ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[cow]

It's so blatant that the league is going to look into the situation without the need of a grievance filed by the Mavs.

[Scott41theMavs]

It's so blatant that the league is going to look into the situation without the need of a grievance filed by the Mavs.

True, but I'm sure that how hard they press the issue is going to have an effect on the investigation and resulting penalty.

[Winter]

True, but I'm sure that how hard they press the issue is going to have an effect on the investigation and resulting penalty.

I think the NBA has a mind of its own on this subject. They definitely do not want to give the impression that this is OK. Anything resembling a true tamper violation would have to be punished.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Can't wait to convince myself that Jaden Hardy is the next Jordan Poole after he goes for 15 points tomorrow on 6 of 22 shooting.

[cow]

True, but I'm sure that how hard they press the issue is going to have an effect on the investigation and resulting penalty.

The penalties are always insignificant even the rules allow for much heftier fines. 

While I think the tampering rules should just be abolished, if you want to make a punishment sting and be meaningful, transfer a future FRP or more from the tampering team to the team being tampered against.

[Mavsfan12]

The penalties are always insignificant even the rules allow for much heftier fines. 

While I think the tampering rules should just be abolished, if you want to make a punishment sting and be meaningful, transfer a future FRP or more from the tampering team to the team being tampered against.

I actually think that the penalty for tampering is that you simply can't sign the player.  Period.  The contract is voided.  That would end it on all sides.  There is precedent for this when the Twolves circumvented the salary rules with Joe Smith.  They lost multiple picks, but I think they also had the contract voided.  If the punishment was like this, it would change this issue. FAST.  

That said, I think that once a team has been eliminated for the season, teams should be able to contact FA's and agents.  There isn't a good reason to wait for 2 months to settle your future.

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/2000/1102/...d%20rights.

[SleepingHero]

There is no reality where the Knicks get the JB contract voided. How can they actually prove they tampered? Can't police father-son talks. 

Now was there a conflict of interest given that JB's former agent is the head honcho at the Knicks, his current agent is the son of said GM, AND his dad was hired by that franchise...? 

I mean that's as obvious as it gets. But there's no way the NBA will set the precedent that just having close relations to the player before they were on your team opens up the chance for a contract to be voided. 

Unless they find some emails/texts between Rose and Brunson this is a nothingburger.

[phiL]

The rule is stupid and completely outdated. I'd guess almost every important free agent deal is discussed way before the deadline.

[Mavs2021]

The rule is stupid and completely outdated. I'd guess almost every important free agent deal is discussed way before the deadline.

At this point the draft takes longer than free agency. We had all the Brunson drama before official free agency began. Imagine how boring it was for all the fans of the other teams. If I`m not mistaken Malik Monk at $9.5M is the 2nd highest team changer and people say Knicks and Kings can´t attract free agents.

[Chicagojk]

I saw this article.  Checking out Knicks forums they are really high on their cap guy and they are expecting something from Dallas in order to make this a sign and trade.   I would hope not.

Although it would be classic Mavs to use a pick to get a TPE and then not use the TPE.

https://www.sny.tv/articles/breaking-dow...en-brunson

[DanSchwartzgan]

I saw this article.  Checking out Knicks forums they are really high on their cap guy and they are expecting something from Dallas in order to make this a sign and trade.   I would hope not.

Although it would be classic Mavs to use a pick to get a TPE and then not use the TPE.

https://www.sny.tv/articles/breaking-dow...en-brunson

We've talked pretty extensively about the potential benefits for Dallas.  The article outlines the NY side pretty well.  I did think it odd the way he talked about Brunson and Hartenstein using up their cap room and then signing Sims into space (he did it twice).  I can only assume he meant the cap room created by dropping Gibson.  Waiting until now to waive Gibson would be a crappy thing to do to one of TT's loyal soldiers.  I think the Sims signing will use part of an exception like we did with Hardy.  

That doesn't eliminate any of the versions as all have some exception to do that with.  Having access to the bi-annual or the Walker TPE is nice, but from NY's perspective, this is probably more about big game hunting.  I don't think Dallas will have to pay for its TPE (do we even have a 2nd rounder before 2030?).  If we do have to pay, it might be removing the restrictions on the 2023 pick.  That actually helps both teams.

I don't know that Detroit has to be compensated either.  These possibilities could have been anticipated in the original deal negotiations and holding the deal open may have been a stipulation.  Detroit might benefit from this also.  They still have over $8mm in cap room left.  They could send out Noel or Burks for $9mm or $10mm and bring back someone making $17mm or $18mm.  Its not like Noel and Burks are worthless and that $8mm spread might be helpful in completing a bigger deal for NY, Dallas or a 4th team that needs to send out salary in that neighborhood.  We've talked a lot about how all this might work, but here are some of those versions again:

1.  We just get a TPE for later use
2.  We take back one of the players going to Detroit inside the Brunson $12mm outgoing
3.  We leverage the 125% rule by taking back a player making up to about $15.25mm back from NY, Detroit or a third team
4.  We add Powell or Green or THJ to the Brunson outgoing and leverage the 125% rule to a bigger salaried player(s).  Maybe a guy from Brooklyn?
5.  We use the Detroit cap room for our own purposes by sending them more salary than they send back by the amount of the $8.4mm in room or less.  This is the idea behind THJ for Burks/Lee and it puts us right on top of the Apron.  It wouldn't be hard to end up below the apron on a subsequent trade.

[mvossman]

We've talked pretty extensively about the potential benefits for Dallas.  The article outlines the NY side pretty well.  I did think it odd the way he talked about Brunson and Hartenstein using up their cap room and then signing Sims into space (he did it twice).  I can only assume he meant the cap room created by dropping Gibson.  Waiting until now to waive Gibson would be a crappy thing to do to one of TT's loyal soldiers.  I think the Sims signing will use part of an exception like we did with Hardy.  

That doesn't eliminate any of the versions as all have some exception to do that with.  Having access to the bi-annual or the Walker TPE is nice, but from NY's perspective, this is probably more about big game hunting.  I don't think Dallas will have to pay for its TPE (do we even have a 2nd rounder before 2030?).  If we do have to pay, it might be removing the restrictions on the 2023 pick.  That actually helps both teams.

I don't know that Detroit has to be compensated either.  These possibilities could have been anticipated in the original deal negotiations and holding the deal open may have been a stipulation.  Detroit might benefit from this also.  They still have over $8mm in cap room left.  They could send out Noel or Burks for $9mm or $10mm and bring back someone making $17mm or $18mm.  Its not like Noel and Burks are worthless and that $8mm spread might be helpful in completing a bigger deal for NY, Dallas or a 4th team that needs to send out salary in that neighborhood.  We've talked a lot about how all this might work, but here are some of those versions again:

1.  We just get a TPE for later use
2.  We take back one of the players going to Detroit inside the Brunson $12mm outgoing
3.  We leverage the 125% rule by taking back a player making up to about $15.25mm back from NY, Detroit or a third team
4.  We add Powell or Green or THJ to the Brunson outgoing and leverage the 125% rule to a bigger salaried player(s).  Maybe a guy from Brooklyn?
5.  We use the Detroit cap room for our own purposes by sending them more salary than they send back by the amount of the $8.4mm in room or less.  This is the idea behind THJ for Burks/Lee and it puts us right on top of the Apron.  It wouldn't be hard to end up below the apron on a subsequent trade.

I'm guessing our best case scenario is we get a TPE we don't use or Burks.  Not much to get excited about and does not address our playmaking hole.  How long can this trade drag on for?

[Kammrath]

How long can this trade drag on for?

Could be weeks. There are just too many moving parts and options that are all watershed from Durant's situation.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

ChicagoJk, I wanted to piggyback on something you said in the Summer League thread about Zach Lowe on Houston’s future. I feel that way about OKC and NO as well. Part of what is so distressing about the Mavs (admittedly, and hopefully unfinished) offseason is the extent to which our immediate AND future competition has stocked up. By my reckoning, only Utah and SA didn’t improve out West this summer. GS, Denver, LAC, LAL all with better health(and Kyrie) and Phoenix if they trade for Durant all should see internal improvement. Portland gets Dame back and presumably better health in addition to what they added in Grant and GP II. Minny added Gobert and has two young stars. NO adds Zion and has a crap ton of picks and assets. Memphis is stocked with picks and cap flexibility. Even SAC added Murray, Huerter and Monk. OKC has the brightest future to me, though Houston has a good thing going too. OKC just has SO many picks that they can elbow in on any trade and maneuver the draft. I wonder how Cuban and Nico and the rest of the rebooted MBT see a way forward in the West. It seems like the championship windows for immediate comp in Pho, GS, LAL and LAC and let’s say Portland, should be closing in the next few years. Leaving Our Mavs, NO, Minny, Memphis, Denver as the “next wave”, with OKC and Houston looking to make noise around that time as up and comers. The West is back to being an absolute arms race again, with only the Celtics in the East looking to have a formidable near and longer term window, as Milwaukee and Miami and even Philly start to age out unless they pull off huge trades. I guess I just looked around the landscape and was reminded anew what a colossal screw up it was not to offer Brunson a larger deal. Maybe he goes to NYK anyway? Maybe we have something else great lined up? I think we are in the beginning of our window opening now, but don’t have time to dither as Luka’s current contract winds down. If Cuban wasn’t willing to be a legit tax paying team with a group that made the WCF, what could convince him to take that route in the near future? Desperation in the face of a more imminent threat of Luka’s departure? His own finances improving? A true second “star”? Some combination? I don’t think there is any way to compete in the West and be cheap, not with our current management model at least. Sorry to re-litigate all this, I just wonder what everyone figures the way forward is. If this is the first opening of our title window it seems to me we are off to a rough start as a franchise, until Nico and Mark prove otherwise. We get one shot with our full compliment of assets coming available after next season to get it right. Losing Brunson for nothing just made that even tougher in my estimation.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I'm guessing our best case scenario is we get a TPE we don't use or Burks.  Not much to get excited about and does not address our playmaking hole.  How long can this trade drag on for?

Burks is a good secondary creator.  He hits is threes, has good size and defends well.  In fact, a year ago most would have said he was the better Knick the prior season over Bullock.  It wouldn't shock me if he started here.  So, getting him wouldn't be nothing.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

There is no reality where the Knicks get the JB contract voided. How can they actually prove they tampered? Can't police father-son talks. 

Now was there a conflict of interest given that JB's former agent is the head honcho at the Knicks, his current agent is the son of said GM, AND his dad was hired by that franchise...? 

I mean that's as obvious as it gets. But there's no way the NBA will set the precedent that just having close relations to the player before they were on your team opens up the chance for a contract to be voided. 

Unless they find some emails/texts between Rose and Brunson this is a nothingburger.

I said the same thing in a previous post. How can you police something like this unless bugs were planted and wires were worn.  This gets swept under the rug, and move on.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

@Dan— I too like Burks and think he’s a useable player. He would give us another capable creator. He did just have foot surgery or is going to though and has been on and off injured for another of his career it seems. I guess it would also give us another medium sized expiring contract to move at the deadline. What would this cost Cuban in Luxury Tax if we don’t send out salary? I know if we sent Powell it’d be a wash. I hope Green isn’t used as a throw-in in any deal. Also, couldn’t removing the 2023 pick protection cut both ways: aren’t we a Luka season ender away from a likely top 10 pick?

[DanSchwartzgan]

If Cuban wasn’t willing to be a legit tax paying team with a group that made the WCF, what could convince him to take that route in the near future?

Look, I agree the front office deserves some criticism.  Hope isn’t a strategy and even I could see before the TDL that Brunson was a risk.

HOWEVER, this Cuban is cheap stuff is a bit unfair (not meaning to pick on you.  You just happened to be the one who wrote it when I had a moment to look at numbers).  First, we haven’t seen how things end.  But, if they just end right now we are at $164mm in salary ($15mm into the tax) with one roster spot still available.  The list of who is spending more is pretty small…LAC, GS, Milwaukee.  Boston and LAL are about the same as us but LAL will likely cut salary when they trade RB. Brooklyn is higher also, but like LAL will probably make trades that reduce salary.

So, the list of teams spending more is very likely 3-4 teams.  I’m not sure Brunson leaving is any indication of future plans to spend or not spend on the right deal.

[DanSchwartzgan]

@Dan— I too like Burks and think he’s a useable player. He would give us another capable creator. He did just have foot surgery or is going to though and has been on and off injured for another of his career it seems. I guess it would also give us another medium sized expiring contract to move at the deadline. What would this cost Cuban in Luxury Tax if we don’t send out salary? I know if we sent Powell it’d  be a wash. I hope Green isn’t used as a throw-in in any deal. Also, couldn’t removing the 2023 pick protection cut both ways: aren’t we a Luka season ender away from a likely top 10 pick?

Ideally, you don’t remove protection on the 23 pick until the TDL when you have a better feel for the risk.

I just talked about LT below.  I do think something would be outgoing, but if it wasn’t, the LT is probably over double the salary.  BTW, it would be the same if we used a Brunson TPE later in the season.  

As to the injury, we have plenty of guys who can get minutes early in the season as long as Burks can recover for the stretch run and playoffs.

Another thing about Burks is he’s TO in 23.  So, his usefulness as a trade chip could carry to next summer.

[Chicagojk]

ChicagoJk, I wanted to piggyback on something you said in the Summer League thread about Zach Lowe on Houston’s future. I feel that way about OKC and NO as well. Part of what is so distressing about the Mavs (admittedly, and hopefully unfinished) offseason is the extent to which our immediate  AND future competition has stocked up. By my reckoning, only Utah and SA didn’t improve out West this summer. GS, Denver, LAC, LAL all with better health(and Kyrie) and Phoenix if they trade for Durant all should see internal improvement. Portland gets Dame back and presumably better health in addition to what they added in Grant and GP II. Minny added Gobert and has two young stars. NO adds Zion and has a crap ton of picks and assets. Memphis is stocked with picks and cap flexibility. Even SAC added Murray, Huerter and Monk. OKC has the brightest future to me, though Houston has a good thing going too. OKC just has SO many picks that they can elbow in on any trade and maneuver the draft. I wonder how Cuban and Nico and the rest of the rebooted MBT see a way forward in the West. It seems like the championship windows for immediate comp in Pho, GS, LAL and LAC and let’s say Portland, should be closing in the next few years. Leaving Our Mavs, NO, Minny, Memphis, Denver as the “next wave”, with OKC and Houston looking to make noise around that time as up and comers. The West is back to being an absolute arms race again, with only the Celtics in the East looking to have a formidable near and longer term window, as Milwaukee and Miami and even Philly start to age out unless they pull off huge trades. I guess I just looked around the landscape and was reminded anew what a colossal screw up it was not to offer Brunson a larger deal. Maybe he goes to NYK anyway? Maybe we have something else great lined up? I think we are in the beginning of our window opening now, but don’t have time to dither as Luka’s current contract winds down. If Cuban wasn’t willing to be a legit tax paying team with a group that made the WCF, what could convince him to take that route in the near future? Desperation in the face of a more imminent threat of Luka’s departure? His own finances improving? A true second “star”? Some combination? I don’t think there is any way to compete in the West and be cheap, not with our current management  model at least. Sorry to re-litigate all this, I just wonder what everyone figures the way forward is. If this is the first opening of our title window it seems to me we are off to a rough start as a franchise, until Nico and Mark prove otherwise. We get one shot with our full compliment of assets coming available after next season to get it right. Losing Brunson for nothing just made that even tougher in my estimation.

Yes, I feel Dallas is in a really treacherous place....and that is weird considering how last year was a success.   I hoped the plan was bring back the roster as is, make some improvements (Wood, McGee), pay the tax, clear up the bench large contracts next year, and be ready to pounce on the big deal when is appears.   This next season may have been a step back if we followed that path, but I was optimistic it was a group that liked playing together and played well as a group.

Without Brunson, I think we have taken a step back from the top and I am also glancing behind us as the young teams are gaining speed.   

In all likelihood it may be best to take the long view approach and not make any drastic changes now.  The issue is Luka is in a win now space and how does he react if we have clearly taken a step back?   I think we all want to make that big move now.  But the problem is that move may not be available and if we bet wrong again, we may be stuck with no assets moving forward and the impending future Luka FA date getting closer and closer.  

Even if we take the long view approach, we clearly need another ball handler and another wing.   I can't believe we would go into the season without either.    I think minutes for a wing can be manufactured internally, but it was a stated objective of the team this offseason.  So I expect at least some kind of move is made there.