt do it for 3 years of trying.  Looks so predictable.

He has been good.    I just don't think he is in our long range plans and is always an odd fit trying to play him with our finishing group.  It just makes us really small.   

Mavs have supposedly been trying to trade him for a few years with limited interest.  I think you can loop him in with Buddy Heild, Trent Jr, Clarkson, and a few others.  Hardaway probably better than some, worse than others.   Those players typically don't bring a lot back in return though in trade.   

I would be surprised if Hardaway goes somewhere else and plays better than he is currently playing.   I think he could help a contender though....but so could those other names above.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/net...d=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b1a75ae96f16462984fb2e635a026a15&ei=54


Did the Nets turn this down for DFS? Hard to imagine as his play hasn't been as good as he was here.

[youzigizag]

He has been good.    I just don't think he is in our long range plans and is always an odd fit trying to play him with our finishing group.  It just makes us really small.   

Mavs have supposedly been trying to trade him for a few years with limited interest.  I think you can loop him in with Buddy Heild, Trent Jr, Clarkson, and a few others.  Hardaway probably better than some, worse than others.   Those players typically don't bring a lot back in return though in trade.   

I would be surprised if Hardaway goes somewhere else and plays better than he is currently playing.   I think he could help a contender though....but so could those other names above.

It just seems like one of those situations that is primed to turn into "Look how bad our FO is...we couldnt trade THJ for 3 years, we get rid of him for cheap and so and so flips him for a lightly protected first"

Just seems so so predictable.

I like THJ if he played like he has the past couple of games.

[mvossman]

Read more closely.


"To me, OMax and 2027 (and say Hardaway) is too much for Kuzma.  It may take that, but I'd prefer the 2027 pick not be unprotected if we do.  Would I go unprotected if Gafford/Holmes was included?  Probably."  

I read closely.  That statement says you would prefer to protect the pick but might not be able to.  Either way its the first (possibly protected) along with Omax.  I hate that (either case) with a passion.

[KillerLeft]

Guys, guys, guys… I can’t believe I have to remind you of this:

The Mavs cannot trade O-Max. I forbid it.

[youzigizag]

Guys, guys, guys… I can’t believe I have to remind you of this:

The Maps cannot trade O-Max. I forbid it.

If you want to put it in to perspective on why some are high on OMax even though he looks raw and a little uncoordinated even after 3 years of college(if true...it is concerning)...

Against the TWolves...if you watched Naz Reed, who a lot of posters on here liked due to size, mobility and 3 shot, he moved around very well for his size.   But Omax speed and quickness made Reed look slow even though he was moving well. I guess an easier way to say it is....OMax made Reed look like an inferior athlete even though Reed is more coordinated and smoother at bball. There is major potential there.

I get it...most here would probably trade OMax for Reed right now based on size and fit.

OMax is a project for sure.  But if he polishes a few things up quickly he could be disruptive with that size, length, speed and athleticism.

I just wouldnt include him in a trade unless its for a star.   Develop your young players...not flip them for rentals or old guys.

If I am the Mavs...I am dumping as much resources as possible into this kid while he is here until he makes it or until you draw the line that he aint it.

The 3 years of college argument is valid, though.   You should look more polished after 3 years of college.   I did like OMax defensive footwork when Townes was driving though.   I like that he keeps his hands straight up in the air and slides with the driving ball carrier.   Its hard to get around him and his length makes it hard to get a shot off.   Quicker guys can create good space against him to get a shot off though.   

He's got perfect size, speed and athleticism for todays NBA.   I wouldnt trade him so early assuming he is professional and willing to work on his game.

[ThisIStheYear]

Putting Omax in a deal for Kuzna is insane. Look at these guys mediocre true shooting percentages. He’s inefficient. Now, maybe if you get Gafford too but not for just Kuz.

[mvossman]

Also, lets not fool ourselves that first round pick in 2027 is a great pick.  Could it be?  Sure.  

Why is this pick not a great pick?  Kyrie will be in his late 30s and probably not here and Luka may be gone by then.  It could be a crazy valuable pick, especially if unprotected.  First round picks like the ones Indy sent out for Siakam are not great picks because you are fairly sure they will late.  That Mavs pick has possibilities to be a goldmine which makes it very valuable.  Teams don't generally trade picks (at least unprotected) that are likely to be early lottery).

[DanSchwartzgan]

I forgot what podcast I heard this on but they said something absurd like 75% of all available firsts are held by 11 teams. Mavs going into the summer with 3 available (and attractive) firsts is huge.  

My limit for any Kuzma deal is 2 2nds and 1 of Green or Hardy. If Gafford is included then I'm fine with both of them.  

If 11 teams have 75% of the available picks, doesn't that mean those 11 teams are well positioned to outbid us for anything worth having?

Chicago is right.  When is the last time a deal was announced and we all sat around and said...'man, that was cheap'.  'I can't believe it only cost....'.   That never happens.  We can be staunchly opposed to this or that, but we need to be somewhat realistic.  We overvalue our stuff compared to reality.

We can talk about two seconds and this/that if we want.  To me, it feels so unrealistic that I don't see the point.  We know the price tag is higher than that and if that is the stand we take then what we are staunchly opposed to is completing a deal.  

Kuzma with Lively, Luka, Green and Kyrie solves our starting five for years to come.  Gafford with GWill, DJJ, Hardy and Exum is a very solid bench for years to come.  OMax is a bet.  None of us know if that bet will pay off (Free Roddy B).  2027 is painful.  I get it.  I'd love an unprotected swap so at least we'd have a pick.  Maybe that can happen.  But we can fill two holes at once if we do something like this.  I guess I like the outcome.  I've never been a huge Kuzma fan myself.  But, the end result makes sense to me.

[ItsGoTime]

Michael Kidd-Gilcrest had lots of the same things OMax has. I want the 21 yo kid to succeed, but at this point I’m hoping he doesn’t get moved to the g-league next season and stays with the team all year.

[mvossman]

If 11 teams have 75% of the available picks, doesn't that mean those 11 teams are well positioned to outbid us for anything worth having?

Chicago is right.  When is the last time a deal was announced and we all sat around and said...'man, that was cheap'.  'I can't believe it only cost....'.   That never happens.  We can be staunchly opposed to this or that, but we need to be somewhat realistic.  We overvalue our stuff compared to reality.

We can talk about two seconds and this/that if we want.  To me, it feels so unrealistic that I don't see the point.  We know the price tag is higher than that and if that is the stand we take then what we are staunchly opposed to is completing a deal.  

Kuzma with Lively, Luka, Green and Kyrie solves our starting five for years to come.  Gafford with GWill, DJJ, Hardy and Exum is a very solid bench for years to come.  OMax is a bet.  None of us know if that bet will pay off (Free Roddy B).  2027 is painful.  I get it.  I'd love an unprotected swap so at least we'd have a pick.  Maybe that can happen.  But we can fill two holes at once if we do something like this.  I guess I like the outcome.  I've never been a huge Kuzma fan myself.  But, the end result makes sense to me.

I have seen trades that I would more than happy to have done if we had the assets including OG and Siakam.

I think our biggest disagreement is that I don't see Lively/Kuz/Luka/Green/Kyrie as a contender starting lineup.  That group will have a hard time being even average on defense.  I think we are going to find ourselves needing to upgrade that lineup to seriously contend, and I think a first will be more useful to acquire that upgrade than Kuz contract will be.