AROUND the NBA: MIN Sweeps PHX!

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

https://twitter.com/DaneMooreNBA/status/...2471669999


Ant on missing KAT.

[SleepingHero]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3991...her-counts

Ex-Trail Blazer Ben McLemore faces rape charge, other counts

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Nikola Jokić dominates the DPOY with 41pts/11reb/7ast/3stl on 16-20 shooting in Win vs Timberwolves


I think Jokic just wrapped up the MVP if there was any doubt.

[rocky164]

Nikola Jokić dominates the DPOY with 41pts/11reb/7ast/3stl on 16-20 shooting in Win vs Timberwolves


I think Jokic just wrapped up the MVP if there was any doubt.

If Joker wins MVP I’m ok with it.  Sad for Luka and the Mavs, but Joker is the best player on the best team in the West and the defending champ.  But I will be ticked if Luka finishes lower than 2nd in the voting.  It’s debatable between those 2 as to which team is better without their star.  Basically is Jokic more important to winning than Luka?  I’d lean towards Luka but I’m biased.

[dirkfansince1998]

If Joker wins MVP I’m ok with it.  Sad for Luka and the Mavs, but Joker is the best player on the best team in the West and the defending champ.  But I will be ticked if Luka finishes lower than 2nd in the voting.  It’s debatable between those 2 as to which team is better without their star.  Basically is Jokic more important to winning than Luka?  I’d lean towards Luka but I’m biased.

Outside of couting stats/volume Luka has no case. Jokic dominates advanced metrics and +/- based stuff. Still a great season from Luka. One of the best non MVP seasons in recent history. Just as good or better than Harden's MVP seasons. Better than Embiid last season.

[SleepingHero]

Outside of couting stats/volume Luka has no case. Jokic dominates advanced metrics and +/- based stuff. Still a great season from Luka. One of the best non MVP seasons in recent history. Just as good or better than Harden's MVP seasons. Better than Embiid last season.

I'd say Luka has qualified with multiple incredible moments this season. 4th highest scoring game ever recorded. Incredible 50 piece on Christmas against a rival. Managed to come back as one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Improved his FT%. Basically every single critique we've had of Luka year over year he improved upon this year.

Carried the team to 50 wins despite having the most injuries on the roster for a Western Conference playoff team. Played at a 60 win pace with everyone healthy. 

Jokic deserves the MVP. But so does Luka.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

If Joker wins MVP I’m ok with it.  Sad for Luka and the Mavs, but Joker is the best player on the best team in the West and the defending champ.  But I will be ticked if Luka finishes lower than 2nd in the voting.  It’s debatable between those 2 as to which team is better without their star.  Basically is Jokic more important to winning than Luka?  I’d lean towards Luka but I’m biased.

I think it's a wash. Both are tremendously important to their teams. Dallas's slow start to the beginning of the season as a team, cost Luka even though he's been magical all year.  If he had the team as currently constructed from the start, he would have had a better chance IMO.  I think Jokic will win it again..

[dirkfansince1998]

I'd say Luka has qualified with multiple incredible moments this season. 4th highest scoring game ever recorded. Incredible 50 piece on Christmas against a rival. Managed to come back as one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Improved his FT%. Basically every single critique we've had of Luka year over year he improved upon this year.

Carried the team to 50 wins despite having the most injuries on the roster for a Western Conference playoff team. Played at a 60 win pace with everyone healthy. 

Jokic deserves the MVP. But so does Luka.

One has been better than the other. So one deserves it more. That's the player that should win it. Don't want Luka to win an narrative award. I know that it happened in the past but more often than not it doesn't end well for the player that was gifted an MVP (Embiid, Rose...). Jokic is the undisputed best player in the league. Luka can challenge him for that spot in the coming years (so will others, Wemby is coming...) but this year Jokic was better.

Jokic is slowly transitioning away from the MVP/best player right now debate. Question should be about him compared to other all time greats.

[F Gump]

Jokic is slowly transitioning away from the MVP/best player right now debate. Question should be about him compared to other all time greats.

Even though MVP is a regular season award, titles and relative greatness do come into play. 

Jokic may lose some MVP votes this year, based on his relative standing as an "all-time great." The number of players in NBA history who have won 3-or-more MVPs is very short, and the fact Jokic has only won 1 title doesn't quite align with putting him in that pantheon.

The same is true for Giannis.

Jokic is on track to win this year, but I also think a significant number of voters are looking for someone else. And if Jokic wins and DEN does not win the title, I think Jokic's chances of future MVP's will be hammered.

What holds Luka back is lack of much team or playoff success up to this point in his career, and this year's playoffs will have an impact on his future chances. If the Mavs make it farther than DEN, voters are likely to think "We owe Luka an MVP" if Jokic wins it.

Tatum will get votes due to team success, and he could land in that "owe you one" category if BOS wins the title. I don't think a Finals berth would be enough.

Counting stats also carry more weight than we realize -- so Luka's scoring title and closeness to a season Triple Double will also come into play, as will his multiple years of elite play (as compared to SGA, for example).

Even though rarely mentioned at the time, the "all-time history" issue was a large obstacle against Jokic for last year's MVP, since winning MVP 3-in-a-row is even more rarified air. I think it's only Russell, Chamberlain, Bird.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Even though MVP is a regular season award, titles and relative greatness do come into play. 

Jokic may lose some MVP votes this year, based on his relative standing as an "all-time great." The number of players in NBA history who have won 3-or-more MVPs is very short, and the fact Jokic has only won 1 title doesn't quite align with putting him in that pantheon.

The same is true for Giannis.

Jokic is on track to win this year, but I also think a significant number of voters are looking for someone else. And if Jokic wins and DEN does not win the title, I think Jokic's chances of future MVP's will be hammered.

What holds Luka back is lack of much team or playoff success up to this point in his career, and this year's playoffs will have an impact on his future chances. If the Mavs make it farther than DEN, voters are likely to think "We owe Luka an MVP" if Jokic wins it.

Tatum will get votes due to team success, and he could land in that "owe you one" category if BOS wins the title. I don't think a Finals berth would be enough.

Counting stats also carry more weight than we realize -- so Luka's scoring title and closeness to a season Triple Double will also come into play, as will his multiple years of elite play (as compared to SGA, for example).

Even though rarely mentioned at the time, the "all-time history" issue was a large obstacle against Jokic for last year's MVP, since winning MVP 3-in-a-row is even more rarified air. I think it's only Russell, Chamberlain, Bird.

Agreed. But Luka has to win a title first before he gets real serious consideration for MVP. All the others you named have done so.

[F Gump]

Agreed. But Luka has to win a title first before he gets real serious consideration for MVP. All the others you named have done so.

Not true in the least for the 1st MVP. And maybe for 2. Scanning the last 15 years or so ...

Giannis won TWO titles before winning MVP.

As did Jokic. TWO.

LBJ won TWO before skipping town and trying for a title elsewhere.

Nash won TWO and never won a title.

Embiid has won MVP with no title. As has Harden. And Westbrook. Durant's MVP was with OKC, before he skipped town to glom onto GS title-winners. Rose has never won a title. Dirk's was before winning a title.

If you have a great year and look like you WILL likely win a title one day, and especially if that's maybe this year, that seems to be enough for the 1st MVP. That was the context for Curry's 1st MVP. And that sort of promise is maybe enough to get 2.

But when it gets to being awarded 3, it seems to be a different ballgame. Not only must you win a title for that level, but history shows voters expect multiple titles to be placed on that level, because that's really the upper pantheon of the NBA.

[Reunion Mav]

Agreed. But Luka has to win a title first before he gets real serious consideration for MVP. All the others you named have done so.

Or get screwed out of a title like Dirk did followed by an epic team and individual regular season in 2007.

[dirkfansince1998]

For me Jokic has elevated himself into his own tier compared to the rest but I get what FGump is saying. LBJ was the best player for at least 5-6 years and at some point it started to hurt him in the MVP race. Same for Jordan. But I think after last years snub they cannot ignore him in consecutive seasons.

It's always difficult to compare players from different eras but as far as statistical dominance goes Jokic is up there with the very best.

Just looking at some all time rankings for single seasons.

WS/48
10th 22/23 Jokic
12th 20/21 Jokic
16th 21/22 Jokic
19th 23/24 Jokic
...
40th 06/07 Dirk
44th 05/06 Dirk
...
Luka isn't making the top 250.

Only players with better seasons. Abdul Jabbar 3x, Chamberlain, Jordan 2x, LBJ 2x, Curry

BPM
1st 21/22 Jokic
2nd 23/24 Jokic
3rd 08/09 LBJ
4th 22/23 Jokic
5th 87/88 Jordan
6th 20/21 Jokic
...
32nd 23/24 Doncic
63rd 22/23 Doncic

VORP

8th 23/24 Jokic
15th 21/22 Jokic
...
56th 23/24 Doncic

Only players with better seasons Jordan 5x, LBJ, Robinson


And that's only the boxscore part. On/off, +/- metrics might be even more impressive. Allstars with +20 on/off since 2000.

Jokic 2x, Garnett 2x, Nowitzki, Curry, Draymond, LBJ, CP3


Only thing missing for Jokic to enter the Mount Rushmore conversation is even more team success. As far as numbers and accolades go he is already there. That's why it is so hard for me to compare him to any other player that is currently in the league.

[BolsDamols]

Anyone watching Knicks Celtics? Celtics obviously has nothing to play for, but Jalen Brunson has been the best player on the court.

Got picked up full court by Jalen Brown, got switched to Jason Tatum at the 3 pt line, and he just went by him and scored.  Next possession its Jrue Holiday's turn, Brunson torches him anyway. So shifty and offbeat, does his damage in a totally different way than Kyrie.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Anyone watching Knicks Celtics? Celtics obviously has nothing to play for, but Jalen Brunson has been the best player on the court.

Got picked up full court by Jalen Brown, got switched to Jason Tatum at the 3 pt line, and he just went by him and scored.  Next possession its Jrue Holiday's turn, Brunson torches him anyway. So shifty and offbeat, does his damage in a totally different way than Kyrie.

Brunson is amazing. Knicks are up big. He's trying to become the 1st Knicks player to score 40 pts in 3 str8 games since Carmelo Anthony. He has 39 pts but he may be done for the night, he's on the bench early in the 4th. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect him to be this good. Teams are double teaming him now to slow him down. He's barely 6 ft tall. Awesome.

[The Jom]

For me Jokic has elevated himself into his own tier compared to the rest but I get what FGump is saying. LBJ was the best player for at least 5-6 years and at some point it started to hurt him in the MVP race. Same for Jordan. But I think after last years snub they cannot ignore him in consecutive seasons.

It's always difficult to compare players from different eras but as far as statistical dominance goes Jokic is up there with the very best.

Just looking at some all time rankings for single seasons.

WS/48
10th 22/23 Jokic
12th 20/21 Jokic
16th 21/22 Jokic
19th 23/24 Jokic
...
40th 06/07 Dirk
44th 05/06 Dirk
...
Luka isn't making the top 250.

Only players with better seasons. Abdul Jabbar 3x, Chamberlain, Jordan 2x, LBJ 2x, Curry

BPM
1st 21/22 Jokic
2nd 23/24 Jokic
3rd 08/09 LBJ
4th 22/23 Jokic
5th 87/88 Jordan
6th 20/21 Jokic
...
32nd 23/24 Doncic
63rd 22/23 Doncic

VORP

8th 23/24 Jokic
15th 21/22 Jokic
...
56th 23/24 Doncic

Only players with better seasons Jordan 5x, LBJ, Robinson


And that's only the boxscore part. On/off, +/- metrics might be even more impressive. Allstars with +20 on/off since 2000.

Jokic 2x, Garnett 2x, Nowitzki, Curry, Draymond, LBJ, CP3


Only thing missing for Jokic to enter the Mount Rushmore conversation is even more team success. As far as numbers and accolades go he is already there. That's why it is so hard for me to compare him to any other player that is currently in the league.

One of the greatest ever, if your numbers are to be believed. Surrounded by a terrific cast. A very good coach. And that ridiculously unfair altitude advantage in the playoffs. And yet, pretty modest off-season success. How can that be? 

I’m no expert. But I disbelieve your numbers. No coincidence, in my mind, that centers like Jokic and Embiid have monster numbers in the regular season against the field. There just aren’t many real centers any more. Which is why you should take Gafford’s record-setting FG streak with a grain of salt. He’s definitely not the best since Wilt. And there’s no way I’d vote Joker a 3-time MVP.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

So let me understand what you're saying The Jom, you think the Joker is playing with a clear advantage over other MVP candidates because of how good his team is and where they play? And even though you wouldn't vote for him to win his 3rd MVP, he's the odds on favorite inspite of Luka's and SGA's remarkable seasons.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

One of the greatest ever, if your numbers are to be believed. Surrounded by a terrific cast. A very good coach. And that ridiculously unfair altitude advantage in the playoffs. And yet, pretty modest off-season success. How can that be? 

I’m no expert. But I disbelieve your numbers. No coincidence, in my mind, that centers like Jokic and Embiid have monster numbers in the regular season against the field. There just aren’t many real centers any more. Which is why you should take Gafford’s record-setting FG streak with a grain of salt. He’s definitely not the best since Wilt. And there’s no way I’d vote Joker a 3-time MVP.

 Murray was hurt. He didn’t play in the playoffs in 21 or 22. They won the title in 23 the first time he was healthy for this current Nuggets team.

[SleepingHero]

@Jim_Eichenhofer
New Orleans is the first team since #NBA became a 30-team league in 2004-05 to beat an opponent five times in the same season

[Winter]

The Kawhi Leonard injury remains "mysterious". He has had an MRI but no one has commented outside of that. On April 5, they said they thought he might be available to play the last 2-3 regular season games. Clearly that's not happening now. His injury on the knee is the same knee he's had problems with before. He's listed as "out" for tonight's game. It's possible he plays the last game of the season, but perhaps more likely we won't know anything until just before the play-offs.