ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[Smitty]

Giving up two starters for one isnt ideal to me. 

Wood isn't a starter.

[Kammrath]

A Wood+Bullock trade for Collins is starting to make a lot of sense

HAVE to do something like this if Kidd is not going to play Wood as a the second best player. HAVE TO. Or the Mavs roster is absolutely doomed. 

The Wood trade was the ONE (!) good thing this off season and now that has become a trash move as the Mavs gave up a 1st round pick for a bench player who barely plays 20 mins a game. Absolute fail.

[dynamicalVoid]

Wood isn't a starter.

Yeah...I dont want to argue semantics or hypotheticals or whatever you want to call it...

Wood does what Collins does plus we would keep Bullock for depth.  This is based on the Wood/Bullock for Collins talk.  And I get that Wood is up for a new contract.

I just dont think Collins moves the needle.

[Smitty]

Yeah...I dont want to argue semantics or hypotheticals or whatever you want to call it...

Wood does what Collins does plus we would keep Bullock for depth.  This is based on the Wood/Bullock for Collins talk.  And I get that Wood is up for a new contract.

I just dont think Collins moves the needle.

Well, it's not semantics. He gets treated as a bench scorer. Not a starter or close to it. Collins would get treated as such. Which is why I'd do the trade. 

I actually think Wood is better than Collins but it's painfully obvious whatever talent advantage Wood has on others, he lacks "other" things that coaches and teams around the league can't get over.

[dynamicalVoid]

Well, it's not semantics. He gets treated as a bench scorer. Not a starter or close to it. Collins would get treated as such. Which is why I'd do the trade. 

I actually think Wood is better than Collins but it's painfully obvious whatever talent advantage Wood has on others, he lacks "other" things that coaches and teams around the league can't get over.

Yeah...I agree with you here.  Dude must be very immature off the court, at practice or a bad influence somehow.

But I still think there is an element of tolerating someone like that if your team lacks talent and the player is not a criminal.

And...it was known about his character and we gave a FRP.

[Smitty]

Yeah...I agree with you here.  Dude must be very immature off the court, at practice or a bad influence somehow.

But I still think there is an element of tolerating someone like that if your team lacks talent and the player is not a criminal.

And...it was known about his character and we gave a FRP.

I agree man. This is a very frustrating season for me as a Mavs fan. This Wood things makes the Brunson thing sting even more. I hate that we're going down the path of wasting a MVP Luka year...

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Play the game with me. Give me any team and let's see if I would take four of their starters over the Mavs.

Rockets?

[DanSchwartzgan]

A Wood+Bullock trade for Collins is starting to make a lot of sense.

Kidd will never play Wood 30+ minutes or start him and I think Collins would start here and play 30+ the day he gets traded. Bullock is playing poor now, and will likely get better as he usually does. But I now consider him a progress stopper for Green. I want Green getting the Reggie treatment (~30 minutes of play time regardless of your effectiveness on the offensive end that night).  

Exactly.  We have 11 players who deserve minutes when everyone is healthy.  It is likely the team improves by replacing Reggie with Green.  Some amount of consolidation would be a good thing.

[Mikelorenzo]

I like Collins, (Wood too) but he has the same defect as Wood and KP... his defense is suspect, (I want to think that this is the justification for the lack of CW minutes). So while Kidd is here I think it would be better Chase guys who fit what the coach wants to play. I like Turner a local guy from Dallas who has the perfect skill set but continually struggles to stay healthy and we already know how frustrating and damaging to chemistry it is to have a key player continually slipping in and out of the rotation... Changing the subject, what do you think of Quin Snyder?

[vfromlmf]

It is likely the team improves by replacing Reggie with Green. 

It is likely the team improves by replacing Reggie with Green in November and December but as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, I'd have a real hard time replacing a guy that needed to be on the floor nearly 40 MPG during last year's run to the WCF, with a guy who was a DNP-CD and outplayed by Frank Ntilikina, if it means trading Bullock. 

Reggie is limited, for sure, but he's a winning player, a good defender and a proven playoff performer. 

Green has shown flashes for sure. But he's still developing and it was only about a week ago that I noticed Luka barking at him to "take the f'ing shot" as the two of them walked off the floor. He's also still fouling too much. I just don't think he's ready to play a critical role on a win-now team and I'd certainly rather see Bullock in the corner than Green with a playoff game on the line.

Of course, maybe increased playing time and success (like last game) helps Green turn the corner faster. That would be a win -- but patience might be the better approach. Let Green have a few more big nights off the bench and see how he responds. If he forces Bullock to the bench, that's a good thing. Depth is good. Then you have three BANG BROS instead of just two.

In context of the proposed Bullock + Wood deal for Collins I see this as dealing two good rotation players, who might combine for 50-70 playoff minutes, for a single guy, who's not a clear upgrade over Wood alone, and might only play 30-35 MPG in the playoffs. I just don't see any sense in doing that unless there's something going on behind the scenes we're not aware of.

[dynamicalVoid]

I will say that when Collins was the hot talk around here a year ago...I watched a few of his games because everyone was speculating on if his defense was good enough or not...

The few games I watched he seemed to be engaged and very vigilant on defense.  Now...I dont know if he was making the correct rotations or not...but he didnt seem to be a traffic cone.  Im just a casual who watched Collins specifically for good minutes in about 3 games last year...so take that into account.

I would still be reluctant to give up Wood and Bullock for a possible non-needle mover.  Especially a player that is known to not be able to create his own shot.   How well does he pass...because Wood is crispy passing wise.  Wood and Collins probably rebound about the same.

[Smitty]

In context of the proposed Bullock + Wood deal for Collins I see this as dealing two good rotation players, who might combine for 50-70 playoff minutes, for a single guy, who's not a clear upgrade over Wood alone, and might only play 30-35 MPG in the playoffs. I just don't see any sense in doing that unless there's something going on behind the scenes we're not aware of.

I'm not sure anyone wants to trade Wood. We want him to play 30+minutes. Since there is clearly something behind the scenes causing him to play 20 minutes or less - I'd rather trade for a player with equal talent that will be treated like an important piece moving forward.

As for Bullock... the writing is on the wall and I personally prefer the younger Green.

[dynamicalVoid]

I am in the Pro-Josh Green camp...but I do believe there might be something to him not being playoff playable for heavy minutes.  My opinion...but I feel like he has gotten called for some non-fouls this year that was actually good defense...but I think he might get baited into foul trouble in playoffs.  We would need depth if that were to happen.

[Mavsfan12]

I will say that when Collins was the hot talk around here a year ago...I watched a few of his games because everyone was speculating on if his defense was good enough or not...

The few games I watched he seemed to be engaged and very vigilant on defense.  Now...I dont know if he was making the correct rotations or not...but he didnt seem to be a traffic cone.  Im just a casual who watched Collins specifically for good minutes in about 3 games last year...so take that into account.

I would still be reluctant to give up Wood and Bullock for a possible non-needle mover.  Especially a player that is known to not be able to create his own shot.   How well does he pass...because Wood is crispy passing wise.  Wood and Collins probably rebound about the same.

I just stopped by to chime in on this proposed trade for Collins.  Over the last few seasons, I have been as pro-Collins as anyone here, and even I wouldn't do that deal.  When we got Wood, my desire to get Collins was basically quenched.  I actually like wood for this team the way both are playing this year.  It is the biggest mystery to me as to why he is not getting a full complement of minutes, but he is exactly what I hoped he would be (or that collins would be here).  The Mavs' biggest issue this year has been bad shooting from 3.  Wood is your best 3pt shooter.  Why would you even consider trading him?  He is your best from 3 and your best interior threat (besides Luka), AND resolves weaknesses in rebounding and shot creation.  Literally fills all the holes on this team.  Baffles me why he wouldn't be getting all the minutes his knee could handle and CERTAINLY wouldn't be on the block.  Bullock/DFS/THJ (and yes, Luka), need to shoot better from 3.  If they were shooting at reasonable levels, this team would be far and away improved.  But they are shooting a collective around 30% between them, while taking most of the shots.  Only SD/Wood (and at lower volume Green) have shown up this season with a 3pt shot in their bag.

I am down for adding someone like Hayward for this reason.  But not for Wood.  I want Wood long term - a perfect fit for this roster!  If they want him off the bench, fine, just give him full minutes and let his high net avg shine.  I would love to see a trade for Hayward/Washington and even throw in Rozier's deal if it gets the deal done.  This team needs an influx of talent and playmaking or we are just wasting Luka's MVP performance.  If CHA wants to tank and offload some salary (short term AND long term), this is a good way to make it happen.  Rozier's deal is a year longer than THJ's and all the rest we would be giving could be <2 years with Powell/bullock and small filler.  Rozier is being asked to do too much and would be much more efficient in a reduced role where he did a bit more spot up shooting with another playmaker on the floor.  Definitely has JET Terry potential and would solidly fill the playmaking hole that losing Brunson left behind.

Luka/SD/Rozier as the ballhandler rotation
DFS/Hayward/Washington/Green on the wing
Wood/Kleber/McGee/Bertans are your bigs.  

I think that improves the team a lot and gives a bit of ammo to make the big trade when we have our picks.  I also think that gives the Mavs a lot of versatility to go small/big depending on matchups.  This is what moving the needle looks like.

Anyway, I am firmly in the "keep Wood" camp.

[dynamicalVoid]

Its hard to distinguish which of our heavy minute scrub offensive players are worth retaining for our Playoff offensive scheme to be effective.  We seem to have 3 heavy minute players that are not ideal(THJ, Bullock, Powell) and 3 that are somewhat ok(DFS, SD, Maxi).

A casuals personal opinion with little knowledge of whats needed for our Playoff offense to excel is...I would try and split up the two groups("not ideal" and "somewhat") and mix and match and look for 2 for 1 trades...or any trade quite frankly.  

Example:  

DFS(somewhat) + Powell(not ideal) = new player

Maxi(somewhat) + THJ(not ideal) = new player

SD(somewhat) + Bullock(not ideal) = new player (SD trade has to return a ballhandler or there has to be another trade lined up for a ballhandler if SD is moved)

Im ready to move any player not named Luka, Josh or Christian if we can get back a players that have better offensive fundamentals and are serviceable on defense.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

Trade Idea:

Mavs get Devonte Graham+Theis
Pacers get THJ+Mavs 2nd rounder
Pels get McConnel

Mavs get a ballhandler who can shoot, career 36% from 3 and 45% this season so far. Theis recently has surgery and isn't playing, will take time for him to be back thus avoiding a log-jam at C early on, and when Theis does come back (and the Mavs make the playoffs), he's a big who can shoot and will have more value than both DP and McGee in the play-offs (McGee can be traded on January 15, but Theis probably still isn't available by then). Graham is an underwhelming choice, but on this Mavs team, he automatically becomes the 3rd best ballhandler (who can shoot). It's reasonable to expect his scoring average to go up from his current 6 points per game.

For the Pacers, yes the Pacers have Heid, but if they have any plans on tanking, Heid and Turner should be on the way out. THJ should be a good a tank commander as any. Now if the Pacers do plan on competing, RC probably is that one coach who can make use of THJ and make him a better player. Either way, McConnel is already the team's third string PG and Theis isn't going to play anytime soon. THJ and the second round pick from the Mavs might have more value than both McConnel and Theis in the long run. 

For the Pelicans, McConnel averages one point less than Graham in roughly the same minutes. Both are third string PGs on their respected teams with Graham getting some burn at SG. McConnel's advantage over Graham is that he is more of a pure point guard. New Orlean's best passers are Zion, Ingram and CJ, none of which of course, are PGs. The young PGs in NO are more like combo guards who for the moment, are all mediocre passers. McConnel would be the best passing PG on the team. And of course, McConnel is 9M cheaper over 3 years compared with Graham's.

[mvossman]

Trade Idea:

Mavs get Devonte Graham+Theis
Pacers get THJ+Mavs 2nd rounder
Pels get McConnel

Mavs get a ballhandler who can shoot, career 36% from 3 and 45% this season so far. Theis recently has surgery and isn't playing, will take time for him to be back thus avoiding a log-jam at C early on, and when Theis does come back (and the Mavs make the playoffs), he's a big who can shoot and will have more value than both DP and McGee in the play-offs (McGee can be traded on January 15, but Theis probably still isn't available by then). Graham is an underwhelming choice, but on this Mavs team, he automatically becomes the 3rd best ballhandler (who can shoot). It's reasonable to expect his scoring average to go up from his current 6 points per game.

For the Pacers, yes the Pacers have Heid, but if they have any plans on tanking, Heid and Turner should be on the way out. THJ should be a good a tank commander as any. Now if the Pacers do plan on competing, RC probably is that one coach who can make use of THJ and make him a better player. Either way, McConnel is already the team's third string PG and Theis isn't going to play anytime soon. THJ and the second round pick from the Mavs might have more value than both McConnel and Theis in the long run. 

For the Pelicans, McConnel averages one point less than Graham in roughly the same minutes. Both are third string PGs on their respected teams with Graham getting some burn at SG. McConnel's advantage over Graham is that he is more of a pure point guard. New Orlean's best passers are Zion, Ingram and CJ, none of which of course, are PGs. The young PGs in NO are more like combo guards who for the moment, are all mediocre passers. McConnel would be the best passing PG on the team. And of course, McConnel is 9M cheaper over 3 years compared with Graham's.

I doubt the Pacers do this, but I would totally good with it if they do.  I don't love Graham's game, but I like it better than Timmy's.

[mvossman]

I just stopped by to chime in on this proposed trade for Collins.  Over the last few seasons, I have been as pro-Collins as anyone here, and even I wouldn't do that deal.  When we got Wood, my desire to get Collins was basically quenched.  I actually like wood for this team the way both are playing this year.  It is the biggest mystery to me as to why he is not getting a full complement of minutes, but he is exactly what I hoped he would be (or that collins would be here).  The Mavs' biggest issue this year has been bad shooting from 3.  Wood is your best 3pt shooter.  Why would you even consider trading him?  He is your best from 3 and your best interior threat (besides Luka), AND resolves weaknesses in rebounding and shot creation.  Literally fills all the holes on this team.  Baffles me why he wouldn't be getting all the minutes his knee could handle and CERTAINLY wouldn't be on the block.  Bullock/DFS/THJ (and yes, Luka), need to shoot better from 3.  If they were shooting at reasonable levels, this team would be far and away improved.  But they are shooting a collective around 30% between them, while taking most of the shots.  Only SD/Wood (and at lower volume Green) have shown up this season with a 3pt shot in their bag.

I am down for adding someone like Hayward for this reason.  But not for Wood.  I want Wood long term - a perfect fit for this roster!  If they want him off the bench, fine, just give him full minutes and let his high net avg shine.  I would love to see a trade for Hayward/Washington and even throw in Rozier's deal if it gets the deal done.  This team needs an influx of talent and playmaking or we are just wasting Luka's MVP performance.  If CHA wants to tank and offload some salary (short term AND long term), this is a good way to make it happen.  Rozier's deal is a year longer than THJ's and all the rest we would be giving could be <2 years with Powell/bullock and small filler.  Rozier is being asked to do too much and would be much more efficient in a reduced role where he did a bit more spot up shooting with another playmaker on the floor.  Definitely has JET Terry potential and would solidly fill the playmaking hole that losing Brunson left behind.

Luka/SD/Rozier as the ballhandler rotation
DFS/Hayward/Washington/Green on the wing
Wood/Kleber/McGee/Bertans are your bigs.  

I think that improves the team a lot and gives a bit of ammo to make the big trade when we have our picks.  I also think that gives the Mavs a lot of versatility to go small/big depending on matchups.  This is what moving the needle looks like.

Anyway, I am firmly in the "keep Wood" camp.

I have a hard time seeing us land Hayward/PJ/Rozier for Timmy/Powell/Bullock.  They may save some money, but those are better players than what we have.  I realize the idea is that they are shaving long term cost, but I am guessing they can get better offers than that.

[Mavsfan12]

I have a hard time seeing us land Hayward/PJ/Rozier for Timmy/Powell/Bullock.  They may save some money, but those are better players than what we have.  I realize the idea is that they are shaving long term cost, but I am guessing they can get better offers than that.

Yeah, this is the classic salary dump to tank.  They are off to a horrendous start and their best player is dealing with legal issues this year.  They are not going to contend and I absolutely see them clearing the deck to tank for the #1 pick as a team that isn't going anywhere fast as constructed.  Those guys just happen to fit in really well with what we have going, with THJ/Bullock slotting in well once Melo/Bridges are back up and running.  Add Wembanyama to that mix and that is an instant rebuild with room to add a big contract.  It has some merit - but only if they want to salary dump and if Cuban would take on the salary commitment.  Let's be real, that is more in doubt than CHA dumping players.  Ultimately, the Mavs are never going to be true contenders under financial restraint.  Luka is amazing, but without him, we just lost to freaking Houston.  So...

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I am in the Pro-Josh Green camp...but I do believe there might be something to him not being playoff playable for heavy minutes.  My opinion...but I feel like he has gotten called for some non-fouls this year that was actually good defense...but I think he might get baited into foul trouble in playoffs.  We would need depth if that were to happen.

That comes with earning a reputation as a good defender from the refs. If he keeps improving, he'll get his fair share of whistles.