TDL Archived: The 2nd Rnd Pick Yankee Swap

[KillerLeft]

Murray just made an all-star team? He was the engine that drove the Spurs to the play in as well. I HIGHLY doubt if we swap Brunson with Murray the Spurs are as successful.

Yeah, I guess I just view Brunson much differently than you. 

He's an OFFENSIVE creator, and one of the better ones in the league. My dude's mid-range iso and pnr game is flat out sick. 

You can convince me that Murray might fit better with Luka, but I'm not there right now, and I don't think for a second that Murray would be an all star here with Luka. I like him, but not 3 picks worth.

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Even if the salary ballast is Bertans or THJ?

I would love to move them for Murray. 

...just not along with THREE future 1sts. 

I feel like I'm the only one who remembers how sure we all were about KP. We ALL hate not having those picks available, right? And he seemed like MUCH more of a sure thing than Murray. I'm sorry - I'm out on that big swing deal until it's the RIGHT big swing deal.

[Mavsfan12]

It's a lot of talent inserted, sure. 

But, Brunson is the best player of the bunch without a doubt. Like, zero doubt. 

And, without the ability to trade future firsts (if you throw THREE future firsts in!!!) your team building has basically concluded well into Luka's next contract, which, under this hypothetical, is very likely with another team.

I can't believe you think that.  Like NO WAY you believe that.  Even if you think JB to be the superior offensive player, and to me that is close, you have to concede that Murray is elite defensively while JB is bottom 25% in the league.  On top of that, JB is going to cost 10M more per the next two seasons...  At the same cost on their contract, for THIS mavs team, I take murray 100/100.

[KillerLeft]

I can't believe you think that.  Like NO WAY you believe that.  Even if you think JB to be the superior offensive player, and to me that is close, you have to concede that Murray is elite defensively while JB is bottom 25% in the league.  On top of that, JB is going to cost 10M more per the next two seasons...  At the same cost on their contract, for THIS mavs team, I take murray 100/100.

I do believe that. 

I do NOT believe that Brunson is "bottom 25% in the league" defensively. Far from it. He wasn't even the guy who got targeted on this team in the playoffs. 

That's fine if you prefer Murray for this team, next to Luka. I could be talked into that part, but I'm sorry, he's not the missing piece and there is no chance in hell I'm giving THREE first rounders (basically all future trade possibility) for him.

[Mavsfan12]

I do believe that. 

I do NOT believe that Brunson is "bottom 25% in the league" defensively. Far from it. He wasn't even the guy who got targeted on this team in the playoffs. 

That's fine if you prefer Murray for this team, next to Luka. I could be talked into that part, but I'm sorry, he's not the missing piece and there is no chance in hell I'm giving THREE first rounders (basically all future trade possibility) for him.

The 3 frp's were not all coming from us...  NY was sending 2 for JB.  From the Mavs, it was JB + 1FRP.  Does that change your take? 

Either way, the issue I have with your take was you thinking that JB is the better of the two players, which I just can't imagine you will think if you break it down - especially for THIS Mavs team - a team that was hurting so hard for D that we were basically playing DFS/Bullock 80min/game.

[omahen]

I do NOT believe that Brunson is "bottom 25% in the league" defensively. Far from it. He wasn't even the guy who got targeted on this team in the playoffs. 

I think Brunson did well defensively. But, Mavs were hiding him through whole playoffs. He was mostly on Royce against Utah, Bridges on Phoenix and Draymond on GSW. Murray would be on complitely different players. 

Luka was targeted because it makes sense to make the offensive focal point work on defensive side. Same as Mavs were targeting CP3, for example.

[KillerLeft]

Either way, the issue I have with your take was you thinking that JB is the better of the two players,

I'm sorry you have an issue with this. That is how I feel. I have a ton of respect for Brunson's game. I can see that many around here don't have as much, which is fine. I think he is top 10 in the league at THE most important skill of the modern NBA, particularly on THIS team that runs soooooo much pick and roll.

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Luka was targeted because it makes sense to make the offensive focal point work on defensive side. Same as Mavs were targeting CP3, for example.

I'm not trying to make this "Luka vs. Brunson" on the defensive end. I just don't think Brunson's defense is anywhere remotely close to the negative that people claim here cavalierly on a daily basis.

[omahen]

I'm not trying to make this "Luka vs. Brunson" on the defensive end. I just don't think Brunson's defense is anywhere remotely close to the negative that people claim here cavalierly on a daily basis.

He is not bad, but Murray is one of the best in the league. While scoring 20 ppg and almost registering a triple double average with assists and rebounds.

[KillerLeft]

While scoring 20 ppg and almost registering a triple double average with assists and rebounds.

Will he do that here with Luka? 

If you remember, the thing we were all worried about with Brunson next to Luka was playing off-ball? He wasn't a finished product there yet, but he was doing much better than expected, and it was working. How's Murray's catch and shoot game? Because if he can't play off-ball, it's not even worth discussing. It will be Josh Richardson all over again. So far, Brunson and Hardaway are the only players who have fit in a backcourt with Luka, and they've tried several. 

And flip it - put Brunson in SA, running the show for them as the lead ball-handler, in place of Murray. Do you think they would've been better than SA has been recently? I believe that HARD.

[Mavsfan12]

Will he do that here with Luka? 

If you remember, the thing we were all worried about with Brunson next to Luka was playing off-ball? He wasn't a finished product there yet, but he was doing much better than expected, and it was working. How's Murray's catch and shoot game? Because if he can't play off-ball, it's not even worth discussing. It will be Josh Richardson all over again. So far, Brunson and Hardaway are the only players who have fit in a backcourt with Luka, and they've tried several. 

And flip it - put Brunson in SA, running the show for them as the lead ball-handler, in place of Murray. Do you think they would've been better than SA has been recently? I believe that HARD.

I think that his 3pt shooting drop off is a significant issue.  No doubt.  I think that his Pick and roll offense would be fine here - with the MAVS personnel/scheme.  Those are the two issues that are debatable.  

He is a driving machine.  He is a significantly better distributor - albeit with more TO's.  He is a force in transition. He is elite defensively.

I think if you switched Murray and JB last year, the Mavs are better and the Spurs are worse.  I don't think that they are even that close when compared to one another for their entire games.  I also think that it solves our defensive guard issue and allows bullock/DFS to defend more wings - that Murray's defensive presence is felt throughout the lineup and makes us a better defensive team - especially if we are rolling out Wood at C.

[Kammrath]

RE: Brunson vs. Dejounte

6'4" wingspan vs. 6'10" wingspan

Dejounte is CLEARLY better than JB.

[KillerLeft]

I think if you switched Murray and JB last year, the Mavs are better and the Spurs are worse.

Hard disagree on this point. 

Murray is available specifically because he's not good enough as a lead guard to play that role for a playoff team. I think he's pretty valuable for the right team as a top-end role player, but not 3 firsts valuable. I think that's ridiculous. At the same time, multiple teams are fawning over Brunson because they believe he's their lead guard of the future. I get that the most serious of them is NY, who doesn't have the best track record, and he might not be good enough to right that sinking ship, but what Brunson offers is objectively the most valuable thing in the league right now. 

Again, you could convince me that Murray is a better fit for Dallas if his off-ball game is good enough, but at this time I'm not sure that it is. My point was about the better overall player, and I'm sorry - the offensive creator is always going to be the most valuable. I can't take Murray seriously in that role because the Spurs haven't been a good team, despite him having several chances to lead them in that capacity. 

Remember how quickly it was evident that Luka was making this team better? I'm not holding either Brunson or Murray to that ridiculous standard, but I strongly believe that the reason Brunson is such a hot commodity right now is that teams without lead guards know he's about to be one of the best.

[Mavsfan12]

Hard disagree on this point. 

Murray is available specifically because he's not good enough as a lead guard to play that role for a playoff team. At the same time, multiple teams are fawning over Brunson because they believe he's their lead guard of the future. I get that the most serious of them is NY, who doesn't have the best track record, and he might not be good enough to right that sinking ship, but what Brunson offers is objectively the most valuable thing in the league right now. 

Again, you could convince me that Murray is a better fit for Dallas if his off-ball game is good enough, but at this time I'm not sure that it is. My point was about the better overall player, and I'm sorry - the offensive creator is always going to be the most valuable. I can't take Murray seriously in that role because the Spurs haven't been a good team, despite having several chances to lead the team in that capacity. 

Remember how quickly it was evident that Luka was making this team better? I'm not holding either Brunson or Murray to that ridiculous standard, but I strongly believe that the reason Brunson is such a hot commodity right now is that teams without lead guards know he's about to be one of the best.

Yeah, I think Brunson is maximizing his potential right now.  He might get better counting stats going to a team like NY, but his efficiency will likely go down.  He's like Brogdon when he was in MIL vs IND.  That's the way I view him.  No one views Brogdon the same now, either.  Murray's efficiency would go UP playing next to Luka, as would the Mav's team defense, having an ace to throw at the opposing team's top guard, while still being able to throw out 2 more wing defenders.  I value that.  And I think Murray is a very good distributor/offensive threat in his own right.  He get's his teammates good looks.  Brunson is a 2guard in a PG frame.  THJ/Bertans would be more valuable here with Murray vs Brunson.  It would be less your turn/my turn with Doncic, as Murray would be able to set up Doncic with open looks more often.  Then there is the transition game, which is non-existent currently in DAL. 

Look, I like JB.  But I don't know if I like him 25M a year.  I know that MC doesn't, or he would have jumped at 13M/year at the TDL.  I certainly don't view him as an allstar level talent - on offense or defense.  If Murray is on the table, I would be VERY interested in flipping Brunson for him.  I really don't think he is though - I am just amazed that you would choose Brunson over him straight up.  That is the most surprising thing to me.

[KillerLeft]

I am just amazed that you would choose Brunson over him straight up.  That is the most surprising thing to me.

Happy I could amaze you! I would certainly do that, and without hesitation.

[mvossman]

Hard disagree on this point. 

Murray is available specifically because he's not good enough as a lead guard to play that role for a playoff team. I think he's pretty valuable for the right team as a top-end role player, but not 3 firsts valuable. I think that's ridiculous. At the same time, multiple teams are fawning over Brunson because they believe he's their lead guard of the future. I get that the most serious of them is NY, who doesn't have the best track record, and he might not be good enough to right that sinking ship, but what Brunson offers is objectively the most valuable thing in the league right now. 

Again, you could convince me that Murray is a better fit for Dallas if his off-ball game is good enough, but at this time I'm not sure that it is. My point was about the better overall player, and I'm sorry - the offensive creator is always going to be the most valuable. I can't take Murray seriously in that role because the Spurs haven't been a good team, despite him having several chances to lead them in that capacity. 

Remember how quickly it was evident that Luka was making this team better? I'm not holding either Brunson or Murray to that ridiculous standard, but I strongly believe that the reason Brunson is such a hot commodity right now is that teams without lead guards know he's about to be one of the best.

This is a strange argument.  Murray is not as good as Luka, I will give you that.  He can't carry a team like Luka can.  Neither can Brunson.  The reason they are shopping Murray is that he is not Luka, they are in total rebuild mode, and he is the best asset they have by far.  Murray is a better scorer, distributer, rebounder and wildly better defender than Brunson.  Brunson is more efficient offensively, but Murray is better at just about everything else.  I'm afraid you are going to be on an island to think Brunson is the better player.

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/NoTrade_Clause/statu...5492722690

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/TheHoopCentral/statu...3605371905

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...8186258432

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/mikal_bridges/status...2599569413

[F Gump]

Look, I like JB.  But I don't know if I like him 25M a year.  I know that MC doesn't, or he would have jumped at 13M/year at the TDL. .

In all fairness to Cuban, no one thought JB was worth 25M back then. In fact, there were SERIOUS questions about how effective he would be once the playoffs began - in light of how he wilted in 2021, it was fair to have huge doubts of his ability to overcome his size limits.

The Mavs still offered him 4/55 after the TDL but JB wanted more. But he was still unproven, until the games began.

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I like Murray. 

I do not agree that he's on Holiday's level, and I will be shocked if they get 3 1sts for him. If they do, I sure hope it's not from the Mavs. I just can't imagine the Mavs willingly putting themselves in a position AGAIN where they can't trade future picks for years and STILL not having that second all star.

If JB was leaving, I would love a Murray trade. Can't imagine that would get to the table, though.

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1540860518688096256