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[KillerLeft]

I’m a big fan of Washington as a small ball center. I have seen him used that way to devastating effect. As a 4, he’s ok. Grant Williams would be better in THAT role, I think, due to his superior shooting. Defense is roughly the same, based on what I’ve seen.

If the plan is to play Washington WITH a center (here we go again) he’ll have to play a certain way. Not here to say he can’t, but not vouching for him in that role, either.

[Chicagojk]

Stein said a few other interesting things.

Mavs probably don’t have enough to trade for Allen IF Cleveland decided to move him.

Mavs having trouble finding Hardaway takers.

Also mentioned Mavs would be open to helping facilitate the Dame trade but it kind of felt like a “mavs would be doing their jobs” sort of answer, nothing really concrete

Thanks.  My biggest fear is they don't have any trade lined up for Hardaway or others.  Or at least legit things in motion.  Hardaway is a good/solid player.   I wouldn't call it a win just to get off of him without that leading to a similar level player.

I am also worried that we are just waiting and hoping on restricted free agents.  

I want to hope they got things in the works, but that brings me back to previous summers where it ended in disappointment.

Regarding Bamba, I may be in favor of giving him a smaller contract than Thybulle at the full MLE.  But I really haven't thought much about it.   If the Mavs are fans of his (or at least what he could be), I am sure they can wink wink him that we would have minutes for him.  I guess what I am saying is he would be an interesting low cost gamble.

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So, I was brave enough to bring up "hard cap" in a fourth of July gathering last night despite not knowing what it means. I have not been brave enough to bring up DroppingDimes20 yet

[omahen]

Thanks.  My biggest fear is they don't have any trade lined up for Hardaway or others.  Or at least legit things in motion.  Hardaway is a good/solid player.   I wouldn't call it a win just to get off of him without that leading to a similar level player.

I am also worried that we are just waiting and hoping on restricted free agents.  

I want to hope they got things in the works, but that brings me back to previous summers where it ended in disappointment.

Regarding Bamba, I may be in favor of giving him a smaller contract than Thybulle at the full MLE.  But I really haven't thought much about it.   If the Mavs are fans of his (or at least what he could be), I am sure they can wink wink him that we would have minutes for him.  I guess what I am saying is he would be an interesting low cost gamble.

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So, I was brave enough to bring up "hard cap" in a fourth of July gathering last night despite not knowing what it means.  I have not been brave enough to bring up DroppingDimes20 yet

I really don't understand Bamba fascination on part of this board (not related to you specifically). Orlando didn't think he has it to be kept long term. He couldn't crack Lakers rotation and they obviously didn't want to keep him at 10 mil, clearly signalling how high opinion they have about him. On a personal note, I was never impressed watching him play. Similar to Wood he can shoot a three and block a shot, but terribly out of position on defense all the time. Not capable of switching on faster players. So, without a doubt from my perspective, he is not the starter material we need and likely not better than any of the crap centers we already have. He is not the solution we need. I don't care if we give him vet min to be the third or fourth center (behind the starting centre, Lively and then competing with Powell for remaining minutes). But with all the centers on the team, it would seem to be just a wasted roster spot. 

Mavs need to find a starting centre, clear roster of wasted contracts and roster spots (McGee, likely Holmes), than I guess we discuss the likes of Bamba.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I’m a big fan of Washington as a small ball center. I have seen him used that way to devastating effect. As a 4, he’s ok. Grant Williams would be better in THAT role, I think, due to his superior shooting. Defense is roughly the same, based on what I’ve seen.

If the plan is to play Washington WITH a center (here we go again) he’ll have to play a certain way. Not here to say he can’t, but not vouching for him in that role, either.

I agree with all this. I think he’s a little more of a tweener than Maxi but certainly more useful as a center. If you look at his bball ref he was used heavily at the 5 two seasons ago and much less last year and his on/off numbers suffered greatly. It’s kind of like looking at John Collins bball ref honestly.

I would say though that starting him alongside Powell may not be his best use but is better than what we are currently working with as a PF.

[dirkfansince1998]

I’m a big fan of Washington as a small ball center. I have seen him used that way to devastating effect. As a 4, he’s ok. Grant Williams would be better in THAT role, I think, due to his superior shooting. Defense is roughly the same, based on what I’ve seen.

If the plan is to play Washington WITH a center (here we go again) he’ll have to play a certain way. Not here to say he can’t, but not vouching for him in that role, either.

This. Washington is more "small big" than "big forward". As far as positional need goes Williams is by far the best fit. Just looking at talent I would take both Washington and Thybulle over Williams. Do you go for talent/upside even if the fit isn´t as great?

[ItsGoTime]

I’m a big fan of Washington as a small ball center. I have seen him used that way to devastating effect. As a 4, he’s ok. Grant Williams would be better in THAT role, I think, due to his superior shooting. Defense is roughly the same, based on what I’ve seen.

If the plan is to play Washington WITH a center (here we go again) he’ll have to play a certain way. Not here to say he can’t, but not vouching for him in that role, either.

Good thing Dwight isn’t a real starting center then!

[mvossman]

I’m a big fan of Washington as a small ball center. I have seen him used that way to devastating effect. As a 4, he’s ok. Grant Williams would be better in THAT role, I think, due to his superior shooting. Defense is roughly the same, based on what I’ve seen.

If the plan is to play Washington WITH a center (here we go again) he’ll have to play a certain way. Not here to say he can’t, but not vouching for him in that role, either.

I think there is some value to him playing some small ball 5.  I also think he is fine playing the 4.  He can definitely handle it defensively.  I also like the idea of a frontcourt of Maxi/Washington.  I think for a team with holes at both 4 and the 5, he makes a lot of sense.

[DallasMaverick]

I think there is some value to him playing some small ball 5.  I also think he is fine playing the 4.  He can definitely handle it defensively.  I also like the idea of a frontcourt of Maxi/Washington.  I think for a team with holes at both 4 and the 5, he makes a lot of sense.

If they decide to play a switch-everything defense, how versatile is PJ?

Seems like Powell is marginally better equipped for that than Holmes, but I haven’t seen Holmes’ game enough to have an opinion.

[KillerLeft]

If they decide to play a switch-everything defense, how versatile is PJ?

Seems like Powell is marginally better equipped for that than Holmes, but I haven’t seen Holmes’ game enough to have an opinion.

VERY, and I’m sure he, Kleber and Powell would give them some good switching options. Can’t really switch everything with Kyrie involved, but can certainly do some switching with the guys mentioned.

[SleepingHero]

Only concern I have with PJ is that while he's a small ball 4 (maybe even 5), he's only 6'7. Much smaller than Maxi. Why would he be anything but a 3 here?

If anything he's basically like THJ but a bit more efficient.

As another total aside, how gettable could Mark Williams be...?

[mvossman]

Only concern I have with PJ is that while he's a small ball 4 (maybe even 5), he's only 6'7. Much smaller than Maxi. Why would he be anything but a 3 here?

If anything he's basically like THJ but a bit more efficient.

As another total aside, how gettable could Mark Williams be...?

He is 240 with over 7 ft wingspan. He is a switchable 4

[SleepingHero]

He is 240 with over 7 ft wingspan. He is a switchable 4

NBA has him listed at 230lbs.

He's definitely a switchable 4, but his size does concern me a bit, especially since we already have issues rebounding. Don't get me wrong I'd love PJ here as I think his game would fit next to Luka's so well, but the Mavs definitely need some more size.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Only concern I have with PJ is that while he's a small ball 4 (maybe even 5), he's only 6'7. Much smaller than Maxi. Why would he be anything but a 3 here?

If anything he's basically like THJ but a bit more efficient.

As another total aside, how gettable could Mark Williams be...?

21/22 season he played about 40% of his minutes as the center.  82games shows the lineups, so you can actually see he was the center.

22/23 they tried to put the ball in his hands and let him do more on-ball stuff.  He wasn’t ever the center really.  You could argue some of his time was at the 3 based on who he played with.

Interesting, one year the Charlotte D was much better when he was on the floor and the O was the same.  The other year it was just the opposite.  O was much better and D was the same.  Part of the role of pro-scouting is understanding how someone might fit onto your roster.  If you think of him as a longer (wingspan) DFS who has the strength to ‘guard up’ more than Finney could, but someone who can do MUCH more with the ball in his hands than DFS (heck, maybe more than THJ), then you probably have PJ.

His efficiency dropped as his shot quality was worse last season as he created more or his own stuff.  Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if his TS% got back up to his career high .588 with Luka and Kyrie AND you’d probably still get a little of that self created stuff in there which didn’t happen when he achieved that .588.  I think he’s basically a mix and match piece who can play all sorts of roles offensively and is switchable defensively (and won’t be hunted by any means).  Eventually, the ability to play with Lively is what will matter (by the time a 4 year deal is over).  I have no issue with him in such a role.

[KillerLeft]

Only concern I have with PJ is that while he's a small ball 4 (maybe even 5), he's only 6'7. Much smaller than Maxi. Why would he be anything but a 3 here?

If anything he's basically like THJ but a bit more efficient.

As another total aside, how gettable could Mark Williams be...?

Washington is ABSOLUTELY not a 3. Not even close. He’s a 4/5, and that has become a rare animal these days. That’s a good thing, because it’s what the Mavs desperately need.

[SleepingHero]

21/22 season he played about 40% of his minutes as the center.  82games shows the lineups, so you can actually see he was the center.

22/23 they tried to put the ball in his hands and let him do more on-ball stuff.  He wasn’t ever the center really.  You could argue some of his time was at the 3 based on who he played with.

Interesting, one year the Charlotte D was much better when he was on the floor and the O was the same.  The other year it was just the opposite.  O was much better and D was the same.  Part of the role of pro-scouting is understanding how someone might fit onto your roster.  If you think of him as a longer (wingspan) DFS who has the strength to ‘guard up’ more than Finney could, but someone who can do MUCH more with the ball in his hands than DFS (heck, maybe more than THJ), then you probably have PJ.

His efficiency dropped as his shot quality was worse last season as he created more or his own stuff.  Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if his TS% got back up to his career high .588 with Luka and Kyrie AND you’d probably still get a little of that self created stuff in there which didn’t happen when he achieved that .588.  I think he’s basically a mix and match piece who can play all sorts of roles offensively and is switchable defensively (and won’t be hunted by any means).  Eventually, the ability to play with Lively is what will matter (by the time a 4 year deal is over).  I have no issue with him in such a role.

Thanks for the in-depth breakdown.

I know you've been on PJ for quite some time as a potential Maxi replacement. I see the benefits and think he can fit well here. Just depends on if the Mavs can actually get him.

Still I believe the need for a center that can actually rebound when you're going that small is imperative. Outside of Lively, I don't really see the personnel to fill that need, and expecting Lively to be that day 1 might be too much.

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Washington is ABSOLUTELY not a 3. Not even close. He’s a 4/5, and that has become a rare animal these days. That’s a good thing, because it’s what the Mavs desperately need.

PJ is a 3 if you think Thybulle is like Franky Smokes

[KillerLeft]

PJ is a 3 if you think Thybulle is like Franky Smokes

Both good defenders, but only against guards, not forwards. Both game changers on defense, but so limited, offensively, that they are basically unplayable. Thubulle’s defense is probably a little better, Ntilikina’s handles and general offensive competency is a bit better (still nowhere near good enough). How is that not basically the same situation?

If the Mavs get Grant Williams (my preference) or Washington, this off-season will get an A from me. While I’m not against having Thybulle on the roster, giving him a multi-year deal at MLE money seems insane to me.

[SleepingHero]

Both good defenders, but only against guards, not forwards. Both game changers on defense, but so limited, offensively, that they are basically unplayable. Thubulle’s defense is probably a little better, Ntilikina’s handles and general offensive competency is a bit better (still nowhere good enough). How is that not basically the same situation?

If the Mavs get Grant Williams (my preference) or Washington, this off-season will get an A from me. While I’m not against having Thybulle on the roster, giving him a multi-year deal at MLE money seems insane to me.

I was trying to be a little playful with the gif as PJ definitely isn't just a 3 but I'll bite cause I'm just so confused why you keep making the argument that Thybulle and Frank are in the same league. 

Thybulle's defense is only a "little better" than Franks??? KL I understand that you might not like Thybulle for his supposed limited offensive game, but you're underselling his defense so much just to make your argument. There is a reason why Frank is out of the league (and was out the league before the Mavs picked him up) and why Thybulle is about to get re-upped for multiple years.


Anyyyyyywhooooo moving on. At least were both in agreement either Grant/PJ gets an A+ offseason, although I think Thybulle also qualifies. 

The real prize would be getting 2 of the 3!

[Chicagojk]

I really don't understand Bamba fascination on part of this board (not related to you specifically). Orlando didn't think he has it to be kept long term. He couldn't crack Lakers rotation and they obviously didn't want to keep him at 10 mil, clearly signalling how high opinion they have about him. On a personal note, I was never impressed watching him play. Similar to Wood he can shoot a three and block a shot, but terribly out of position on defense all the time. Not capable of switching on faster players. So, without a doubt from my perspective, he is not the starter material we need and likely not better than any of the crap centers we already have. He is not the solution we need. I don't care if we give him vet min to be the third or fourth center (behind the starting centre, Lively and then competing with Powell for remaining minutes). But with all the centers on the team, it would seem to be just a wasted roster spot. 

Mavs need to find a starting centre, clear roster of wasted contracts and roster spots (McGee, likely Holmes), than I guess we discuss the likes of Bamba.

No I get that.  I am not a huge Bamba fan either.   The vision of him doesn't meet the reality.  so maybe it was just an early in the morning take.   On the other hand I could see in 2-3 years saying "man, you remember a few years ago where you could of have had him for 3 million".   I could also see him almost out of the league in 2-3 years.

The weird rumors of Dallas interested in non starting centers is confusing too.  I have no idea what to believe, it just seems weird.

I view Powell as Lively insurance plus a great guy to have on the roster.  Similar to how I view Curry as Hardy insurance.  Curry will probably have a regular role though.   With Lively, I think they hope he can play at least 20 minutes a night.  The big question is do they think Holmes is a 25 minute per game player?  The rumors seem to suggest they do not.

[mvossman]

Both good defenders, but only against guards, not forwards. Both game changers on defense, but so limited, offensively, that they are basically unplayable. Thubulle’s defense is probably a little better, Ntilikina’s handles and general offensive competency is a bit better (still nowhere near good enough). How is that not basically the same situation?

If the Mavs get Grant Williams (my preference) or Washington, this off-season will get an A from me. While I’m not against having Thybulle on the roster, giving him a multi-year deal at MLE money seems insane to me.

I think thybulle is one of the best defenders in the game, a little longer than frank, and a better shooter. I think next to Luka and kyrie he would be a passable shooter (something frank was not) and elite defender. In a perfect world we could send out Timmy+ for PJ and get thybulle with mle

[Mavs2021]

No I get that.  I am not a huge Bamba fan either.   The vision of him doesn't meet the reality.  so maybe it was just an early in the morning take.   On the other hand I could see in 2-3 years saying "man, you remember a few years ago where you could of have had him for 3 million".   I could also see him almost out of the league in 2-3 years.

Exactly. That´s the whole point. I laid out the case for Bamba. He´s played for rebuilding teams his whole career with (awful) young score first PGs. He was injured the whole time on the Lakers and I think that´s actually the biggest problem. He just can´t seem to stay healthy.

But here is a funny comparison.

Tyson Chandler 

Season 5 (in Chicago) averaged  5 PPG, 9.3 RPG,  1.3 BPG.
Season 6 (in NO with CP3) averaged  11.8 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 1.8 BPG.
Season 8 (in Charlotte with DJ Augustin)  averaged 6.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 1.1 BPG.
Season 9-11 (in Dallas/New York with Kidd/Billups) averaged 11/11.

PGs matter to the type of center Tyson/Bamba are and he´s never played with an above average PG in his whole career.