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MAVS NEWS: Kyrie Breaks Left Hand, Has Successful Surgery to Repair it.
(02-09-2024, 09:41 AM)Smitty Wrote: If you would have suggested before the TDL that the Mavs immediately corrected their Grant Williams mistake and upgrade their PF/C spots while also netting a draft pick, I would have blocked you for being a troll. (kidding)

That’s a fair point.
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(02-09-2024, 09:33 AM)JamesConway912 Wrote: Fully agree. I remain on the skeptical side here. We have little to no safety net from 2027 on going forward and will be severely limited in our ways to improve the roster further / replace guys as they age out (Kyrie? Timmy? Can Kleber keep the recent play?)

I think ultimately we haven’t gotten enough talent for what we have moved out in terms of draft assets over the years. Things just add up in a bad way. Owing another 1st to NY for KP here, an unprotected pick swap for Grant there, throw in the 1st we moved for Kyrie, now PJ. That’s a lot. The Cleveland-comparison hurts but i would not be surprised to see things end like that.

Lowe: „it feels like they are always chasing their tale“ in regards to all the picks we’ve moved for guys like Grant, correcting the Brunson mistake by going for Kyrie, now paying to move on from Grant just a few months later.

Also Lowe: „The team looks good on paper“ but he raises concerns about the asset management part of modern day NBA roster building as we somehow always end up „paying a premium“ throughout all these moves & the correcting of mistakes.

Hot sports opinion - if they get Dinwiddie (whom they will almost certainly not be able to keep in the summertime, not to mention losing DJJ), and if they gel, this year might actually be their best opportunity to win a championship. 

In any event, yesterday's moves, just like the summer moves, were Lindsay-savvy. It's not like PJ and Gafford won't have reasonably significant trade value if the Mavs choose to move on from them. Unless PJ absolutely poops the bed, which to me does not seem likely given his motivations to succeed here.

(02-09-2024, 09:45 AM)omahen Wrote: I totally agree that winning is best strategy to keep Luka. But what if PJ turns into another GWill story? There are less and less possibilities to recover from such a mistake. Lets be realistic. Mavs are current 8th seed. Certainly in a position where making playoffs is not totally certain. What do you do if they don't make it? How do you recover from there?

As long as Luka is healthy, they will make the playoffs.
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The 27 was always going to be gone, whether it was in the offseason or now. It’s not that big of a deal to me if the moves improve the team (and if they do, how much?). That is the important caveat and only time will tell, not reading opinions on a message board right now. I’m not saying stop giving your opinions, just that there’s little value in what you’re saying if your statements are definitive.
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(02-09-2024, 09:31 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: But man, their maneuvering on draft night changed me. Imagine if they had just done that three years in a row up until the next free agent period for Luka. Imagine the amount of young talent there would be around here at that point, and imagine how much experience some of it would have by then.

I hear this but I think that one thing that is way different with these trades than past years where we’re mortgaging the future is we’re adding young talent!

The biggest issue so far with Luka teams from a roster management standpoint is that the pieces around him were both, not talented enough but also, and more importantly from a team building standpoint, the pieces had no individual value across the league. It’s not just about having the ability to recoup picks via a desperate Luka trade, we now have other pieces worthy of draft compensation. That wasn’t the case no more than a year ago.

I get the angle of doom and gloom but we can’t assume there was going to be a great trade market this offseason and we still have plenty of ammo if there is. It was always going to be a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation, but I believe that the future would have been bleak if Luka leaves no matter how many picks we had and you should be aggressive while you have one of the best players in the world. 

At the end of day this all comes back to the KP fiasco but you have to play the hand your dealt and I think they did a pretty great job yesterday. Little things like making sure Holmes is involved and getting second round picks is something I wouldn’t have expected this FO to do in this situation in the past.
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(02-09-2024, 09:45 AM)omahen Wrote: If a chance for Luka to leave is so small as you think, than these moves make even less sense. Than building slowly around him would be a far better long-term strategy. Mavs are taking the risks because they are affraid Luka will not resign or ask out.

My personal feelings. Luka being as competitive as he is, would suffer so much in the middle of the pack hell that he would rather go to where he could win than suffer. I think his happines would be more important to him than additional money. He is rich as it is. Besides, he could probably easily recuperate loss in salary with endorsement deals he could get in top destinations. 

I totally agree that winning is best strategy to keep Luka. But what if PJ turns into another GWill story? There are less and less possibilities to recover from such a mistake. Lets be realistic. Mavs are current 8th seed. Certainly in a position where making playoffs is not totally certain. What do you do if they don't make it? How do you recover from there?
So they punt on this season and wait for the offseason to get Jerami Grant and he doesn’t work out. What now? It’s the same questions. Very little value in poopooing now. Plenty of time for that later.
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(02-09-2024, 09:52 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I hear this but I think that one thing that is way different with these trades than past years where we’re mortgaging the future is we’re adding young talent!

The biggest issue so far with Luka teams from a roster management standpoint is that the pieces around him were both, not talented enough but also, and more importantly from a team building standpoint, the pieces had no individual value across the league. It’s not just about having the ability to recoup picks via a desperate Luka trade, we now have other pieces worthy of draft compensation. That wasn’t the case no more than a year ago.

I get the angle of doom and gloom but we can’t assume there was going to be a great trade market this offseason and we still have plenty of ammo if there is. It was always going to be a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation, but I believe that the future would have been bleak if Luka leaves no matter how many picks we had and you should be aggressive while you have one of the best players in the world. 

At the end of day this all comes back to the KP fiasco but you have to play the hand your dealt and I think they did a pretty great job yesterday. Little things like making sure Holmes is involved and getting second round picks is something I wouldn’t have expected this FO to do in this situation in the past.

I consider it pretty well impossible for these deals to fail to make the team better unless Luka suffers a season-ending injury (sorry for the jinx). I said it before - two days ago, we had six players worthy of an 8-man playoff rotation (Luka, Kyrie, Lively, Exum, Green, and THJ - maybe Maxi if you squint and he stays healthy). Now they have eight. Nine if we get Dinwiddie. 

To be honest, I'm a little antsy on the Dinwiddie thing. It makes huge sense for him to sign here for the rest of the year for all involved. I think he raises their ceiling - especially in terms of injury insurance - a fair amount.
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(02-09-2024, 09:52 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I get the angle of doom and gloom but we can’t assume there was going to be a great trade market this offseason and we still have plenty of ammo if there is. It was always going to be a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation, but I believe that the future would have been bleak if Luka leaves no matter how many picks we had and you should be aggressive while you have one of the best players in the world. 

I don't think there is much doom and gloom really. I would say some of us are just cautious and not celebrating before we actually see the on court product.

What triggers me a bit is that in the discussions prior to TDL, "90 %" of the board would laugh at proposals to trade 2027 for PJ. Find thousand arguments why this is an overkill and how 2 SRP is max we should do. Now all of a sudden "90 %" of the board is super positive about it.

(02-09-2024, 09:56 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: So they punt on this season and wait for the offseason to get Jerami Grant and he doesn’t work out. What now? It’s the same questions. Very little value in poopooing now. Plenty of time for that later.

The possibility of player like Grant not working here is far lower than the possibility of player like PJ not working here. That is my main argument. Of course it is always possible it wouldn't be enough, but I would be far more comfortable doing it.
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(02-09-2024, 10:00 AM)omahen Wrote: I don't think there is much doom and gloom really. I would say some of us are just cautious and not celebrating before we actually see the on court product.

What triggers me a bit is that in the discussions prior to TDL, "90 %" of the board would laugh at proposals to trade 2027 for PJ. Find thousand arguments why this is an overkill and how 2 SRP is max we should do. Now all of a sudden "90 %" of the board is super positive about it.


The possibility of player like Grant not working here is far lower than the possibility of player like PJ not working here. That is my main argument. Of course it is always possible it wouldn't be enough, but I would be far more comfortable doing it.

I personally wasn't a proponent of trading the 2027 pick for PJ but we did get two 2nd rounders back. That matters.
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(02-09-2024, 10:00 AM)omahen Wrote: I don't think there is much doom and gloom really. I would say some of us are just cautious and not celebrating before we actually see the on court product.

What triggers me a bit is that in the discussions prior to TDL, "90 %" of the board would laugh at proposals to trade 2027 for PJ. Find thousand arguments why this is an overkill and how 2 SRP is max we should do. Now all of a sudden "90 %" of the board is super positive about it.


The possibility of player like Grant not working here is far lower than the possibility of player like PJ not working here. That is my main argument. Of course it is always possible it wouldn't be enough, but I would be far more comfortable doing it.

Ya maybe it’s caution and not doom, just need to words of the wet blanket bros of the hoop collective to run their course I think. I personally am not surprised it took the 27 pick to get PJ but I’ve been pumping his name here for a while so I have a bit of a bias there. I also though GWill would be a good fit too though so maybe it blows up but I do strongly feel this roster is better and more importantly the pieces have more value across the league so I think we’re moving in the right direction overall.
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(02-09-2024, 10:03 AM)MFFL Wrote: I personally wasn't a proponent of trading the 2027 pick for PJ but we did get two 2nd rounders back. That matters.

And dumped Grant Williams.
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(02-09-2024, 10:00 AM)omahen Wrote: I don't think there is much doom and gloom really. I would say some of us are just cautious and not celebrating before we actually see the on court product.

What triggers me a bit is that in the discussions prior to TDL, "90 %" of the board would laugh at proposals to trade 2027 for PJ. Find thousand arguments why this is an overkill and how 2 SRP is max we should do. Now all of a sudden "90 %" of the board is super positive about it.


The possibility of player like Grant not working here is far lower than the possibility of player like PJ not working here. That is my main argument. Of course it is always possible it wouldn't be enough, but I would be far more comfortable doing it.
I don’t see many super positive, but there are a lot of negative posts (not super negative) about the TDL. Also, I proposed a PJ and Hayward trade that included the 27.

Turns out, my thoughts on using the pick instead of the young guys was the same thoughts as the FO had. We’ll see if it works out, but that day is not today.
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(02-09-2024, 09:14 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sure, but I’m not saying anything to contradict that. What I’m saying is that they are putting themselves in a situation where “winning” will no longer be a choice they can make.

What Luka is going to care about the next time he has to make a decision is not only whether or not the team has been competitive in the years leading up to that decision, it will be even more about his opinion of their chances to be competitive moving into the future from that point in time. 

Every time they do one of these deals, the future gets a little less bright. I like the two players they got a lot, I just don’t think they can afford to operate like this anymore. They really are starting to feel like Cleveland did the first time LeBron played there.

We're worrying about 1st round picks that are years down the line?

Look how easy we acquired a 1st rounder from OKC? If we want picks, we'll get picks.   Lets be happy with the players we got.

We gave up nothing player wise to get two starter level players. We got rid of dead weight in Holmes, Williams, Curry.  Look at the players we traded for as our 1st round picks. We just get the player a few years earlier. In Luka's prime, and in the last few years of Kyrie. We are going for it. And i love it.
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(02-09-2024, 10:06 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Ya maybe it’s caution and not doom, just need to words of the wet blanket bros of the hoop collective to run their course I think. I personally am not surprised it took the 27 pick to get PJ but I’ve been pumping his name here for a while so I have a bit of a bias there. I also though GWill would be a good fit too though so maybe it blows up but I do strongly feel this roster is better and more importantly the pieces have more value across the league so I think we’re moving in the right direction overall.

I also think the roster is better. But there is imho a huge difference between better and true contender. I don't think Mavs are a true contender after TDL moves and a path to get there is imho more difficult now than it was before TDL. 

I was fully aware the only path to PJ is trading the FRP. I was certain those 2 SRP ideas floated around here make no sense. But, my stance regarding PJ was that he is not worth the 2027. So I also have a bias and only time will tell what happens.
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(02-09-2024, 10:10 AM)omahen Wrote: I also think the roster is better. But there is imho a huge difference between better and true contender. I don't think Mavs are a true contender after TDL moves and a path to get there is imho more difficult now than it was before TDL. 

I was fully aware the only path to PJ is trading the FRP. I was certain those 2 SRP ideas floated around here make no sense. But, my stance regarding PJ was that he is not worth the 2027. So I also have a bias and only time will tell what happens.

We’re certainly not a true contender, I agree but we still have a path to get there in the near future which I didn’t think would be possible when we made the Kyrie trade. I know you were big on keeping all the picks for one big trade but the market is coming down a bit and I feel strongly we can make a very competitive proposal if someone becomes available this summer or next deadline.

(Plus lebron is going to force his way here anyway)
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If the players work out reasonably well, I think we are a dark horse contender this year. I really hope these moves also allow for Luka and Kyrie to play less mpg too.
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I could buy the dark horse argument if the Mavs had a real coach and not just the guy who works here
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(02-09-2024, 10:18 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: If the players work out reasonably well, I think we are a dark horse contender this year. I really hope these moves also allow for Luka and Kyrie to play less mpg too.

The thing that worries me most is defense. I am affraid all four top scoring options (Luka, Kyrie, PJ, THJ) are average defenders at best. I am not affraid about offense, but the key question going forward will be if they can defend anything against the good teams.
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I don't see how people can be disappointed or worried about the future. The current roster is full of desirable players. We have 2 superstar players, 2 elite defensive and lob threat centers, several young players with promise and Green is starting to turn the corner finally it seems. I think PJ Washington will be a quality player here. We have a really good bench now. We have some quality defenders now. We are in the hunt on buy outs for a change. We have numerous players that can be flipped for picks if that is a need at some point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the Mavs are better than they were yesterday and younger. How is that a bad thing?
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(02-09-2024, 09:31 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I agree that Luka probably needs to see a plan NOW, and that he’s probably one of the main voices deciding things like “Grant is weird, get him out of here” or “PJ seems like a good fit.” 

And before this summer, I would’ve been resigned to this path like you seem to be. 

But man, their maneuvering on draft night changed me. Imagine if they had just done that three years in a row up until the next free agent period for Luka. Imagine the amount of young talent there would be around here at that point, and imagine how much experience some of it would have by then. I have to believe that Luka is smart enough to see the wisdom in that approach, and think I would’ve tried to sell them on it. Who knows, maybe they did…

Don’t get me wrong – I am excited to watch these two new players with the team, and I do think they’ll make the team better.
I don’t think the front office had the choice to just stockpile over time. That ship sailed years ago 

Luka had a hard enough time tanking for a few games. Who is the last 20 year old you’ve known that had patience? Patience goes out the door when when you have an annual top 5 MVP candidate. The players have had the real control for awhile now. 

I personally agree with you and wanted your plan. I haven’t thought Luka was mature enough to win until maybe this year. But we are here now. 

Every move we make from now on will have Luka’s blessing. Kyrie is here now and we basically have the complete “Luka’s rookie scale extension” iteration of the Mavs. We’ve officially moved on from the “Luka’s rookie contract” team. 

We have 3 postseasons to try out this current squad. So long as we don’t spend everything, there will be plenty of draft capital available in 3 years to build a completely new team that would satisfy Luka. 

Its so extremely rare for a player like Luka to ask out it’s not really worth thinking about. It would be a first out of ALL the euro superstar players. They’re loyal. What would be the advantage to Luka leaving? To join up in free agency with other superstars. This has historically been the only time something like that happens………Luka’s walk year we have no other contracts on the books outside of Lively/Omax/Green…….WE would be the team that would facilitate the superstars teaming up. Luka has enough gravity that if other players want to play with him (i.e. Kawhi/PG, Lebron/Wade/Bosh) they will structure their deals to line up with him. We may not even need draft capital if the core of the team all sign in FA
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(02-09-2024, 10:19 AM)Branduil Wrote: I could buy the dark horse argument if the Mavs had a real coach and not just the guy who works here

I didn’t realize it when I was making the argument this morning, but this really is the difference for me.

I don’t agree for a second with IGT’s claim that this could be a dark horse contender, but when I try to think why, it really doesn’t have much to do with the roster. I think that’s exactly the way I would describe the roster… If it was coached well.

It’s just impossible for me to imagine Jason Kidd coaching this team to the championship. So, without even meaning to be, I’m in sort of a holding pattern until they wise up and change head coaches. That holding pattern leads me to want to conserve assets until we know what the real coach is going to want in order to get the job done, and so on and so on. It’s like dominoes for me, and I didn’t fully realize that until just now.
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