ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[ItsGoTime]

The way I thought you had explained it was a wing is a wing is a wing, because it described the area of the court a player plays from in the offense. Maybe I still don’t get this whole wing description cause dfs98 talked about defensive assignments which I thought was dispelled in our previous discussion.


Before our discussion I thought we needed a “big wing”, but that was basically another way of saying…we need a PF. C’s have basically stayed C’s. PFs turned into big wings. SG and SF in general turned into wings and PGs at some point became ball handlers. Just feels like changing words to change words because…high brow reasons.

Oh, I also forgot to talk about the Frank and Green inclusions. I don’t think of either of them as a traditional pg type, bring the ball down the court, set up and initiate the offense. I think of them as bail out ball handlers and secondary action creators. In a pinch, they can do the other things, so in that sense Maxi should be included with the bigs.


This discussion does bleed into what are the definitions of the other spots too. Because people placing Wood singularly in the “big” spot makes me think they miss a large portion of his game.

[Kammrath]

I don't get it. You're not really advocating for Ntilinka being played as a point guard, are you? Guarding one, SURE! But playing that actual position? If he could do that, he'd still be in NY, playing on a healthy extension by now. It was obvious by his 3rd or 4th game here that he didn't have that in him.

If the Mavs (who see him in practice all the time) think he is capable and ready for that kind of role, then I support it.

[KillerLeft]

Before our discussion I thought we needed a “big wing”, but that was basically another way of saying…we need a PF. C’s have basically stayed C’s. PFs turned into big wings. SG and SF in general turned into wings and PGs at some point became ball handlers. Just feels like changing words to change words because…high brow reasons.

2s and 3s used to be called wings back before everyone stating pretending wing could be used interchangeably to describe 99% of the NBA players on Earth. 

I think the way things have changed, some 4's can be described as wings (like Durant, for example)...or maybe a better way of thinking of it is that a lot of 3s are now playing the 4. 

Kleber is not that type, however, imo, because of his skillset. I think he's 100% a 4 in the Dirk era (and still on the lower end, skills wise, even back then) and 100% a big (who can function well in the right two-big lineup) in today's game. I can understand those who'd prefer to call him a forward, holding, as some do, to an outmoded view of what a center actually does in today's game, but not even "big wing" or "bigger wing" does it justice, imho. 

It's all just semantics at some point, I suppose, but on the other hand I do think these words convey actual specific meaning when one pro-basketball type uses them to communicate with another, and I often think the way these terms get used here is likely pretty far from how they're intended to be used.

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If the Mavs (who see him in practice all the time) think he is capable and ready for that kind of role, then I support it.

I agree. But, I'm asking your opinion. Do you think he's right for a ball-handling, offensive initiation role? In other words, do you think it's likely that this is their plan?

[ItsGoTime]

It's all just semantics at some point, I suppose, but on the other hand I do think these words convey actual specific meaning when one pro-basketball type uses them to communicate with another, and I often think the way these terms get used here is likely pretty far from how they're intended to be used.

I’ve been willing to be a part of the people around here that you’re talking about, what I’ve been trying to get from anyone who is willing to explain it, is what is the actual specific meaning that pro-basketball types use? I think the guys on the Locked On podcast are pro-basketball types (maybe not), yet they used the term “quasi-wing” when referring to THJ. So there is a wing, and then there’s a “quasi-wing”? What does that entail? I’m really trying to understand. When dfs98 talks about it, he talks in terms of the defensive assignment. You two, while you disagree at times, are usually pretty lock step when it comes to this type conversation. Is this just a, you know it when you see it thing, and I just don’t have that eye that pro-basketball types have? 

[KillerLeft]

yet they used the term “quasi-wing” when referring to THJ.

I think Isaac knows basketball, but doesn't think detail-oriented debates like this one are important. I think these types of things just roll past him. 

Nick, I think, is not very knowledgeable about basketball at all. Like, most of the people here get it more than he does, imho. 

I would have to hear the context of them using that term, but Hardaway is a wing to me. Definitely more on the off-guard side of the spectrum, but definitely not a point guard, and definitely not a guy who can play 4. I think there's a little confusion right now around Hardaway because of the state of the current roster. Do they view him as the 3rd guard, in rotation with Luka and Dinwiddie? If so, then yes, they need another wing to rotate with DFS/Bullock. I think most of us see him in the DFS/Bulock rotation and think another guard is needed more, and there are probably some who think Hardaway doesn't fit anywhere and the roster needs one of BOTH. 

It is kind of a "know it when you see it" thing for me, as you say. When it comes to Kleber...he never faces up and floors the ball, is constantly being used as a screener on offense, even when there's another big on the floor (leading me to believe he's playing the 4 only when they're using a multi-big lineup). It's a combination of things - there's no one thing that defines my view.

And I could be totally wrong, so there's that.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think Isaac knows basketball, but doesn't think detail-oriented debates like this one are important. I think these types of things just roll past him. 

Nick, I think, is not very knowledgeable about basketball at all. Like, most of the people here get it more than he does, imho. 

I would have to hear the context of them using that term, but Hardaway is a wing to me. Definitely more on the off-guard side of the spectrum, but definitely not a point guard, and definitely not a guy who can play 4. I think there's a little confusion right now around Hardaway because of the state of the current roster. Do they view him as the 3rd guard, in rotation with Luka and Dinwiddie? If so, then yes, they need another wing to rotate with DFS/Bullock. I think most of us see him in the DFS/Bulock rotation and think another guard is needed more, and there are probably some who think Hardaway doesn't fit anywhere and the roster needs one of BOTH. 

It is kind of a "know it when you see it" thing for me, as you say. When it comes to Kleber...he never faces up and floors the ball, is constantly being used as a screener on offense, even when there's another big on the floor (leading me to believe he's playing the 4 only when they're using a multi-big lineup). It's a combination of things - there's no one thing that defines my view.

And I could be totally wrong, so there's that.

I think THJ could be termed a wing, as much as he could an off-guard. I wouldn't so much call him a "quasi-wing," but the big issue with him is defense. I'm sure someone will provide some stat or another to rebut me, but the eye test showed me last year that Spence - reputedly an awful defender - had done a far better job of buying somewhat effectively into Kidd's team defense concept in a couple of weeks than THJ had in a few months. To me, that's why THJ ought to be trade fodder prior to the season, regardless of how "sell low" a situation it is.

[Kammrath]

I agree. But, I'm asking your opinion. Do you think he's right for a ball-handling, offensive initiation role? In other words, do you think it's likely that this is their plan?

I don't think I have seen enough to be confident he is capable, but I have seen enough to not be nervous if Kidd thinks he is ready. Hopefully that makes sense.

[VintagePejav2]

If the Mavs (who see him in practice all the time) think he is capable and ready for that kind of role, then I support it.

Frank is a wing and hopefully one that can be an effective catch-and-shoot threat on the Mavericks next season.

[KillerLeft]

Frank is a wing and hopefully one that can be an effective catch-and-shoot threat on the Mavericks next season.

His corner 3 game was better than I expected it to be when he signed here, that's for sure.

[StepBackJay]

I think THJ could be termed a wing, as much as he could an off-guard. I wouldn't so much call him a "quasi-wing," but the big issue with him is defense. I'm sure someone will provide some stat or another to rebut me, but the eye test showed me last year that Spence - reputedly an awful defender - had done a far better job of buying somewhat effectively into Kidd's team defense concept in a couple of weeks than THJ had in a few months. To me, that's why THJ ought to be trade fodder prior to the season, regardless of how "sell low" a situation it is.

Bojan is the guy we need. Trade THJ somewhere and get Bojan. Play him off the bench and play him with Luka. Does lots of things and is a much better fit with Luka. Should be a guy you can resign.

[SleepingHero]

Bojan is the guy we need. Trade THJ somewhere and get Bojan. Play him off the bench and play him with Luka. Does lots of things and is a much better fit with Luka. Should be a guy you can resign.

Not sure how much better 32 year old Bojan is vs. 29 year old THJ. I'd be interested in making Bojan our 6th man, but not really at the cost of THJ.

With Ainge, there's no shot he'll be interested in a Powell package. Heck I don't think he cares about any of our guys (sans Luka), and would prefer a boatload of picks. 

I wonder if Ainge would be interested in a Conley+Clarkson for Bertans+Powell+1st?

That Rudy Gobert trade really ruined every other trade. Every GM is going to expect at least 2 FRP for their stuff.

[Kammrath]

Not sure how much better 32 year old Bojan is vs. 29 year old THJ

Yup.

[DanSchwartzgan]

With Ainge, there's no shot he'll be interested in a Powell package. Heck I don't think he cares about any of our guys (sans Luka), and would prefer a boatload of picks. 

I think you have to think of Powell as a contract and not as a player.

To me, the only possible fit here is Ainge (or some other GM) preferring Powell’s $11mm expiring instead of some other mediocre player needed to trade match with multiple years left. 

Of course, there are probably 20 other teams trying to play this game.  Did anyone else see the Stein mention that IF there is a Mitchell to NY deal that the Knicks might pursue a Randle for Westbrook deal to clear Randle?

[Chicagojk]

I think you have to think of Powell as a contract and not as a player.

To me, the only possible fit here is Ainge (or some other GM) preferring Powell’s $11mm expiring instead of some other mediocre player needed to trade match with multiple years left. 

Of course, there are probably 20 other teams trying to play this game.  Did anyone else see the Stein mention that IF there is a Mitchell to NY deal that the Knicks might pursue a Randle for Westbrook deal to clear Randle?

Never been a Westbrook fan and it sounds like he is totally against playing the role he needs to be playing.   

But if he is traded to NYC or Utah (maybe Brooklyn too), he is probably bought out.   Would ya for the 15th spot if he would be willing to come off the bench?

[DanSchwartzgan]

Never been a Westbrook fan and it sounds like he is totally against playing the role he needs to be playing.   

But if he is traded to NYC or Utah (maybe Brooklyn too), he is probably bought out.   Would ya for the 15th spot if he would be willing to come off the bench?

There are probably 1,000 ways that ends poorly from a culture standpoint.  Four teams have gotten tired of his act in the last four years (but one of those was Wash and we’ve already had a good experience with a Wash PG who didn’t fit there).

As a bench playmaker surrounded by THJ, Wood and Maxi, I could see the attraction.  He can still get in the lane and finish at the rim or pass out to the open man.  He did 3 things last season at higher than career average…0-3 FG%, Corner 3% and turn the ball over.  I would probably hate such a signing initially and eventually come around to seeing the possibilities.  Half the league has cap room next summer and he has a chance of making some money if he can rehabilitate his reputation and his game somewhere.

[StepBackJay]

Not sure how much better 32 year old Bojan is vs. 29 year old THJ. I'd be interested in making Bojan our 6th man, but not really at the cost of THJ.

With Ainge, there's no shot he'll be interested in a Powell package. Heck I don't think he cares about any of our guys (sans Luka), and would prefer a boatload of picks. 

I wonder if Ainge would be interested in a Conley+Clarkson for Bertans+Powell+1st?

That Rudy Gobert trade really ruined every other trade. Every GM is going to expect at least 2 FRP for their stuff.

Bojan is just a much better player than THJ all the way around. And Bojan is a legit career shooter. It's nice that THJ had 2 good years shooting from 3 next to Luka but then his average sunk last year. He is an average shooter, especially because he takes contested shots that he shouldn't take. If THJ shot more open shots he would probably have a higher average. Bojan would be an amazing addition.

[StepBackJay]

I thought Boj did an okay job on Luka despite Luka getting his like he always does. THJ could never be able to guard a guy like Luka. Bojan isn't a defensive stopper or anything but he would be fine in Kidd's switching scheme.

[Chicagojk]

There are probably 1,000 ways that ends poorly from a culture standpoint.  Four teams have gotten tired of his act in the last four years (but one of those was Wash and we’ve already had a good experience with a Wash PG who didn’t fit there).

As a bench playmaker surrounded by THJ, Wood and Maxi, I could see the attraction.  He can still get in the lane and finish at the rim or pass out to the open man.  He did 3 things last season at higher than career average…0-3 FG%, Corner 3% and turn the ball over.  I would probably hate such a signing initially and eventually come around to seeing the possibilities.  Half the league has cap room next summer and he has a chance of making some money if he can rehabilitate his reputation and his game somewhere.

Yeah, it would be a tough fit for me.  Although if you squint hard enough, you could envision telling Russ you are Luka in the non Luka minutes.....just with more turnovers, worse shooting and worse efficiency.  The question is how do you find minutes with him playing with Luka.   The role he played with Harden later in his Houston season would be ok, but not sure if he has that any longer or is willing to play this way.

BTW, I saw a Bleacher report article about crazy trades that could work.  They had Lakers getting Conley, Bojan, and Beasley for Westbrook and Talen Horton tucker, plus two future Lakers firsts.   I don't expectthis to happen, but I think that is interesting for both teams.   

They also had one with Miami getting Irving.  I always thought he was a sneaky play for them.  Especially if they can't get KD or Mitchell.    Maybe they can tame the crazy.

[DanSchwartzgan]

BTW, I saw a Bleacher report article about crazy trades that could work.  They had Lakers getting Conley, Bojan, and Beasley for Westbrook and Talen Horton tucker, plus two future Lakers firsts.   I don't expectthis to happen, but I think that is interesting for both teams.   

I actually don’t think that is crazy at all.  NY has to send multiple bodies to match Mitchell just like Minnesota did with Gobert.  Utah can’t start the season with 37 guaranteed contracts, so there has to be some movement of bodies.  Westbrook isn’t Westbrook the player in that scenario.  He’s a $47mm means to an end that brings in future LAL picks (and maybe THT).  Utah has to take back bodies when they send out the Conley’s, Bojan’s and Beasley’s of the world (unless Indy or SA are involved).  Why not one big expiring body.

I know this guy has been divisive on this board, but I wonder what JKidd thinks of THT.  I probably don’t give up a future first just for him, but if Kidd sees potential and we could somehow get him and something like McBride or Grimes for Powell and a pick, I’m probably doing that, but I like THT’s potential.  Others here may have a ‘cow’ at such a suggestion.

BTW, adding those three guys to LAL dramatically changes the landscape in the West.  To me, that is a much smarter play than Irving.

BTW II, Utah is going to end up with the Dallas 2023 in a Mitchell trade.  Rather than giving up 2025, I wonder if Utah would be interested in swapping protected 2023 for unprotected 2027.  Hard to imagine the Dallas 2023 being a very good pick.  But, 26-27 is the last year of Luka’s contract.  If he is going to force his way out, that would likely be the first season without him (not predicting, just saying if I were Utah, I’d place a much higher value on 2027 than I would 2023).

[ItsGoTime]

BTW II, Utah is going to end up with the Dallas 2023 in a Mitchell trade.  Rather than giving up 2025, I wonder if Utah would be interested in swapping protected 2023 for unprotected 2027.  Hard to imagine the Dallas 2023 being a very good pick.  But, 26-27 is the last year of Luka’s contract.  If he is going to force his way out, that would likely be the first season without him (not predicting, just saying if I were Utah, I’d place a much higher value on 2027 than I would 2023).

I would do that if we had a trade target in mind for the 23 and 25 (Collins?). If not, I’d rather keep the 27 so next year I have no gaps in what I can pay a team in picks. Then again, I’m also more of the opinion that we go for 2 players when we have 4 picks to spend (2 picks for each, of the Murray level value).