ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[mvossman]

Hot take: After first sceptical enthusiasm after the Kyrie trade I am not so sure anymore that this type of player - as good as he might be - will be the Mavs' and Luka's route to a chip. Remember: The two offensive stars in the backcourt without good defense experiment never was successful in the near past. Best example: Dame Lillard and CJ
At the moment the Mavs are basically the Dame-CJ-Trailblazers tbh, which is not a good outlook. Most important: We need a reliable rim protector to clean up the Luka blow-bys. Maxi isn't the solution to the puzzle, he is just one smaller piece which will enhance the necessary bigger piece.

I don't think Dame/CJ is a good comparison.  For one, Luka is better than Dame, and Kyrie is better than CJ.  But to your specific point, its not near the issue defensively that Dame/CJ were.  That was an undersized and poor defensive backcourt.  Hard to survive that defensively.  From a defensive perspective Luka is not really part of the backcourt.  He is a forward, and a decent defensive one when focused.  Honestly, Kyrie is not that bad either (much better than Dinwiddie).  I don't think these two are nearly as difficult to build a defense around as the Portland duo was.

This team was a top 10 defense last year with Luka and Brunson (who is not any better than Kyrie) starting.  That was mostly driven by Dorian, Bullock and Maxi.  This season, Dorian has been hurt and now gone, Bullock has been a shell of his defensive self and Maxi has been hurt most of the season.  We have two undersized centers and no power forward and limited quality wing defense.  

I think you can build a contender and win with Luka/Kyrie (or Luka/Brunson for that matter).  You just need to surround them with plus defenders.  Unfortunately we are really limited in that department.  We desperately need a replacement for Dorian.  I don't know why this FO makes a win now move with the Kyrie trade and then does nothing to fill that hole.  Maybe they are planning on signing Kyrie long term and look at this as a transitional step like they did with the KP trade.  I don't know what they can do about this season.  Powell is brutally exposed without a power forward on the court and Wood has regressed defensively.  Defense has to be the focus in the coming offseason, but given the recent lack of success in filling roster needs, I'm not super confident.

[SleepingHero]

https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...69696?s=20


Luka with the not so subtle endorsement of Kyrie.


Edit: Part 2

https://twitter.com/townbrad/status/1631...qznKQtAAAA

[omahen]

I don't know why this FO makes a win now move with the Kyrie trade and then does nothing to fill that hole.

And if they don't make that move, why did they trade 2029 pick instead of 2028 one? Trading 2029 pick gives them only two picks to play with in the summer.

Maybe they are planning on signing Kyrie long term

I am sure they are. Since losing him would be a disaster, I will not be surprised if he will get max possible contract

I don't know what they can do about this season. 

They are basically out of good contracts unless they are sending out a player like Green or Maxi, creating another hole to fill. They have two picks and Bullock, THJ or Bertans contracts. Mini MLE. Can they get two starter level players using two picks? Can they get one good (but far from star) player using both picks? Thybulle for mini MLE seems like an option, although he is playing a lot in Portland and they can easily offer him more. 3pg will also be needed for regular season.

Difficult to say atm who will be sellers in the summer, as more than two thirds of the league is still trying to compete. Toronto and Chicago seem as teams that might implode. But Chicago doesn't have any players Mavs need and Toronto wings will cost more. Washington seems to be happy as an eternal borderline play-in team and they also don't have any decent wings. Gafford could be a center target. Draymond Green situation will be interesting to follow, but I would be affraid as hell to give him any substantial long term money. Although it would be just an ultimate gamble with Irving on a long term deal.

[cow]

And if they don't make that move, why did they trade 2029 pick instead of 2028 one? Trading 2029 pick gives them only two picks to play with in the summer.




I am sure they are. Since losing him would be a disaster, I will not be surprised if he will get max possible contract




They are basically out of good contracts unless they are sending out a player like Green or Maxi, creating another hole to fill. They have two picks and Bullock, THJ or Bertans contracts. Mini MLE. Can they get two starter level players using two picks? Can they get one good (but far from star) player using both picks? Thybulle for mini MLE seems like an option, although he is playing a lot in Portland and they can easily offer him more. 3pg will also be needed for regular season.

Difficult to say atm who will be sellers in the summer, as more than two thirds of the league is still trying to compete. Toronto and Chicago seem as teams that might implode. But Chicago doesn't have any players Mavs need and Toronto wings will cost more. Washington seems to be happy as an eternal borderline play-in team and they also don't have any decent wings. Gafford could be a center target. Draymond Green situation will be interesting to follow, but I would be affraid as hell to give him any substantial long term money. Although it would be just an ultimate gamble with Irving on a long term deal.

You also have Hardy as a pretty decent sweetener.  I'd be fine using Maxi to get to an upgrade too.  As much as I love him and as great as he fits in our system, he just can't soak up enough minutes and health is a concern.

Draymond will be 33 next year and you'd have to entice him to opt out of the last year of his deal (27.5M).  I don't think anyone is going to offer him a max contract like he wants but to get him to leave you'd need to offer him big money, years or both.  I love Draymond and think he would be perfect here or rather would have been perfect here a few years (of his) ago.  You'd probably have to give him 3/90M to even get a conversation started.  Not sure I'd want to do anywhere near that considering his age and with a healthy fear that he is a product of the GSW system.  Then again, I was shocked the last time that Horford opted out and he is still really productive.

[omahen]

Draymond will be 33 next year and you'd have to entice him to opt out of the last year of his deal (27.5M). 

The only realistic way to get him is actually the opposite. He opts in and you trade with GSW. Requirement is of course that GSW is aware he is gone (doesn't pick his option) unless they trade him. Mavs can then extend him.

[LukaMVP]

trash and 1st round pick for draymond lets do it. getting rid of some bad contracts should be worth giving up a 2nd round pick, and dray has a lot to bring on court. hope we get some extra assets back if we have to throw in any useful players like maxi.

[mvossman]

trash and 1st round pick for draymond lets do it. getting rid of some bad contracts should be worth giving up a 2nd round pick, and dray has a lot to bring on court. hope we get some extra assets back if we have to throw in any useful players like maxi.

I realize we are in win now mode and I can see the fit with Draymond, but I would prefer not to spend our last remaining assets on a 33 year old.

[Chicagojk]

Mavs have their two stars.   It at least makes this season salvageable.    I didn't think there was any chance we would be able to get a star the level of Kyrie with the assets we had.   Now, can we resign him and keep Kyrie focused on basketball?

If so, how do we build the roster around Luka and Kyrie and do it quickly.   You add the right two solid guys and this is a team that no one wants to play.    The question can they be ahead of the rest of the GM's in the league on identifying and securing talent?

[Mavs2021]

Saric 10/4 in just 15 MPG shooting a ridiculous 60/43/94 at OKC.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

If so, how do we build the roster around Luka and Kyrie and do it quickly.   You add the right two solid guys and this is a team that no one wants to play.    The question can they be ahead of the rest of the GM's in the league on identifying and securing talent?

It feels like we're basically going to have to build a starting front court this offseason which is going to be really difficult.

To me you, next year's playoff rotation that you already have on roster looks like Luka/Kyrie/Hardy(hopefully) as ball handlers Green as one of the wings and either Bullock/Hardaway as another and we just have Maxi as a bench frontcourt player.

We're basically going to have to use Bertans and one of Bullock or Hardaway to pair with our 2 FRPs and 2 SRPs to find a big wing and starting center, ideally two players that both pair with Maxi in different ways.  That's a realllllllly tall order but at this point it feels like we are in full mortgage the future mode so why not just use every piece of ammo you have.

[Mikelorenzo]

Sure 2 FRP can get us what we need..
Grant for FRP+salary space..

Vandervilt+Beasley+DLo for Lightly Protected FRP+Expiring (Russ)

DWhite for expiring(JRich+Langford+FRP protected)

Royce/FRP Protected+ Salary Space

MBrogdon for Nesmith+FRP+Evil Counter(Theis)

JPoelt for Birch(bad contract)+FRP+SRP...


just a few examples of recent trades, in our price range for guys that would fit the bill.. we are 2 good roleplayers away from fearsome.. 1 of Turner/Capella/Gafford + 1 from Caruso/Royce/DFS/Barnes (to name a few)...

[SleepingHero]

https://twitter.com/GrantAfseth/status/1...Xjj6gtAAAA

[Chicagojk]

I just wish the mavs had one more big defender.  Even a short term solution.  That small addition could make a huge advantage in a playoff series.  They just feel like 1-2 guys short.  But just one more could be enough.  Maybe.  Just not sure they are going to be able to get stops with the roster as is.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I just wish the mavs had one more big defender.  Even a short term solution.  That small addition could make a huge advantage in a playoff series.  They just feel like 1-2 guys short.  But just one more could be enough.  Maybe.  Just not sure they are going to be able to get stops with the roster as is.

Right now the only solace is that nobody in the West seems to be able to get stops but we're definitely worse at defending the paint than I can ever remember.

[Chicagojk]

I agree.  He needs the minutes to play through this rough spot but he needs to be more visible on the court than he has been recently.  If he is getting close to 30 minutes a night, I would like to see averages around 12 points per game, 5 rebounds and 3 assists type of #'s.

https://twitter.com/townbrad/status/1633...81794?s=46&t=iwQP5yZoJF3Ulzfb9MH7Cg

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I agree.  He needs the minutes to play through this rough spot but he needs to be more visible on the court than he has been recently.  If he is getting close to 30 minutes a night, I would like to see averages around 12 points per game, 5 rebounds and 3 assists type of #'s.

https://twitter.com/townbrad/status/1633...81794?s=46&t=iwQP5yZoJF3Ulzfb9MH7Cg

This also depends on the matchups he's facing. If he's guarding another equally good or better offensive player and defender, his offense will struggle. But I'd have to say he's young and still learning. He's their best defender and it ain't even close. Just have to hope his offense will come around to match the way he defends.  Needs to go back to the lab this summer and keep improving his shot and moves.  The long NBA season is very short on practice time.

[SwisherPrice]

Green is not suited for the DFS role that people thought he could fill. Kidd needs to start Holiday...not sure why he went away from that. Holiday is more of your traditional 3 and D role player. Green is better off the bench where he can play faster and freely with THJ and Wood against the other team's 2nd unit. He will still get 25-30 minutes per game. Much better use of personnel that way.

[KillerLeft]

Green is not suited for the DFS role that people thought he could fill. Kidd needs to start Holiday...not sure why he went away from that. Holiday is more of your traditional 3 and D role player. Green is better off the bench where he can play faster and freely with THJ and Wood against the other team's 2nd unit. He will still get 25-30 minutes per game. Much better use of personnel that way.

I’m not sure that I agree he can’t be a starter, but I definitely agree he’s not a replacement for DFS. Green’s game is based on speed and frenetic activity. I think he’s wasted having to mix it up in the paint against longer forwards. His value is about getting him matched up with someone of a similar size or even smaller, since he has the feet to keep up with them.

I guess that means that Green/Bullock are a bad combo.

[Chicagojk]

https://www.dmagazine.com/sports/2023/03...den-hardy/

[SwisherPrice]

The offense just operates much better when there are 3 scoring guards in the rotation. Hardy needs to be developed as the 3rd one ASAP. That's how the Mavs were able to succeed with Luka/Brunson/Dinwiddie carrying the offense last season. It's obvious after almost 10 games that no matter what Luka and Kyrie do by themselves, opposing teams are not scared and that's including some non-playoff teams like Indiana, Utah, and New Orleans.

It's the same problem they've had all season...they just upgraded Dinwiddie with Kyrie but even then, it's still not enough.