ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[IamDougieFresh]

Hardy trial by fire if(when) we don’t add another creator?

[F Gump]

Hardy trial by fire if(when) we don’t add another creator?

Kidd giving the keys to the car to Hardy? I'm not seeing it. My expectations for him are quite low, and I'm just hoping he isn't total pond scum. Perhaps I will be wrong.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

I like Hardy, but I don't expect him to have more minutes than any of Dorsey, Frankie and Green.

Dorsey is the real wild card here. He is the most polished scorer among the backups, but is his offense enough to catapult him over a (supposed) improved Green? I really am expecting a jump from JG, but Dorsey can swoop in and take his place on the totem early if Green doesn't come out aggressive.

[KillerLeft]

Hardy trial by fire if(when) we don’t add another creator?

Nah. Dorsey, maybe.

[IamDougieFresh]

Guys... who is going to dribble then? Fucking Frank? McShaqtin? DWIGHT?

[KillerLeft]

Guys... who is going to dribble then? Fucking Frank? McShaqtin? DWIGHT?

I mean, it's not what I would've done this off season, so don't put me in a position to defend the "plan", but...I think Dorsey is the 3rd ball-handler you're asking about. That's all I'm saying. 

He has been a lead guard in every single video I've watched of him recently.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

Dorsey fits the secondary playmaker, someone who can score, dribble and hand out assists. Would be a good outlet if defenders try to trap Luka or Dinwiddie.

He would work well with Luka or Dinwiddie on the court. But IMHo, he will struggle mightily if tasked with PG duties for long stretches. The offense would stagnate with him. One can probably say the same with Clarkson, but Clarkson's scoring abilities would at least negate some of the deficiencies he has as a distributor.

[KillerLeft]

He would work well with Luka or Dinwiddie on the court. But IMHo, he will struggle mightily if tasked with PG duties for long stretches.

Totally agree, but you could almost say the same thing about Dinwiddie. I'm just trying to understand the Mavs' thinking, and if another PG isn't added before the season starts, the only conclusion that makes any sense to me whatsoever is that they feel like Dorsey can handle it. 

We know Ntilikina can't. 
We know that's not really Hardaway's game. 
The rookie might be the right type, but depending on him in that role right out of the gate would be nut-bar-factor-9.

[mvossman]

Totally agree, but you could almost say the same thing about Dinwiddie. I'm just trying to understand the Mavs' thinking, and if another PG isn't added before the season starts, the only conclusion that makes any sense to me whatsoever is that they feel like Dorsey can handle it. 

We know Ntilikina can't. 
We know that's not really Hardaway's game. 
The rookie might be the right type, but depending on him in that role right out of the gate would be nut-bar-factor-9.

Why would we say the same thing about Dinwiddie?  Didn't he get that 20 Nets team into the playoffs as the starting point guard after Kyrie went down?  He scored over 20 points a game and dished out almost 7 assists.  I'm not worried about him running the show for stretches.

[KillerLeft]

Why would we say the same thing about Dinwiddie?  Didn't he get that 20 Nets team into the playoffs as the starting point guard after Kyrie went down?  He scored over 20 points a game and dished out almost 7 assists.  I'm not worried about him running the show for stretches.

Well, maybe I’ll feel differently once I see him with a training camp under his belt, but as impressed with him as I was last year I don’t know that I came away thinking he was a good PG, exactly. Good at using space to create for himself, for sure. 

I think even Luka is still learning what it takes to run an offense at the top level and not just go 1-on-1 and make the right pass when he gets trapped. 

I think you could make the case (if you tried) that there literally isn’t a single true PG on the roster. That’s not the point I’m trying to make, but I do think a guy like Conley (or Lowry, last year) could have a positive impact here in ways most of us don’t seem to see coming.

[michaeltex]

Changing the topic a bit...

Watching Mike Tobey in yesterday's Slovenia vs Lithuania EuroBall game, I was struck by how well he plays off how the defense is reacting to Luka, Goran and the other guards. He doesn't just run out to the 3pt line as a clear out, but stays available for short lobs and wrap around passes, which also serves to put him in the area for offensive rebounds. That ended up being a pick-your-poison choice for the opposing defense.

After watching, my hope is this is the type of role that CWood can fill, but with more athleticism.

[ItsGoTime]

Well, maybe I’ll feel differently once I see him with a training camp under his belt, but as impressed with him as I was last year I don’t know that I came away thinking he was a good PG, exactly. Good at using space to create for himself, for sure. 

I think even Luka is still learning what it takes to run an offense at the top level and not just go 1-on-1 and make the right pass when he gets trapped. 

I think you could make the case (if you tried) that there literally isn’t a single true PG on the roster. That’s not the point I’m trying to make, but I do think a guy like Conley (or Lowry, last year) could have a positive impact here in ways most of us don’t seem to see coming.

This makes me wonder about why you’re so mad about JB leaving. He is no different than what you’re saying about SD. The way all 3 played is the cause of I go, you go. I do think you’re right about this post also.

[Scott41theMavs]

This makes me wonder about why you’re so mad about JB leaving. He is no different than what you’re saying about SD. The way all 3 played is the cause of I go, you go. I do think you’re right about this post also.

You've been wringing your hands about this I go, you go thing for quite a while. To me, if they don't find ways to mesh their ballhandlers creatively, that's on Kidd and his assistants, 100%. I think we can see from the international contests that Doncic doesn't have a problem with creative, move-and-share-the-ball offense, so it isn't him. Unless, even with JB and SD last year, he was butthurt at the capabilities of his teammates to mesh that way, which would be a doubly bad sign for the coming season with JB's exit, and an even worse sign for Dallas's prospects of keeping Luka long-term.

[ItsGoTime]

You've been wringing your hands about this I go, you go thing for quite a while. To me, if they don't find ways to mesh their ballhandlers creatively, that's on Kidd and his assistants, 100%. I think we can see from the international contests that Doncic doesn't have a problem with creative, move-and-share-the-ball offense, so it isn't him. Unless, even with JB and SD last year, he was butthurt at the capabilities of his teammates to mesh that way, which would be a doubly bad sign for the coming season with JB's exit, and an even worse sign for Dallas's prospects of keeping Luka long-term.

Coaches don't make a guy look for assists as opposed to their own scoring at this stage of players development. It's on the FO to bring in the guys that already have that mentality. I see the move of not maxing out JB as acknowledgement that they don't like that style of play also (while mentioning that there is a very real possibility that he doesn't live up to the max contract). Luka has his moments in the NBA of both being a distributor and tunnel vision to get his. 


I think there was also the possibility that Luka has the ball so much that when JB got the ball in his hands, he better not let it go cause there's no telling when he'd get it back, that and maybe some, anything you can do, I can do better mentality. I have no evidence to support that other than seeing that mentality with people who have a chip on their shoulder and the competitive determination that JB had.

[KillerLeft]

Coaches don't make a guy look for assists as opposed to their own scoring at this stage of players development.

Oof. I don't think I agree with that. I'd say giving players instructions on what to do in specific situations (and in general) is exactly what coaches do. Do you remember the famous story where Nellie and Steve Nash brought each other to tears after a game having an emotional conversation about why Nash was too scared to try to score the ball? Nellie basically begged him just to try, and Nash finally agreed to do so. That was when the team started winning, basically. Also, I'd bet a ton of money that a young player shot-hunting  when the coach things he should be moving the ball is going to have a tough time staying on the floor. 

I agree with your aesthetic concerns over the offensive style last season, and Carlisle never would've gone that way, but I can't say with any certainty that Kidd wasn't into it. Probably the opposite, tbh. 

With your points about Brunson, specifically, I have seen him play PG very well. I think what we saw last year was him adjusting a bit so that he could play off of Luka (whether we liked how he went about that or was advised to go about that or not). 

But, play style has less than no weight on the Brunson situation. A team as asset strapped as the Mavs simply couldn't let their second best player go. It's as black and white as that for me. Now, what you do after you re-sign him, or, even better, get him earlier on that extension, that's a conversation that would've been worth having had they not been so completely and utterly inept with it all.

[ItsGoTime]

Oof. I don't think I agree with that. I'd say giving players instructions on what to do in specific situations (and in general) is exactly what coaches do. Do you remember the famous story where Nellie and Steve Nash brought each other to tears after a game having an emotional conversation about why Nash was too scared to try to score the ball? Nellie basically begged him just to try, and Nash finally agreed to do so. That was when the team started winning, basically. Also, I'd bet a ton of money that a young player shot-hunting  when the coach things he should be moving the ball is going to have a tough time staying on the floor. 

I agree with your aesthetic concerns over the offensive style last season, and Carlisle never would've gone that way, but I can't say with any certainty that Kidd wasn't into it. Probably the opposite, tbh. 

With your points about Brunson, specifically, I have seen him play PG very well. I think what we saw last year was him adjusting a bit so that he could play off of Luka (whether we liked how he went about that or was advised to go about that or not). 

But, play style has less than no weight on the Brunson situation. A team as asset strapped as the Mavs simply couldn't let their second best player go. It's as black and white as that for me. Now, what you do after you re-sign him, or, even better, get him earlier on that extension, that's a conversation that would've been worth having had they not been so completely and utterly inept with it all.

OK, so, just like the 100% on the coaches was wrong, my fully absolving the coaches is wrong too. It just takes more than the coaches. I saw what Kidd was doing with the team last year as him evaluating them and seeing what they're best at and asking them to do those things. 


At the end of the day though, I think this team will be his vision of what is supposed to be on the floor and I think the decision to not max out JB (and there's no telling if NY would have matched or gotten close enough to that too) was made after a full season of careful evaluation and knowledge of where Kidd wants to go with this team.

I myself HATE losing JB for nothing and it is fully a black spot on what would have been an amazing offseason. I don't think the team we have is punting on a season at all though and I can see some light at the end of the tunnel next offseason.

Edit: Also, Carlisle allowed JJB to pound the ball into the floor for what seemed like hours per possession, so you can't say he wouldn't have done the same.

[ItsGoTime]

Carlisle never would've gone that way

So I edited it late, but had to get this read!

Also, Carlisle allowed JJB to pound the ball into the floor for what seemed like hours per possession, so you can't say he wouldn't have done the same.

As well as it's more probable that RC keeps JB on the bench as opposed to starting him, maybe he starts him after the THJ injury, but RC liked to pull the 3rd stringer in to start so the bench player kept playing his same role.

[F Gump]

Also, Carlisle allowed JJB to pound the ball into the floor for what seemed like hours per possession, so you can't say he wouldn't have done the same.

JB's game is still a lot of this, and in NY that's likely to increase if he's the lead ball handler. Will Knicks embrace that, or will it grow real old real fast? That has nothing to do with Mavs, but it will be interesting to watch, because he has the potential to be NY's version of the H Barnes acquisition.

[ItsGoTime]

JB's game is still of lot of this, and in NY that's likely to increase if he's the lead ball handler. Will Knicks embrace that, or will it grow real old real fast? That has nothing to do with Mavs, but it will be interesting to watch, because he has the potential to be NY's version of the H Barnes acquisition.

I can for sure see that, especially since the Mitchell trade didn't happen for them. Although, last year it seems like both Randle and Barrett's games suffered as they basically fought to control the ball. Adding JB into that mix? Thibs is about to see I go, you go on another level.

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...6440843265