ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[ItsGoTime]

Oops poor omission by me.  

Wood-  Really like the gamble.  We will see how it works out though.   Never has played heavy minutes for a good team.  Typically this goes one of two ways.  I expect some bumps.   I wasn't expecting him to come off the bench.  Does he respond similar to Wiggins development at Golden State or is he who he is as a guy who puts up stats but doesn't impact winning?  

The D grade I had earlier factored this move already though.

It was an amazing gamble, esp considering they still got their man in the draft. I think a D at this stage is pretty pessimistic. If Wood doesn’t fit defensively, he for sure fits offensively. Every strength he has plays right into what we need on offense (to the point that there’s very little reason to look for a Collins trade anymore). Considering JB didn’t bring much defense either, that, to me, is on par with an even swap.

Now, we know JB was playing the good soldier and was an amazing teammate. That to me is the only real gamble part. Players don’t have to like eachother to win though, and Luka is the most looked up to player in the lockerroom, with that and his easy going demeanor, it’s hard to imagine Wood stepping too far out of line (and let’s be serious, there are no reports of him being any kind of malcontent, just speculation on him not sticking to any team). 

Other than that, it’s all upside. If he plays at least average defense that would be a huge upgrade, the better the defense, the better the upgrade. The guy does block shots and gets steals at a better rate than Maxi Kleber BTW.

[mvossman]

It was an amazing gamble, esp considering they still got their man in the draft. I think a D at this stage is pretty pessimistic. If Wood doesn’t fit defensively, he for sure fits offensively. Every strength he has plays right into what we need on offense (to the point that there’s very little reason to look for a Collins trade anymore). Considering JB didn’t bring much defense either, that, to me, is on par with an even swap.

Now, we know JB was playing the good soldier and was an amazing teammate. That to me is the only real gamble part. Players don’t have to like eachother to win though, and Luka is the most looked up to player in the lockerroom, with that and his easy going demeanor, it’s hard to imagine Wood stepping too far out of line (and let’s be serious, there are no reports of him being any kind of malcontent, just speculation on him not sticking to any team). 

Other than that, it’s all upside. If he plays at least average defense that would be a huge upgrade, the better the defense, the better the upgrade. The guy does block shots and gets steals at a better rate than Maxi Kleber BTW.

I'm going with a D as well.  I look at the moves in order of importance:

Letting Brunson walk for nothing.  This can't happen.  It's an F at this point.
Trading for Wood.  This is an A move.  Brings the overall close to a C
Doing absolutely nothing to replace Brunson playmaking.  This was an issue last year until TDL.  Brings the overall down to D
McGee signing.  The third year player option is a joke and given the above two moves would have rather gone for Rubio type player
Hardy.  Looks like a bust, but most 2nds are.  Fine with the flyer.  Would rather have paid cash than seconds.  Another sign Cuban cheap

As for comparing Wood and Maxi defensive stats, that is probably a good argument not to look at those in a vacuum.  Even a box score advanced stat like DBPM has Wood as below average and Maxi above, particularly this last season.

[ItsGoTime]

I'm going with a D as well.  I look at the moves in order of importance:

Letting Brunson walk for nothing.  This can't happen.  It's an F at this point.
Trading for Wood.  This is an A move.  Brings the overall close to a C
Doing absolutely nothing to replace Brunson playmaking.  This was an issue last year until TDL.  Brings the overall down to D
McGee signing.  The third year player option is a joke and given the above two moves would have rather gone for Rubio type player
Hardy.  Looks like a bust, but most 2nds are.  Fine with the flyer.  Would rather have paid cash than seconds.  Another sign Cuban cheap

As for comparing Wood and Maxi defensive stats, that is probably a good argument not to look at those in a vacuum.  Even a box score advanced stat like DBPM has Wood as below average and Maxi above, particularly this last season.

I was putting those box stats in for Wood to show that he does have some defensive tools to get to where we hope for him. A player doesn’t just luck into getting 1 bpg (they can luck into getting .8 spg but there has to be at least some hustle to get more than .5 pg).

As far as the McGee signing, the joke is the previous FO group putting this roster in the position where we even have to overpay in negotiations against KL’s favorite city in the world. As far as the player? His impact remains to be seen, but he is, on paper (which if we’re grading right now is the only way to look at it) a large upgrade to Powell. Years on his contract (2 vs 3) make little difference to me. If he isn’t what we want in year 1, $5M is fine to pay a backup. If he declines in year 2, he’s only finishing out the year away from being an expiring and is paid fine as a bench player. If he declines in year 3 he’s a low money expiring throw in for a TDL trade. It’s an overpay (in years), but in the board’s discussion revolving around this topic, that is what we’re gonna have to do to get FAs coming from other teams. Joke? Hardly. 

Not getting a ball handling replacement for JB is a calculated risk from a group that has seen much more Mavs ball (and for that matter, NBA ball) than we have. Another, remains to be seen, item up for judgement. You want to go the dark pessimistic way about it, I get it, I’d rather have another rotation level ball handler, but I’m not going to presume that is so required as to drop a full letter grade. 

The trade unlocked the offense with SD playing above his season and way above his career 3% numbers, but it also downgraded our defense. Not yet getting a ball handling injury replacement, I think, is the bigger sin, but with a roster spot still open, there are still options open (heck, signing Pinson always will give us a waive option).

If it turns out THJ has negative trade value like I said in a previous discussion we had long ago and the plan is to play him to get that value up so we can trade for a ball handling upgrade, I would prefer that as opposed to trading now and having to give up too much. That’s good asset management, but remains to be seen. It is, however, speculation that has been thrown out on this board previously.

[mvossman]

I was putting those box stats in for Wood to show that he does have some defensive tools to get to where we hope for him. A player doesn’t just luck into getting 1 bpg (they can luck into getting .8 spg but there has to be at least some hustle to get more than .5 pg).

As far as the McGee signing, the joke is the previous FO group putting this roster in the position where we even have to overpay in negotiations against KL’s favorite city in the world. As far as the player? His impact remains to be seen, but he is, on paper (which if we’re grading right now is the only way to look at it) a large upgrade to Powell. Years on his contract (2 vs 3) make little difference to me. If he isn’t what we want in year 1, $5M is fine to pay a backup. If he declines in year 2, he’s only finishing out the year away from being an expiring and is paid fine as a bench player. If he declines in year 3 he’s a low money expiring throw in for a TDL trade. It’s an overpay (in years), but in the board’s discussion revolving around this topic, that is what we’re gonna have to do to get FAs coming from other teams. Joke? Hardly. 

Not getting a ball handling replacement for JB is a calculated risk from a group that has seen much more Mavs ball (and for that matter, NBA ball) than we have. Another, remains to be seen, item up for judgement. You want to go the dark pessimistic way about it, I get it, I’d rather have another rotation level ball handler, but I’m not going to presume that is so required as to drop a full letter grade. 

The trade unlocked the offense with SD playing above his season and way above his career 3% numbers, but it also downgraded our defense. Not yet getting a ball handling injury replacement, I think, is the bigger sin, but with a roster spot still open, there are still options open (heck, signing Pinson always will give us a waive option).

If it turns out THJ has negative trade value like I said in a previous discussion we had long ago and the plan is to play him to get that value up so we can trade for a ball handling upgrade, I would prefer that as opposed to trading now and having to give up too much. That’s good asset management, but remains to be seen. It is, however, speculation that has been thrown out on this board previously.

I don't disagree with most of this.  I'm not happy about three years for McGee, but the joke comment was mostly made to the player option.  In what universe is somebody going to offer McGee more than 5 mil when he is 37?  It does not really impact anything, I just think its silly.

I think we are roughly on the same page, I just might be a little harsher grader than you (or have a bigger issue with them letting Brunson walk for nothing).  If we signed Dragic like we should have, I probably give it a C.  If we end up picking up Kemba, I probably give it a C-.  As of now, for me its a D.  I get it if yours is a little higher.

[ItsGoTime]

I don't disagree with most of this.  I'm not happy about three years for McGee, but the joke comment was mostly made to the player option.  In what universe is somebody going to offer McGee more than 5 mil when he is 37?  It does not really impact anything, I just think its silly.

I think we are roughly on the same page, I just might be a little harsher grader than you (or have a bigger issue with them letting Brunson walk for nothing).  If we signed Dragic like we should have, I probably give it a C.  If we end up picking up Kemba, I probably give it a C-.  As of now, for me its a D.  I get it if yours is a little higher.

I know you share the same intrigue as me in what we think will be the best/closing lineup. I really do believe that lineup of Luka/SD or THJ or RB/DFS or RB/Wood or DFS/Wood or Maxi is really gonna show the worth of these offseason moves. I think the mix and match of those players make us top 10 offense and defense capable.

[IamDougieFresh]

Which is the lesser evil for 3rd PG?

Frank
Hardy trial by fire
Point THJ
Rely on two way contract Dorsey

I’m scared.

[Hypermav]

Frank

[IamDougieFresh]

Frank

I'm a big Frank fan, but the offense is going to be dead when he's out there without Luka/Dinwiddie. The only workaround IMO, would be if Wood can become a player to run the offense through. I think that is possible, but he has some work to do.

[omahen]

Mavericks fill out training camp roster with five signees - The Official Home of the Dallas Mavericks (mavs.com)

[Chicagojk]

So it would appear the two most likely of the two way candidate is McKinley Wright and DJ Stewart.  Both undrafted in the 21 draft.

Wright appears to be a tough kid and has strong character.  He is just small and hasn’t proven to be a great shooter but does a lot of the other stuff well.  Maybe they view him as the emergency point early in season.  May be a guy who is too good for G league but not quite good enough for the nba.  We will see.

I don’t know much about Stewart.  He has some athletic G league highlights from last year.  Has the prototype build and athleticism.  He bounced around some last year.

I guess Brigham should be considered a candidate for the two way spot as well.

[omahen]

So it would appear the two most likely of the two way candidate is McKinley Wright and DJ Stewart.  Both undrafted in the 21 draft.

Wright appears to be a tough kid and has strong character.  He is just small and hasn’t proven to be a great shooter but does a lot of the other stuff well.  Maybe they view him as the emergency point early in season.  May be a guy who is too good for G league but not quite good enough for the nba.  We will see.

I don’t know much about Stewart.  He has some athletic G league highlights from last year.  Has the prototype build and athleticism.  He bounced around some last year.

I guess Brigham should be considered a candidate for the two way spot as well.

I don't really like the constant rotation of 2-way/summer league team players Mavs have. It seems there is no consistency, no real effort put into development of the guys that do make it. No real plan what to do.

Some teams do seem to develop cheap rotation players through this system.

[KillerLeft]

Which is the lesser evil for 3rd PG?

Frank
Hardy trial by fire
Point THJ
Rely on two way contract Dorsey

I’m scared.

Dorsey, based on what I've seen. I'm not thrilled about it, but he's the guy with the right skills and the most experience. Hardy by fire is a distant second.

[Chicagojk]

I don't really like the constant rotation of 2-way/summer league team players Mavs have. It seems there is no consistency, no real effort put into development of the guys that do make it. No real plan what to do.

Some teams do seem to develop cheap rotation players through this system.

My vision is to have a two year development program.   So each year you invest in a player with the intention you are developing him for two years.  After two years the goal is the player can win a roster spot.    So ideally you would have one guy who is in year 2 now and than a new guy starting the process thisyear.

That is not to say, you don't move on from someone if you decide you were wrong or if they aren't good enough.   I agree I would also like to see scouting & player development target players who are under your umbrella for a little while with the hope they eventually earn a regular spot.

[KillerLeft]

https://twitter.com/627zach/status/1573394207384997888?s=20&t=6F-8i1Mj3Srx8Ej2HfcBYg

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Damnit.

I love Frank but not when he’s dribbling a basketball.

[KillerLeft]

Damnit.

I love Frank but not when he’s dribbling a basketball.

I mean, they might be way better on the defensive end than last year, even, if these plans they're making actually work...but on offense???

[Kammrath]

FN!!!!

[Chicagojk]

https://twitter.com/627zach/status/1573394207384997888?s=20&t=6F-8i1Mj3Srx8Ej2HfcBYg

I am not sure of the context of that quote so I don't want to make too much of it.   I just think it is a tough ask with a team lacking in ball handlers to count on Frank to excel in this role.  

I actually think he could potentially into a Pat Beverly lite role.   For that to work here, we really would need to replace Hardaway with a wing who can run the offense.   I think that could be a nice role for Frank.  Could.   I just don't see us acquiring that player anytime soon.

---

https://twitter.com/CallieCaplan/status/...5955177472

[KillerLeft]

I actually think he could potentially into a Pat Beverly lite role.   For that to work here, we really would need to replace Hardaway with a wing who can run the offense.   I think that could be a nice role for Frank.  Could.   I just don't see us acquiring that player anytime soon.

I would feel better about it if they were saying "we're going to start Ntilikina next to Luka to guard the point of attack but never have him handle the ball." But "backup PG"??????

[F Gump]

I would feel better about it if they were saying "we're going to start Ntilikina next to Luka to guard the point of attack but never have him handle the ball." But "backup PG"??????

SOMEONE is going to be needed and used as a backup PG, the 3rd guy. It's inevitable. If FN is ever going to learn to be a playmaker as well as a defender, he's being put in an ideal cocoon to learn. I am as leery as the next guy, but they did see a little something last season, so it's not unreasonable to try him.

Nor is it all that risky. In normal games and situations, the 3rd guy will ALWAYS be on the floor with either Luka or SD doing the vast majority of the playmaking, so won't have to be depended on for a large degree of that until and unless he's ready.