Posts: 1,085
Threads: 17
Likes Received: 367 in 228 posts
Likes Given: 218
Likes Received: 367 in 228 posts
Likes Given: 218
Joined: Sep 2019
10-24-2023, 06:46 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-24-2023, 06:52 AM by MrGoat.)
(10-23-2023, 05:31 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I think this was a mistake. Yes, congrats to Nico in the near term. $13.7mm is good value for the team. It also makes team salary manageable next season.
But after two years of this deal (so 3 from now when he's 25) Josh will be extension eligible and we won't be able to extend him because 140% of his final year is only $20mm. So, Josh will be a full on UFA in 2027. We will either pay dearly for this or lose him altogether. My range was $14mm-$16mm, so $13.7mm isn't that far off. But, I'm not a fan of the 3 year term.
4 years away is too far out to worry about that because so many things can change. And it's a very good thing to have him locked in without worrying about his next contract because we have a bit of a history of players getting disgruntled with us in contract years. Come 2027 if he's an integral piece of the team we'll just have to throw the Brinks truck at him (because he's not going to give us another sweetheart deal like this in UFA and if we try to dick him around in the contract year he'll just leave so we'd have no incentive to mess with his minutes even in the contract year). It's not the end of the world to have to give a player a big contract if you need that player. Considering a guy like Jaden McDaniels got 5/136 this contract could also be a valuable trade chip if we want to go that route. Austin Reaves is 25 years old, Josh Green is 22. Because of the upside factor he would have been a lot more expensive barring a disastrous 23-24 season had we waited to do this
Posts: 242
Threads: 1
Likes Received: 213 in 110 posts
Likes Given: 1,075
Likes Received: 213 in 110 posts
Likes Given: 1,075
Joined: Mar 2021
(10-23-2023, 06:45 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I'd call it advancing the conversation rather than nitpicking. I acknowledged the positives. Those are obvious.
But, how many posts have we seen that took the time to even think about what this does down the road. Nico's job is bigger than just what this does to the 24/25 cap. He has to think through extensions and I'm saying right now that Josh won't extend off of this number. You can take the season to evaluate if you'd like. I don't think it will take that long.
I think we collectively seem to anchor to negative things with certain players. Brunson was 'unplayable' in the playoffs until he wasn't. But, people are still anchored to Green not taking open shots against Gobert in the playoffs. He's not the same guy. Kidd is an idiot regarding just about any topic around here unless its his decision to start Holiday for a few games. Then, its an indictment on how good Green is.
The upside is really high here. It doesn't take a leap. It just takes him doing what he does when he gets PT. Ideally, I'd like to be able to see Josh get another extension 3 years from now. I think we'll all eventually get to a point where we all agree this is a problem. Until then, at least this should clear up any team shenanigan's surrounding his playing time or role.
Advancing the conversation with legitimate information. I like that!
Posts: 6,358
Threads: 17
Likes Received: 3,078 in 1,796 posts
Likes Given: 172
Likes Received: 3,078 in 1,796 posts
Likes Given: 172
Joined: Oct 2020
(10-23-2023, 06:45 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I'd call it advancing the conversation rather than nitpicking. I acknowledged the positives. Those are obvious.
But, how many posts have we seen that took the time to even think about what this does down the road. Nico's job is bigger than just what this does to the 24/25 cap. He has to think through extensions and I'm saying right now that Josh won't extend off of this number. You can take the season to evaluate if you'd like. I don't think it will take that long.
I think we collectively seem to anchor to negative things with certain players. Brunson was 'unplayable' in the playoffs until he wasn't. But, people are still anchored to Green not taking open shots against Gobert in the playoffs. He's not the same guy. Kidd is an idiot regarding just about any topic around here unless its his decision to start Holiday for a few games. Then, its an indictment on how good Green is.
The upside is really high here. It doesn't take a leap. It just takes him doing what he does when he gets PT. Ideally, I'd like to be able to see Josh get another extension 3 years from now. I think we'll all eventually get to a point where we all agree this is a problem. Until then, at least this should clear up any team shenanigan's surrounding his playing time or role.
I was thinking the negotiating would be based on salary. It looks like it was based on years. I guess that is fair. Green gets generational money no matter what happens the next few years, but gives him chance to make big money in his next contract (or 2) if he develops into an elite 3 and D guy.
Who knows where we will be in 3-4 years. I think if Luka is here and Green is a starter, him resigning is much more likely. If the Mavs view him as a bench guy, I would say the odds go way down. Especially if Green game grows over the next few years.
Posts: 4,762
Threads: 20
Likes Received: 1,074 in 619 posts
Likes Given: 3,346
Likes Received: 1,074 in 619 posts
Likes Given: 3,346
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-24-2023, 04:33 AM)Halfnir Wrote: So glad that Green is locked up for another 4 years on a very reasonable contract before the season starts. Now the Mavs can fully commit to him and try to get the most out of him without the fear of having to pay him too much if he performs very well.
Underrated post, tbh. You nailed it.
Posts: 1,008
Threads: 0
Likes Received: 681 in 374 posts
Likes Given: 1,034
Likes Received: 681 in 374 posts
Likes Given: 1,034
Joined: Jul 2022
[Brad Townsend] Mavericks media notes list this probable starting 5 for tomorrow night: Derrick Jones Jr., Grant Williams, Dereck Lively II, Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic.
Posts: 14,935
Threads: 49
Likes Received: 7,228 in 4,000 posts
Likes Given: 8,925
Likes Received: 7,228 in 4,000 posts
Likes Given: 8,925
Joined: Aug 2020
(10-24-2023, 05:42 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [Brad Townsend] Mavericks media notes list this probable starting 5 for tomorrow night: Derrick Jones Jr., Grant Williams, Dereck Lively II, Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic.
Wow. Kidd is really just not a Green fan, is he?
Posts: 342
Threads: 0
Likes Received: 259 in 136 posts
Likes Given: 3
Likes Received: 259 in 136 posts
Likes Given: 3
Joined: Feb 2022
What on earth has Jones done to deserve a spot in the starting lineup? Completely irrational. Just like starting Justin Holiday last season after picking him up off the street midseason.
This Jones-stuff will end up being a complete disaster once more.
Dumb. Just commit to Green and be done with this nonsense.
Posts: 4,762
Threads: 20
Likes Received: 1,074 in 619 posts
Likes Given: 3,346
Likes Received: 1,074 in 619 posts
Likes Given: 3,346
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-24-2023, 05:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Wow. Kidd is really just not a Green fan, is he?
Thought Green was out with an ankle injury.
Posts: 735
Threads: 0
Likes Received: 473 in 274 posts
Likes Given: 776
Likes Received: 473 in 274 posts
Likes Given: 776
Joined: Feb 2022
(10-24-2023, 06:19 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Thought Green was out with an ankle injury.
No that’s Hardy. Josh fell and had a sore back but played in the last preseason game.
Posts: 6,358
Threads: 17
Likes Received: 3,078 in 1,796 posts
Likes Given: 172
Likes Received: 3,078 in 1,796 posts
Likes Given: 172
Joined: Oct 2020
I think Green should start. We don’t have anyone who fits better. I just always got the impression Kidd views him as a heavy minute bench player. Regardless, he should finish most nights.
I think His plan is to have a wave approach. At the beginning of games Luka typically likes to score or get a rim runner some baskets. I think Kidd is looking for guys to bring off the bench to build leads.
Again, I think Green could start. If we had another starting caliber wing on the roster, I may think differently.
Posts: 9,474
Threads: 26
Likes Received: 2,678 in 1,516 posts
Likes Given: 1,827
Likes Received: 2,678 in 1,516 posts
Likes Given: 1,827
Joined: Sep 2019
Good luck playing two non shooters.
Posts: 13,379
Threads: 333
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-24-2023, 05:42 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [Brad Townsend] Mavericks media notes list this probable starting 5 for tomorrow night: Derrick Jones Jr., Grant Williams, Dereck Lively II, Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic.
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
Posts: 1,746
Threads: 2
Likes Received: 1,066 in 606 posts
Likes Given: 1,118
Likes Received: 1,066 in 606 posts
Likes Given: 1,118
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 14,935
Threads: 49
Likes Received: 7,228 in 4,000 posts
Likes Given: 8,925
Likes Received: 7,228 in 4,000 posts
Likes Given: 8,925
Joined: Aug 2020
Maybe Green isn't 100%. Maybe he likes him in combo with a specific bench unit for a good reason.
I promise to give Kidd a chance this year...
I promise to give Kidd a chance this year...
I promise to give Kidd a chance this year...
I promise to give Kidd a chance this year...
I promise to give Kidd a chance this year...
Posts: 13,379
Threads: 333
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Joined: Sep 2019
10-26-2023, 12:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2023, 12:06 AM by SleepingHero.)
Jason Kidd says starting Maxi Kleber was a defense assignment for tonight and to protect Dereck Lively II from foul trouble.
“As we go forward, we understand that Lively will start at some point… He’s about the team and you saw that tonight and that’s what makes him special.”
https://twitter.com/sixfivelando/status/...8898009285
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
Posts: 13,379
Threads: 333
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Joined: Sep 2019
image so nice I had to post it twice.
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
Posts: 13,379
Threads: 333
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Likes Received: 4,943 in 2,800 posts
Likes Given: 2,916
Joined: Sep 2019
@MFollowill
To Brian's point below about pace. Of the 14 games played so far this season, the Mavs vs Spurs game was played at the 2nd fastest pace, 107 possessions per team. At 97.2 possessions a game last year, the Mavs were 28th. It's been a point of emphasis and hopefully it continues.
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
Posts: 4,084
Threads: 13
Likes Received: 4,017 in 1,478 posts
Likes Given: 2,075
Likes Received: 4,017 in 1,478 posts
Likes Given: 2,075
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-26-2023, 12:06 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: Jason Kidd says starting Maxi Kleber was a defense assignment for tonight and to protect Dereck Lively II from foul trouble.
“As we go forward, we understand that Lively will start at some point… He’s about the team and you saw that tonight and that’s what makes him special.”
https://twitter.com/sixfivelando/status/...8898009285
I don’t think you can beat Kidd up for this decision. It worked. Even the most optimistic Lively Fan Boys among us didn’t see this coming. We can’t know if we’d have seen the same thing had he started.
The Maxi minutes were awful. He had two positive stints (early second and end of third). Both of those would have been against subs. All of his minutes against starters were just awful. But, Lively can’t play 48. I’m actually more shocked at 30 minutes than I am at the scoring. He’s going to get points off of lobs. The pleasant surprise (and we saw this in preseason) is the non lob scoring. There is more to his game than the Duke highlights show. History tells me we will eventually be fine between Powell and Maxi in the non-Lively minutes once Kidd puts Lively in the starting lineup.
Since this is a Green thread, I’ll mention that the Lively, GWill, Green, Luka and Irving minutes were outstanding last night. They played together mid-second (+3) and to close the second (+6). Same thing in the second half. They were together mid-fourth (-6) and closed the game +9. That grouping isn’t an issue whether you call Green a starter or not.
What we really need is one more guy who takes the DJJ/Exum/Curry minutes (23 last night). We essentially ran a playoff-tight 7 man rotation with these three guys sharing an 8th spot. Each of them has an NBA skill, but not all the skills a rotation player needs. This kind of points out the beauty of someone like Green. He does all of the things that are the best skills of those three guys (D, secondary creation and outside shooting) at a fairly high level and is only 22. We could probably use another Green, not less of the one we have.
Posts: 4,377
Threads: 5
Likes Received: 1,817 in 1,075 posts
Likes Given: 657
Likes Received: 1,817 in 1,075 posts
Likes Given: 657
Joined: Feb 2021
(10-26-2023, 06:42 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: What we really need is one more guy who takes the DJJ/Exum/Curry minutes (23 last night). We essentially ran a playoff-tight 7 man rotation with these three guys sharing an 8th spot. Each of them has an NBA skill, but not all the skills a rotation player needs. This kind of points out the beauty of someone like Green. He does all of the things that are the best skills of those three guys (D, secondary creation and outside shooting) at a fairly high level and is only 22. We could probably use another Green, not less of the one we have.
Hardy is still on the team, right?
Posts: 4,084
Threads: 13
Likes Received: 4,017 in 1,478 posts
Likes Given: 2,075
Likes Received: 4,017 in 1,478 posts
Likes Given: 2,075
Joined: Sep 2019
(10-26-2023, 07:04 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Hardy is still on the team, right?
Probably not as long as THJ is getting nearly 30 minutes
But, at this point, I think you lump him in with those other three guys as one-dimensional. I question whether that dimension is high on the list of needs given the skills of our top seven players right now.
|