Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[KillerLeft]

But, to what end.  Outside of peak Draymond, I'm not sure anyone here changes things for 23/24.  That's why I'm more interested in younger guys like WCJ, P Williams, Avdija and Kuminga.  The salaries and age of those guys makes much more sense to me than the usual suspect.  They aren't the final piece for 23/24 either, but they could be an important piece for the seasons beyond this.

I think the reduction in Miami's IMMEDIATE payroll (I read somewhere on twitter that it got them out of 2nd apron danger) was a significant part of the motivation and cost of the deal.

But, I totally agree with the paragraph above. The younger the better for the Mavs right now, imo. Or, no deal at all.

[omahen]

That's why I'm more interested in younger guys like WCJ, P Williams, Avdija and Kuminga.  The salaries and age of those guys makes much more sense to me than the usual suspect.  They aren't the final piece for 23/24 either, but they could be an important piece for the seasons beyond this.

The risk of this approach is, that the guys stays exactly as they are. As they are, they are not a difference maker and will not be. Because they are young, you are paying extra for the potential preventing you to have the asset for a (far) more established difference maker. That is why I am not a fan of this kind of moves. Outside of Kuminga, all the rest have been in the league long enough for us to pretty much know what they are and will be in the future. I rather wait for the right guy than split assets in a couple of tries hoping someone will be significantly different with us than he was so far.

[KillerLeft]

The risk of this approach is, that the guys stays exactly as they are. As they are, they are not a difference maker and will not be. Because they are young, you are paying extra for the potential preventing you to have the asset for a (far) more established difference maker. That is why I am not a fan of this kind of moves. Outside of Kuminga, all the rest have been in the league long enough for us to pretty much know what they are and will be in the future. I rather wait for the right guy than split assets in a couple of tries hoping someone will be significantly different with us than he was so far.

Sure, but...if "exactly as they are" is an upgrade here, and maybe even a better fit here so that what they are looks a little more at home and therefore shines a bit more, then one of those guys might be a better asset than what you're giving up, in theory. 

I agree with your concern, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't do a lot of deals we talk about for exactly that reason. But, I think there are some moves that you might label "non-difference-making" that could make a difference down the road.

[omahen]

Another thing to consider - there are far more score-first SG available than there are big wings. On the other hand, a lot of teams are looking for those big wings type and only some need score first SG. That is why it is logical, the price for a PF will likely be considerably higher than price for a score first SG.

[omahen]

Sure, but...if "exactly as they are" is an upgrade here, and maybe even a better fit here so that what they are looks a little more at home and therefore shines a bit more, then one of those guys might be a better asset than what you're giving up, in theory. 

I agree with your concern, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't do a lot of deals we talk about for exactly that reason. But, I think there are some moves that you might label "non-difference-making" that could make a difference down the road.

Basically my bottom line is - don't spend 2027 on any of those guys. I don't mind if we can get them for less, but I am far from convinced that is possible. While we tend to be optimistic and look for best case scenario, there is unfortunately always an option that he turns into GW. Just look what a difference six months make. Everyone was exstatic about the GW trade when it happened, now most would throw him in just about any deal available.

Personally I rather value player for what he is, unless there is a clear trend of improving over the years. Or if his underperforming could be explained just as an outlier due to some circumstances that might change (basically short term thing impacting current numbers)

[KillerLeft]

Basically my bottom line is - don't spend 2027 on any of those guys.

Right there with you. 

Fortunately, I'm reasonably sure the Mavs agree, or else I think we'd have seen that pick fly out over the summer.

[omahen]

Right there with you. 

Fortunately, I'm reasonably sure the Mavs agree, or else I think we'd have seen that pick fly out over the summer.

For the record. I would spend 2027 for Grant. While he is not perfect, he is miles better for a third best guy than any other player we have. Not sure we can get anyone better in the summer anyway. I would be exstatic about Luka-Kyrie-Grant trio with the rest of the supporting cast we have. My expectation would be at least 55 win season (unless of course injuries) - next season of course. 

I don't have a strong opinion about Kuzma. Didn't watch him much and nationwide opinion about him is diversified a lot. Some like him, some not. While I am not pushing for this deal, I would accept it positively, if Mavs decide to do it. My position is similar about Harris.

I don't want Wiggins or Draymond. Rest of the guys only, if 2027 is not involved.

[SleepingHero]

NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral)
Atlanta Hawks’ asking price for Dejounte Murray:

First-round pick
First-round pick
Starting-level player

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NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral)
The Milwaukee Bucks are reportedly seeking to trade a package that includes Pat Connaughton and Cameron Payne in an effort to upgrade their roster, per @JakeLFischer

[Winter]

The risk of this approach is, that the guys stays exactly as they are. As they are, they are not a difference maker and will not be. Because they are young, you are paying extra for the potential preventing you to have the asset for a (far) more established difference maker. That is why I am not a fan of this kind of moves. Outside of Kuminga, all the rest have been in the league long enough for us to pretty much know what they are and will be in the future. I rather wait for the right guy than split assets in a couple of tries hoping someone will be significantly different with us than he was so far.

I think "waiting for the right guy" in free agency is fool's gold. You're looking for a profile. You're looking for a player who has skills your team is lacking. And more importantly, you're looking for a player you can actually afford and who will sign with your team. Several very good players will likely be available in free agency, and the Mavericks have been historically bad at signing them.

The object is to improve the team, no? Good teams are built over time. Doing nothing when there is a clear need, is almost as big a risk - particularly for the current players who are well aware of what they need. If the Front Office tells me (a fan) after the trade deadline, they are "waiting for the right player," then I would say they were negligent.

[omahen]

Mike Scotto reports Mavs still have interest in Bruce Brown. For me same principle as I said before - I am ok if we can get him without 2027 pick. Doubt we can, though.

[SleepingHero]

Was in the lab and cooked a bit.

How unrealistic is this.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

For the record. I would spend 2027 for Grant. While he is not perfect, he is miles better for a third best guy than any other player we have.

Jerami Grant is a poor rebounder.
Mavs would still bleed for rebounds with him, but... 

I would be okay giving up 2027 FRP IF:
GW and Holmes are packaged with the FRP.

But I'd try this first:
GW+Holmes+Hardy+2 2nds

I may be convinced to throw in THJ instead of GW or Holmes, but including THJ in the deal would make me pull-out the FRP (and I don't even like THJ).

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

I'd throw a first for Deni+Gafford.
Neither would be paying too much, but combined, they're worth a FRP.
Specially if you can include Holmes+GW.
The limit form me is THJ+Hardy+FRP

I like Kuzma but, Deni's going to be good.

[omahen]

Jerami Grant is a poor rebounder.
Mavs would still bleed for rebounds with him, but... 

I would be okay giving up 2027 FRP IF:
GW and Holmes are packaged with the FRP.

But I'd try this first:
GW+Holmes+Hardy+2 2nds

I may be convinced to throw in THJ instead of GW or Holmes, but including THJ in the deal would make me pull-out the FRP (and I don't even like THJ).

I think THJ needs to go for such a player, otherwise there are just not enough shots for everyone. Greens passivenes would fit far more nicely next to the "big three". Exum can also contribute without scoring and step up when one of the "big three" is out. 

I am not that sure about Avdija. He improved as a shooter but is still below average on not a lot of attempts. Decent defender but not elite. Both Gafford and him are just another two role players, while Mavs need 3rd and 4th best player. I just don't see that in Avdija, so I wouldn't give up 27 in a trade for him and Gafford, although I agree their combined worth is at that level. But I think Mavs need to aim higher.

[mvossman]

I think "waiting for the right guy" in free agency is fool's gold. You're looking for a profile. You're looking for a player who has skills your team is lacking. And more importantly, you're looking for a player you can actually afford and who will sign with your team. Several very good players will likely be available in free agency, and the Mavericks have been historically bad at signing them.

The object is to improve the team, no? Good teams are built over time. Doing nothing when there is a clear need, is almost as big a risk - particularly for the current players who are well aware of what they need. If the Front Office tells me (a fan) after the trade deadline, they are "waiting for the right player," then I would say they were negligent.

I'm confused.  Who is talking about free agency?  At most we will have the MLE next offseason.  Any significant move this team makes in the next year and a half will almost definitely be a trade.  Other than that its just semantics.  What you describe is what someone else would call waiting for the right guy.  Its a spectrum.  You don't want to wait for perfect, but you also don't want to pull the trigger just to pull the trigger.

As far as that player we need, we desperately need two way players.  Do we have one on this team?  Maybe Exum?  Its almost impossible to contend without two way players.  Otherwise you are constantly trading out offense for defense and you can't ever be good at both.  Two way players are expensive.  We likely don't have the assets at the TDL to get one.  We will next offseason.  That should be the goal.  Doing anything this TDL that hampers that goal is likely a mistake.

[mvossman]

I'd throw a first for Deni+Gafford.
Neither would be paying too much, but combined, they're worth a FRP.
Specially if you can include Holmes+GW.
The limit form me is THJ+Hardy+FRP

I like Kuzma but, Deni's going to be good.

If we are going to send out that first for role players (and I am generally on Omahen's bus when it comes to that) this would make some sense.  I like it a lot better than Kuz.  Not sure why the Wiz would be sending out a good young player though?  Is there any hint Deni is on the block?

[Winter]

I'm confused.  Who is talking about free agency?  At most we will have the MLE next offseason.  Any significant move this team makes in the next year and a half will almost definitely be a trade.  Other than that its just semantics.  What you describe is what someone else would call waiting for the right guy.  Its a spectrum.  You don't want to wait for perfect, but you also don't want to pull the trigger just to pull the trigger.

As far as that player we need, we desperately need two way players.  Do we have one on this team?  Maybe Exum?  Its almost impossible to contend without two way players.  Otherwise you are constantly trading out offense for defense and you can't ever be good at both.  Two way players are expensive.  We likely don't have the assets at the TDL to get one.  We will next offseason.  That should be the goal.  Doing anything this TDL that hampers that goal is likely a mistake.

Yes, you're confused. I'm merely replying to "wait to for the right player" comment of the poster before me - which is largely a generalization that includes trades and free agency. 

The idea of upgrading your roster is several things combined - including salary and cap considerations. But not doing anything (because you think you can do better later) also comes at a cost. I don't feel that it is adequately factored in. 

Obviously no one wants to make poor decisions, but I have to think the front office understands "waiting" is also a gamble if there are opportunities to upgrade.

[KillerLeft]

Yes, you're confused. I'm merely replying to "wait to for the right player" comment of the poster before me - which is largely a generalization that includes trades and free agency. 

I'm with Mvossman. I think you missed the initial meaning somewhat. I think the first point was about not pissing assets away so that they could be kept handy for use in the right TRADE. I don't think anyone brought free agency into this until you did. Free Agency really isn't going to be an available avenue for this iteration of the Mavericks now that Luka is on his supermax.

[Winter]

Yeah, I didn't see it that way. In my mind it made no difference either way. You're "waiting for the right player" regardless. We can pretend I never mentioned FA and I'm just fine with that. ?

[SleepingHero]

I'd throw a first for Deni+Gafford.
Neither would be paying too much, but combined, they're worth a FRP.
Specially if you can include Holmes+GW.
The limit form me is THJ+Hardy+FRP

I like Kuzma but, Deni's going to be good.

I'm pretty much all in on the idea of saving the first this year so in the summer we can go to war with 3 firsts as a package for a star.


Any incremental changes right now I don't think are worth a singular first. I like Deni. I like Gafford. I don't think either of them individually are worth a first, and certainly combined they aren't worth that imo.