ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[Chicagojk]

Even with Wood, we needed another playable 4/5 big.  Without him, it is a glaring hole.   Same thing with a third creator.   Wright wasn't suited up last game but do we really expect him to play important minutes when needed?  We are getting way too comfortable playing Luka all these heavy minutes with no breaks.   That needs to change.

Unless they have a move lined up (ha), they need to invest in a 10 day to at least provide insurance for one of those two holes.

[Chicagojk]

McGee's birthday was yesterday.  Scary to think what he looks like when he slows down......

Please, please, please....have him sit next to Mark for the next 2.5 years.

[MaxiThreeba]

I have Mavs depression setting in.  For some reason I spent most of my morning drive thinking about the Mavs and how they could improve and what their realistic paths were to contention via roster building.

It was a struggle.

Besides crossing my fingers and hoping they extended CWood, Hardy turned into Jordan Poole and Green turned into Keldon Johnson...I couldn't come up with much.

This is in large part due to the mess of a roster they've put together.  It's also due to the fact that I couldn't even think of creative ways to hit reset because Cuban wouldn't do any of it.  He won't take on money for picks/prospects.  He won't admit any mistakes.  He won't give up current production for future upside.  He won't stay above the LT.  He is the one thing worse than a cheap owner....he's a cheap owner that meddles.

Of course I will keep watching and hoping, but damn if I don't feel like this is a worse situation than I ever could have pictured after they walked off the floor vs the Warriors in the WCF.

[F Gump]

Even with Wood, we needed another playable 4/5 big.  Without him, it is a glaring hole.   Same thing with a third creator.   Wright wasn't suited up last game but do we really expect him to play important minutes when needed?  We are getting way too comfortable playing Luka all these heavy minutes with no breaks.   That needs to change.

Unless they have a move lined up (ha), they need to invest in a 10 day to at least provide insurance for one of those two holes.

Respectfully, solutions to those holes are very unlikely to be unemployed and available. Instead, the guys waiting for a call will be players who are a step down from what they already have -- ie, not as good as McGee or Wright/Ntilikina.

Would that be "insurance" if you had it?

[vfromlmf]

Interesting comments last week from Jeff Van Gundy about the Mavs roster. 

He noted "legitimate positional size" as something that's very hard to find and teams are looking for.

He likes the Dallas backcourt and noted Luka, Dinwiddie, THJ and Green as guys who won't get played off the floor. Notice he said backcourt.

He said Dallas needs to continue to work on their front court. They need playmaking/talent and size on the wing/forward and center positions.

Dallas currently has Dorian, THJ, Bullock and Green on the wing and only DFS has "legit positional size," likewise Kleber, Powell and Wood are all undersized at center. 

As we approach the trade deadline names like Quickley are interesting but I tend to agree with JVG. Dallas needs size, not a Brunson replacement.

[Kammrath]

As we approach the trade deadline names like Quickley are interesting but I tend to agree with JVG. Dallas needs size, not a Brunson replacement.

Quickley is 6'3" with a 6'8+" wingspan. He plays way longer than JB and is the kind of point of attack defender the Mavs need.

[mvossman]

Interesting comments last week from Jeff Van Gundy about the Mavs roster. 

He noted "legitimate positional size" as something that's very hard to find and teams are looking for.

He likes the Dallas backcourt and noted Luka, Dinwiddie, THJ and Green as guys who won't get played off the floor. Notice he said backcourt.

He said Dallas needs to continue to work on their front court. They need playmaking/talent and size on the wing/forward and center positions.

Dallas currently has Dorian, THJ, Bullock and Green on the wing and only DFS has "legit positional size," likewise Kleber, Powell and Wood are all undersized at center. 

As we approach the trade deadline names like Quickley are interesting but I tend to agree with JVG. Dallas needs size, not a Brunson replacement.

For a team that wants to play a switch everything defense, I'm not sure bigger centers is the answer.  We could use more size at the PF position (especially with Maxi out) but we are also hurting on both point of attack defense and playmaking and Quickley would help with both.

[omahen]

Quickley

Quickley has one more year of his rookie deal. He averaged like 20 ppg while he was starting and getting starter level minutes. I don't think there is any way Knicks let him go just to dump Fourniers contract or similar. Knicks have excelletn cap space position. No significant players to resign. If they need cap saving they just don't excersice team option on Rose. Fournier will be expiring (team option) waiting for the star trade opportunity. 

At least one lightly protected pick is the price fro Quickley, imho. Another player where you are buying when his price is at highest up to now and might not get higher. I think Mavs missed the opportunity for this one.

[KillerLeft]

Quickley has one more year of his rookie deal. He averaged like 20 ppg while he was starting and getting starter level minutes. I don't think there is any way Knicks let him go just to dump Fourniers contract or similar. Knicks have excelletn cap space position. No significant players to resign. If they need cap saving they just don't excersice team option on Rose. Fournier will be expiring (team option) waiting for the star trade opportunity. 

At least one lightly protected pick is the price fro Quickley, imho. Another player where you are buying when his price is at highest up to now and might not get higher. I think Mavs missed the opportunity for this one.

I agree. The guy you can probably get is Rose, but who'd be excited by that?

[omahen]

I agree. The guy you can probably get is Rose, but who'd be excited by that?

And Reddish. Perhaps Toppin, since Randle is again playing like almost a star. No way I would pay for the privilige of half a season of Reddish (If Rui was 3 SRP, Reddish is one at best). But I would pay those couple of second rounders for Toppin, if NY likes Bullock so much.

[mvossman]

I have Mavs depression setting in.  For some reason I spent most of my morning drive thinking about the Mavs and how they could improve and what their realistic paths were to contention via roster building.

It was a struggle.

Besides crossing my fingers and hoping they extended CWood, Hardy turned into Jordan Poole and Green turned into Keldon Johnson...I couldn't come up with much.

This is in large part due to the mess of a roster they've put together.  It's also due to the fact that I couldn't even think of creative ways to hit reset because Cuban wouldn't do any of it.  He won't take on money for picks/prospects.  He won't admit any mistakes.  He won't give up current production for future upside.  He won't stay above the LT.  He is the one thing worse than a cheap owner....he's a cheap owner that meddles.

Of course I will keep watching and hoping, but damn if I don't feel like this is a worse situation than I ever could have pictured after they walked off the floor vs the Warriors in the WCF.

It could have been a lot worse.  Letting Brunson walk and the McGee signing were bad, but the Wood trade and his subsequent play has been a big plus (hopefully they don't screw that up), Green could easily not have progressed as well as he has this season and Hardy is looking like a promising second round pick.  Those last three things could not have happened and this thing would be so much worse.

I'm not feeling the doom and gloom yet for this season.  This team has gone through a rough patch injury wise and managed to stay around 500.  I think if we can get healthy and maybe make a small TDL move we could finish top 5 and get a series win.  

Tax teams don't take on bad salary for picks, so that was never going to happen.  The only bad contracts right now are Bertans and McGee and they could both be stretch waived if necessary and we will be in possession of all of our picks in the offseason.  I don't even think the roster is that much of a mess.  It just needs a couple of upgrades that we will actually have the assets get soon.

[KillerLeft]

I'm not feeling the doom and gloom yet for this season.  This team has gone through a rough patch injury wise and managed to stay around 500.  I think if we can get healthy and maybe make a small TDL move we could finish top 5 and get a series win.  

Tax teams don't take on bad salary for picks, so that was never going to happen.  The only bad contracts right now are Bertans and McGee and they could both be stretch waived if necessary and we will be in possession of all of our picks in the offseason.  I don't even think the roster is that much of a mess.  It just needs a couple of upgrades that we will actually have the assets get soon.

I'm coming around to this thinking lately, too. 

It could be a lot worse. The roster doesn't bother me nearly as much as the amount of faith I've lost in Kidd's abilities, but even that might end up being better than I think right now. 

I think they're a little guilty of not approaching the early season with much fight, hunger or professionalism, and that sucks, don't get me wrong, but it's somewhat attributable to WCF hangover, new contracts, etc. Then, about the time they seemed to decide it was time to start winning they just got snakebitten with one injury after another, to the point where they've just had no chance. It's definitely possible that it will be too little too late by the time everyone is back and the team works itself back to 100% (if that ever happens), but the Western Conference is doing them a huge favor by dishing out issues to most of the other teams, too. Honestly, if you're not either a Grizzlies or a Nuggets fan right now you're dealing with the same depression Mavs fans are going through. 

It's not a given, but it definitely won't shock me if the Mavs figure things out and turn this into a respectable season.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

It could have been a lot worse.  Letting Brunson walk and the McGee signing were bad, but the Wood trade and his subsequent play has been a big plus (hopefully they don't screw that up), Green could easily not have progressed as well as he has this season and Hardy is looking like a promising second round pick.  Those last three things could not have happened and this thing would be so much worse.

I'm not feeling the doom and gloom yet for this season.  This team has gone through a rough patch injury wise and managed to stay around 500.  I think if we can get healthy and maybe make a small TDL move we could finish top 5 and get a series win.  

Tax teams don't take on bad salary for picks, so that was never going to happen.  The only bad contracts right now are Bertans and McGee and they could both be stretch waived if necessary and we will be in possession of all of our picks in the offseason.  I don't even think the roster is that much of a mess.  It just needs a couple of upgrades that we will actually have the assets get soon.

I'm glad you're optimistic, because I'm not on the rest of the season, unless they make a major move.They need more  size, wing depth and a ball handler. There are a couple of teams that have already leap frogged them, like the Kings. And some have key players in and out their lineup with injuries specifically N.O.  I also don't think they have the assets to make such a move without giving up picks and a player like Green who I would not include,  He's exactly the type of wing defender that they need. Nico has his hands tied trying to improve this team with Cuban's blessing.

[omahen]

if you're not either a Grizzlies or a Nuggets fan right now you're dealing with the same depression Mavs fans are going through.

Personally, I think both teams mentioned are regular season teams. Teams I am most affraid in the West are healthy Clippers and healthy GSW. I don't think Mavs can beat them.

Other than that, I think Mavs are exactly where they belong. Somewhere in that 4-6 range. Good when a lot of things go right and bad when some things go wrong. Problem I have is, that I see much cleaner path to improve in next season or two for several teams that are quite close to Mavs now. OKC, Memphis, Pelicans, Phoenix, even GSW with their endless payroll spending.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I'm not feeling the doom and gloom yet for this season.

I think a lot of the disappointment I've been noticing has all been related to expectations.  Just talking to some buddies who don't follow the nuance that folks on this board would follow, the expectation seemed to be "this is a western conference finals team" as opposed to "Brunson just walked for nothing and we're still paying for the Porzingis trade so of course this is going to be a small step back sort of year while we recoop assets unless we totally mortgage the future to make Luka slightly happier for this one playoff run that will mostly be a lost cause anyway because we even our best offer in season is still a half measured move at best that would make the second half of this decade the most miserable one you can imagine".

This team reeked of a 45-50 win team that landed in the 4-6 range with a puncher's chance to win a playoff round because of Luka.  It's tough on the eyes and frustrating in the moment but this has kind of gone how I expected it so far.  I don't want to be painted too much of an optimist because I recognize that this current roster and the current assets are in an awful place and Cuban has been cheap and made some head scratching decisions but the main thing that has led to all of this is how much we paid to get Luka and KP together and most people applauded mortgaging everything to do that at the time.  Well we missed on that and we're paying for those sins but we're very close to getting a clean slate back and roster management/changes will become much easier again assuming we just make a move with our smaller assets this deadline.

To me the western conference is broken into a handful of tiers in terms of assets for this trade deadline.

Already good with all their assets plus others to get even better:

MEM
NOP

Already good/decent with all/most their assets to get even better:

PHX
GSW (still owe a protected first to MEM)
SAC (they do owe a heavily protected first to ATL)
PDX (they have a weird reverse protection going on so their draft capital is kind of tied up depending on how this season goes.  I'm also not sure if they're good or decent)

Improving teams loaded with assets:

UTH
OKC

Great teams that are completely tied to their current roster without much flexibility:

DEN

Good/decent teams completely tied to their current roster without much flexibility:

LAC
DAL
MIN (much more tied to their roster than all these others)

Bad teams completely tied to their current roster without much flexibility:

LAL

Tanking:

SAS 
HOU

We move out of that tier this offseason. This season is a wash and that's awful for a fanbase to sit through when you have someone like Luka and it's also awful for Luka to sit through but we'll be able to build team Luka 2.0 after the draft with some lessons learned from the KP miss.  I'm not saying that it's 100% that Cuban and Nico will make the right decisions and build a great contender this time around but to me it kind of feels like the first time we'll actually be able try again since Luka's rookie season.

[KillerLeft]

Personally, I think both teams mentioned are regular season teams. Teams I am most affraid in the West are healthy Clippers and healthy GSW. I don't think Mavs can beat them.

Other than that, I think Mavs are exactly where they belong. Somewhere in that 4-6 range. Good when a lot of things go right and bad when some things go wrong. Problem I have is, that I see much cleaner path to improve in next season or two for several teams that are quite close to Mavs now. OKC, Memphis, Pelicans, Phoenix, even GSW with their endless payroll spending.

I don't disagree with much of that...just trying to point out that "the regular season" is not going well for several teams, not just ours. I have been picking the Clipps to win the championship for like 4 years, at this point. I'm not sure they're ever going to actually become the team they can be.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

even GSW with their endless payroll spending

Everyone has their limits though and even Draymond says the writing is on the wall for him.  I think people underestimate how much that defense relied on him and I think losing him is probably going to keep GSW from being a contender again in the Curry era unless you believe in those youngsters as either future rotation players or valuable assets which personally I don't at this point.  They still got this year to get healthy and make another run though....

[Chicagojk]

Cato had an article in the Athletic about the prioritize now or the future.  some parts below


https://theathletic.com/4115589/2023/01/...ka-doncic/



“If it’s with this personnel, then you’ve got to keep asking or demanding for those guys to play defense,” Mavericks coach Jason Kidd said afterward. “It’s not just the offensive end.”

Kidd’s quote stood out for its harsh assessment of the team’s performance. But those first few words — “if it’s with this personnel” — feel even more notable to the bigger picture because Kidd often references Twitter discourse or hints at current storylines when he speaks to the media. If Dončić desires to see the team’s roster change in the coming weeks, he likely wouldn’t be the only one within the Mavericks organization.
*****************
It’s difficult to find balance between a future-focused approach and the pressures of the season that remains. Tim Hardaway Jr., a player who the Mavericks openly looked to trade last year prior to his season-ending injury, is an example of that.  (my note, I wasn't aware they were trying to trade prior to his injury as well)
***************
Reggie Bullock  can be viewed in a similar situation as Hardaway: someone who has been crucial to the team’s success in the past, but almost certainly isn’t a long-term participant in the team’s future. Both him and Hardaway, if traded, might cause the team to be worse this season even if it helps the long-term vision of the front office’s attempts to build a title contender around Dončić.
*********************

Yes, LeVert is obviously talented, but he’s been an inefficient scorer for most of his career. Dallas could trade Hardaway for a 30-game look at whether LeVert fits better next to Dončić than he has at previous stops of his career. But if he doesn’t, Dallas has a real chance to be a worse team in its final 30 games, and LeVert’s expiring contract means he leaves the team this summer for nothing.

************************

There are infinite combinations of players and trade structures that the Mavericks could and have already considered – which we’ll continuing talking more about later this week. But while the need for change might be obvious to any fan or Hollywood movie director watching this team, the actual decisions this team must make are complicated by this present-future conundrum.

And if the team doesn’t feel like moves exist that would help now and later, it might have to choose just one.

[ItsGoTime]

Can I just say, had we kept Harrison Barnes, we would not be in such a bad position right now.

[Chicagojk]

I just can't believe how poor roster planning is that they are not searching for another creator.    They are already short as is, but have gotten around it by playing Din and Luka outrageous minutes (ouch).  But when one is out, they have not chance.   For a team trying to make the playoffs, I can't believe they are letting this slide.    

Center to a lesser degree.  They were killed on the boards last night.   Wood being out needs to be factored in and also Maxi to a lesser extent, but McGee being unplayable should get this front office looking for stop gap solutions.   Tougher done than said, but still.   

We are in the tax, but somehow don't have a third creator, lack bigs, and wing defenders.  That is pretty impressive, if not sad.