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[dirkfansince1998]

No, not all the time. However, Jokic positions himself on the floor like a center a lot more often than Luka does (or needs to) when generating offense, since almost all of Luka's offense is generated from the perimeter or thereabouts. Since this MVP race is between Jokic vs Luka, not Jokic vs more traditional Centers of old, I think it's important that the MVP voters keep it in mind.  Would you agree?

Then there are other advantages that Centers have on defense due to being closer to the basket that adds to their "efficiency ratings", is it not?

Are we also doing this for guards who have advantages over bigs when it comes to scoring/playmaking volume because they handle the ball more than other players. What about usage and ball dominance? Should we count screen assists instead to make up for the difference?

[RGP1981]

Are we also doing this for guards who have advantages over bigs when it comes to scoring/playmaking volume because they handle the ball more than other players. What about usage and ball dominance? Should we count screen assists instead to make up for the difference?

It's a good point, but the difference is...

- You can put the ball in a Guard's hands as much as you want, but he will not be able to score and play-make at an MVP level unless he has the talent.

- Whereas, any and every Center regardless of their talent, has an advantage over other positions when it comes to "efficiency", due to their position and location on the court.

Anyway, my point is that it seems like the main talking point among the talking heads is the "advanced stats". It's the main thing they seem to be focusing on, while I feel it should be one of many equally weighted considerations. So if they're giving so much extra weight to Advanced Stats, then they need to keep in mind the inherent or "baked in" advantage that a Center has there.

Jokic would also be a worthy winner, but I feel like Luka has carried his weaker team more and performed at a slightly higher level on offense.

Another thing that bugs me is I've heard some talk about how Luka shouldn't win because of the Mavericks "lowly" position in the WC Standings. The Mavericks are 6th in the NBA with 50-32. Yet Jokic won MVP in 2020-21 when the Nuggets were 5th in the NBA with 47-25, and in 2021-22 when the Nuggets were 10th in the NBA with 48-24.

[dirkfansince1998]

It's a good point, but the difference is...

- You can put the ball in a Guard's hands as much as you want, but he will not be able to score and play-make at an MVP level unless he has the talent.

- Whereas, any and every Center regardless of their talent, has an advantage over other positions when it comes to "efficiency", due to their position and location on the court.

Anyway, my point is that it seems like the main talking point among the talking heads is the "advanced stats". It's the main thing they seem to be focusing on, while I feel it should be one of many equally weighted considerations. So if they're giving so much extra weight to Advanced Stats, then they need to keep in mind the inherent or "baked in" advantage that a Center has there.

Jokic would also be a worthy winner, but I feel like Luka has carried his weaker team more and performed at a slightly higher level on offense.

Another thing that bugs me is I've heard some talk about how Luka shouldn't win because of the Mavericks "lowly" position in the WC Standings. The Mavericks are 6th in the NBA with 50-32. Yet Jokic won MVP in 2020-21 when the Nuggets were 5th in the NBA with 47-25, and in 2021-22 when the Nuggets were 10th in the NBA with 48-24.

Once again could turn this around. The efficiency advantage comes with bigger responsibilities on defense. Jokic has to anchor the defense. He cannot hide in the corner. Doesn't get the benefit of easier matchups.
Honestly feels like people are trying to make a case for Luka against better knowledge. Luka had a great season. Problem for him and other contenders is that Jokic has produced four consecutive seasons on an all time great level. Far better than the average MVP season. I get why people argue that Luka deserves the MVP award. He had a better season than many MVPs in the past but that's not the question. He needs to be better than Jokic.

[fifteenth]

Well, not all the time, and certainly less than your usual Center. However, Jokic positions himself on the floor like a Center a lot more often than Luka does (or needs to) when generating offense, as almost all of Luka's offense is generated from the perimeter or thereabouts. So since this MVP race is between Jokic vs Luka, not Jokic vs more traditional type of Centers or Centers of old, I think it's important that the MVP voters keep it in mind.  Would you agree?

Then there are other advantages that Centers have on defense due to being closer to the basket that add to their PER, BPM, WS, VORP, etc too, is it not?

I don't think MVP voters typically lean on advanced statistics enough that centers end up with an advantage. You could make a case that points, assists, rebounds, team success, years of sustained high-level play, all influence voters more. 

df98 enjoys digging into the numbers and makes a good statistical case for Jokic. But that doesn't mean that the advanced statistical case is the only case to be made for Jokic. 

He averaged 26/9/12 this season while shooting 58% from the floor and 36% from three. He's one of the best shooters in the league, one of the best passers in the league and one of the best rebounders. He's the fulcrum of one of the best teams in the league. He makes insane plays at important times. He just led his team to 57 wins in a stacked Western Conference. And he's consistently played like this for years now. 

Jokic is one of the handful of best players in the league, has been so constantly for years, and he leads one of the top teams in the league. Those are the dudes that get voted MVP. 

I'm not even a Jokic fan. I want Luka to win MVP. But these arguments against Jokic are just silly.

It seems like you guys making these arguments are just grasping for straws, trying to elevate Luka by downplaying Jokic. That's silly and not intellectually honest. By all means, make the case for Luka! I want Luka to be the MVP! But don't try to make the case for Luka by coming up with a bad case against Jokic. 

"He's a center, so... advanced stats..." is a bad argument against Jokic for MVP.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I don't think MVP voters typically lean on advanced statistics enough that centers end up with an advantage. You could make a case that points, assists, rebounds, team success, years of sustained high-level play, all influence voters more. 

df98 enjoys digging into the numbers and makes a good statistical case for Jokic. But that doesn't mean that the advanced statistical case is the only case to be made for Jokic. 

He averaged 26/9/12 this season while shooting 58% from the floor and 36% from three. He's one of the best shooters in the league, one of the best passers in the league and one of the best rebounders. He's the fulcrum of one of the best teams in the league. He makes insane plays at important times. He just led his team to 57 wins in a stacked Western Conference. And he's consistently played like this for years now. 

Jokic is one of the handful of best players in the league, has been so constantly for years, and he leads one of the top teams in the league. Those are the dudes that get voted MVP. 

I'm not even a Jokic fan. I want Luka to win MVP. But these arguments against Jokic are just silly.

It seems like you guys making these arguments are just grasping for straws, trying to elevate Luka by downplaying Jokic. That's silly and not intellectually honest. By all means, make the case for Luka! I want Luka to be the MVP! But don't try to make the case for Luka by coming up with a bad case against Jokic. 

"He's a center, so... advanced stats..." is a bad argument against Jokic for MVP.

I agree. Luka will win his share of MVP's  but what the Joker does from the center position just doesn't compare. Denver runs their offense through the center position. Let that sink in.

[The Jom]

. . . Jokic has to anchor the defense. He cannot hide in the corner. Doesn't get the benefit of easier matchups. . . . 

I don’t believe this.

[KillerLeft]

I'm traveling this week for work, and have been absent often these past couple of weeks getting ready for the big upcoming work event, so I might not have the most up to date pulse of the conversation here, but...

Jokic is currently the best player in the NBA and it's not particularly close. We should be talking about him winning his 4th MVP in a row.

[dirkfansince1998]

I don’t believe this.

Thankfully we don't have to rely on beliefs. We have tracking for almost everything. including matchup difficulty.

[DallasMaverick]

I'm traveling this week for work, and have been absent often these past couple of weeks getting ready for the big upcoming work event, so I might not have the most up to date pulse of the conversation here, but...

Jokic is currently the best player in the NBA and it's not particularly close. We should be talking about him winning his 4th MVP in a row.

This seems to be a pretty popular opinion.

[SleepingHero]

I'm traveling this week for work, and have been absent often these past couple of weeks getting ready for the big upcoming work event, so I might not have the most up to date pulse of the conversation here, but...

Jokic is currently the best player in the NBA and it's not particularly close. We should be talking about him winning his 4th MVP in a row.

Historically that's an insane feat. To put it in context, only 3 players ever were able to win 3x MVP's in a row and those were Larry Bird (84, 85, 86), Wilt Chamberlain (67, 68, 69) and Bill Russell (61, 62, 63). 

To win 3 in a row would be putting Jokic into a category that seems a bit higher than he deserves at this point. By the time Larry won his 3rd MVP he had already been 2x NBA champion and was on his way to a 3rd. Both Wilt and Russell were in a totally different NBA than today and it's hard to draw parallels from those two to Jokic. 

To suggest Jokic should be on his way to 4 straight MVP's is silly to me. Literally has never been done before. He's been incredible the last 4 years don't get me wrong. But he has not even been close to the level of other pantheons in the history of the league like Jabbar, Jordan, and Magic.

Clarifying by the way, Jokic is a deserving MVP. He had a crazy season. But so did Luka. Historically to be a 3x MVP winner you have to be on another stratosphere of player with multiple championships underneath your belt. Only Wilt was an exception to that when he won his 3rd but there were only 14 teams in the league at that point and he had just averaged 24/24/9 playing 47mpg and all 82 games. Again, hard to draw parallels here. Larry is the best comparison and Jokic hasn't reached that level yet.

Given the historical context and the benchmarks Luka hit this year, it's hard not to award him his 1st imo. The biggest reason to me why Jokic is going to get it this year is because Embiid got a pity award last year from voter fatigue and embarrassed the league by getting ousted in the playoffs while Jokic went on to win his 1st ring.

[mvossman]

Historically that's an insane feat. To put it in context, only 3 players ever were able to win 3x MVP's in a row and those were Larry Bird (84, 85, 86), Wilt Chamberlain (67, 68, 69) and Bill Russell (61, 62, 63). 

To win 3 in a row would be putting Jokic into a category that seems a bit higher than he deserves at this point. By the time Larry won his 3rd MVP he had already been 2x NBA champion and was on his way to a 3rd. Both Wilt and Russell were in a totally different NBA than today and it's hard to draw parallels from those two to Jokic. 

To suggest Jokic should be on his way to 4 straight MVP's is silly to me. Literally has never been done before. He's been incredible the last 4 years don't get me wrong. But he has not even been close to the level of other pantheons in the history of the league like Jabbar, Jordan, and Magic.

Clarifying by the way, Jokic is a deserving MVP. He had a crazy season. But so did Luka. Historically to be a 3x MVP winner you have to be on another stratosphere of player with multiple championships underneath your belt. Only Wilt was an exception to that when he won his 3rd but there were only 14 teams in the league at that point and he had just averaged 24/24/9 playing 47mpg and all 82 games. Again, hard to draw parallels here. Larry is the best comparison and Jokic hasn't reached that level yet.

Given the historical context and the benchmarks Luka hit this year, it's hard not to award him his 1st imo. The biggest reason to me why Jokic is going to get it this year is because Embiid got a pity award last year from voter fatigue and embarrassed the league by getting ousted in the playoffs while Jokic went on to win his 1st ring.

I'm not that terribly interested in the MVP narrative and the concept you can't win so many in a row because only the greats do that.  The bottom line is that he has been the best player in the NBA over the last 4 years and its not close.  I am really surprised to see multiple folks around here discounting his impact (or considering him ineligible altogether) because he is a center.

[SleepingHero]

I'm not that terribly interested in the MVP narrative and the concept you can't win so many in a row because only the greats do that.  The bottom line is that he has been the best player in the NBA over the last 4 years and its not close.  I am really surprised to see multiple folks around here discounting his impact (or considering him ineligible altogether) because he is a center.

I suppose I just give more weight to the history of the league and how MVPs usually were doled out. Jokic individually hasn't been better than Bird/Magic/Jordan/Kareem when they were in the league in their primes (although he's been close!) and they weren't able to win *fill in the blank* amount of MVP's in a row at the time because the league rewarded a new guy every so often because more than one guy in the league usually has an MVP type season every year.

I don't see why the media is all of a sudden is going away from this precedent as soon as Luka has an MVP worthy season because they feel bad about following said precedent last year when they didn't want to give Jokic his 3rd MVP in a row. 

It's just consistency is all I ask. In all of my posts I've said Jokic is a worthy MVP and I don't care if he won it. He had a fantastic season. But Luka also had a historic season and I truthfully thinks he should be getting the award this year based on history.

[RGP1981]

I am really surprised to see multiple folks around here discounting his impact (or considering him ineligible altogether) because he is a center.

Who is doing this and where? I did not discount his impact (or consider him ineligible altogether) because he is a center... at all!

What I said is this:

1) It seems to me like the MVP Voters are giving extra weight to advanced stats and "efficiency" in particular. I do not know whether they're doing this so as to look like they are "smart" voters... but it seems that way to me (rightly or wrongly).

2) Centers have an extra advantage in "efficiency" stats over other positions, on offense and defense, both... due to playing closer to the basket. It's simply what it is. I think the MVP Voters should keep this in mind. Besides, Luka's stats are very efficient for the position and role he plays too.

3) Jokic would also be a worthy winner, but I feel like Luka has carried his weaker team more and performed at a slightly higher level on offense.

4) I've also heard some say that Luka shouldn't win because of the Mavericks "lowly" position in the WC Standings. The Mavericks are 6th in the NBA with 50-32. Yet Jokic won MVP in 2020-21 when the Nuggets were 5th in the NBA with 47-25, and in 2021-22 when the Nuggets were 10th in the NBA with 48-24.

[mvossman]

I suppose I just give more weight to the history of the league and how MVPs usually were doled out. Jokic individually hasn't been better than Bird/Magic/Jordan/Kareem when they were in the league in their primes (although he's been close!) and they weren't able to win *fill in the blank* amount of MVP's in a row at the time because the league rewarded a new guy every so often because more than one guy in the league usually has an MVP type season every year.

I don't see why the media is all of a sudden is going away from this precedent as soon as Luka has an MVP worthy season because they feel bad about following said precedent last year when they didn't want to give Jokic his 3rd MVP in a row. 

It's just consistency is all I ask. In all of my posts I've said Jokic is a worthy MVP and I don't care if he won it. He had a fantastic season. But Luka also had a historic season and I truthfully thinks he should be getting the award this year based on history.

That was my bad for responding to your post rather than simply posting a comment.  I don't have a hat in the ring regarding MVP, I just think that Killer's post that you were responding to was less about advocating for 4 MVPs in a row, and more incredulity that folks are discounting Jokic because he is a center.

[Jason Terry]

Luka losing the MVP and also all the ballots already in for SGA to win………..This is the best thing that could ever happen to us. Especially with how the bracket played out. Part 3 vs Clips. Luka vs. SGA round 2 would be epic.

[fifteenth]

Luka losing the MVP and also all the ballots already in for SGA to win………..This is the best thing that could ever happen to us. Especially with how the bracket played out. Part 3 vs Clips. Luka vs. SGA round 2 would be epic.

Nice. Extra motivation for Luka! I like it.

[omahen]

Historically that's an insane feat. To put it in context, only 3 players ever were able to win 3x MVP's in a row and those were Larry Bird (84, 85, 86), Wilt Chamberlain (67, 68, 69) and Bill Russell (61, 62, 63). 

To win 3 in a row would be putting Jokic into a category that seems a bit higher than he deserves at this point. By the time Larry won his 3rd MVP he had already been 2x NBA champion and was on his way to a 3rd. Both Wilt and Russell were in a totally different NBA than today and it's hard to draw parallels from those two to Jokic. 

To suggest Jokic should be on his way to 4 straight MVP's is silly to me. Literally has never been done before. He's been incredible the last 4 years don't get me wrong. But he has not even been close to the level of other pantheons in the history of the league like Jabbar, Jordan, and Magic.

Clarifying by the way, Jokic is a deserving MVP. He had a crazy season. But so did Luka. Historically to be a 3x MVP winner you have to be on another stratosphere of player with multiple championships underneath your belt. Only Wilt was an exception to that when he won his 3rd but there were only 14 teams in the league at that point and he had just averaged 24/24/9 playing 47mpg and all 82 games. Again, hard to draw parallels here. Larry is the best comparison and Jokic hasn't reached that level yet.

Given the historical context and the benchmarks Luka hit this year, it's hard not to award him his 1st imo. The biggest reason to me why Jokic is going to get it this year is because Embiid got a pity award last year from voter fatigue and embarrassed the league by getting ousted in the playoffs while Jokic went on to win his 1st ring.

I think the mistake voters did last season will be exactly the reason why they will "play it safe" and award it to Jokic. They can't risk of giving it to Luka with Jokic than again destroying everyone in playoffs. I think if there will be a surprise it will be more likely with SGA. OKC finished first in the West.

[Chicagojk]

Only Mavs award by Hollinger is Luka at #3 in the MVP ranking. I really don't care. SGA had a real good season too. I am just really glad that Luka is back to where he should have been. The elite of the elite. Even better...there are a very few guys who I would choose in the biggest of big games. Add that to his talent, and that makes him really special.

I do wonder if DJJ would get a few votes for all defense. He had a few stints when he wasn't starting but since the switch he has been fantastic defending. I think he should deserve some votes....at least a few.

Lively back at practice today.

[KillerLeft]

Historically that's an insane feat. To put it in context, only 3 players ever were able to win 3x MVP's in a row and those were Larry Bird (84, 85, 86), Wilt Chamberlain (67, 68, 69) and Bill Russell (61, 62, 63). 

To win 3 in a row would be putting Jokic into a category that seems a bit higher than he deserves at this point. By the time Larry won his 3rd MVP he had already been 2x NBA champion and was on his way to a 3rd. Both Wilt and Russell were in a totally different NBA than today and it's hard to draw parallels from those two to Jokic. 

To suggest Jokic should be on his way to 4 straight MVP's is silly to me. Literally has never been done before. He's been incredible the last 4 years don't get me wrong. But he has not even been close to the level of other pantheons in the history of the league like Jabbar, Jordan, and Magic.

Clarifying by the way, Jokic is a deserving MVP. He had a crazy season. But so did Luka. Historically to be a 3x MVP winner you have to be on another stratosphere of player with multiple championships underneath your belt. Only Wilt was an exception to that when he won his 3rd but there were only 14 teams in the league at that point and he had just averaged 24/24/9 playing 47mpg and all 82 games. Again, hard to draw parallels here. Larry is the best comparison and Jokic hasn't reached that level yet.

Given the historical context and the benchmarks Luka hit this year, it's hard not to award him his 1st imo. The biggest reason to me why Jokic is going to get it this year is because Embiid got a pity award last year from voter fatigue and embarrassed the league by getting ousted in the playoffs while Jokic went on to win his 1st ring.

Hostorical implications aside, he has been deserving of the two he won, the one he should have won last season, and the one he’s about to win.

[Chicagojk]

https://twitter.com/dallasmavs/status/17...7685250486

so powerful