TDL Archived: The 2nd Rnd Pick Yankee Swap

[Scott41theMavs]

No, that's not true. I have painstakingly outlined the timeline for all this stuff in previous posts. But here is one from Stein to highlight the point:

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/...3798606849

How's that wing and Dragic stuff coming? I'll hang up and listen.

[ItsGoTime]

No, that's not true. I have painstakingly outlined the timeline for all this stuff in previous posts. But here is one from Stein to highlight the point:

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/...3798606849

Hmmm, this basically says THJ is the 3rd guard/ball handler. Wonder if Kidd saw enough from him in practice to think he’ll bandaid fine til his value goes up and we trade him for the right piece. At least enough to not make the other guard a top priority.


I myself haven’t seen enough from him to suggest that, but I guess, who am I? 

So the guard rotation would be Luka, SD and THJ with Luka and SD starting but after that, one of them is on the court with THJ at all times. I honestly like that more than THJ as a Bullock/DFS replacement (then Hardy/Dorsey steps in for injury/rest games for the 3). Green, Frank and Maxi/Wood coming in for those two makes the defensive drop off much less. Adding a more surely capable wing to supplant Green or Frank would be better, unless they take a large leap this year.

Big rotation of McGee/Wood/Maxi/Bertans/Powell with Powell and Bertans playing the rest/injury insurance role I think is set, unless we can use Powell/Bertans to get us that wing at some point (if the younguns don’t make the necessary leap). McGee starts with Wood and Maxi backing up the 4 and 5 spots.

[mvossman]

Hmmm, this basically says THJ is the 3rd guard/ball handler. Wonder if Kidd saw enough from him in practice to think he’ll bandaid fine til his value goes up and we trade him for the right piece. At least enough to not make the other guard a top priority.


I myself haven’t seen enough from him to suggest that, but I guess, who am I? 

So the guard rotation would be Luka, SD and THJ with Luka and SD starting but after that, one of them is on the court with THJ at all times. I honestly like that more than THJ as a Bullock/DFS replacement (then Hardy/Dorsey steps in for injury/rest games for the 3). Green, Frank and Maxi/Wood coming in for those two makes the defensive drop off much less. Adding a more surely capable wing to supplant Green or Frank would be better, unless they take a large leap this year.

Big rotation of McGee/Wood/Maxi/Bertans/Powell with Powell and Bertans playing the rest/injury insurance role I think is set, unless we can use Powell/Bertans to get us that wing at some point (if the younguns don’t make the necessary leap). McGee starts with Wood and Maxi backing up the 4 and 5 spots.

This is mostly how I see it as well.  There will generally be 2 of Luka/Din/THJ on the court.  The 3 spot will generally be Bullock and Dorian (who will play more 3 with two bigs).  The 5 and 4 spot will generally be McGee/Dorian or Maxi/Wood  There will probably be some McGee/Wood or Wood/Dorian but I think those first two will be by far the most common.  My understanding is that they are planning on bringing Wood off the bench, at least to start, and I think a big part of that is to pair him with Maxi.  Regardless of who is starting, I'm guessing the finishing lineup will be Maxi/Wood.

That would be the 7 man group for the playoffs.  The main backups after that are Powell/Bertans/Green/Frank.  They are really missing a guy the equivalent of those guys for backup point.  Dragic would have been perfect, but I can see where it would be hard to get him regular minutes thus the "cheerleading" comment.

[ItsGoTime]

This is mostly how I see it as well.  There will generally be 2 of Luka/Din/THJ on the court.  The 3 spot will generally be Bullock and Dorian (who will play more 3 with two bigs).  The 5 and 4 spot will generally be McGee/Dorian or Maxi/Wood  There will probably be some McGee/Wood or Wood/Dorian but I think those first two will be by far the most common.  My understanding is that they are planning on bringing Wood off the bench, at least to start, and I think a big part of that is to pair him with Maxi.  Regardless of who is starting, I'm guessing the finishing lineup will be Maxi/Wood.

That would be the 7 man group for the playoffs.  The main backups after that are Powell/Bertans/Green/Frank.  They are really missing a guy the equivalent of those guys for backup point.  Dragic would have been perfect, but I can see where it would be hard to get him regular minutes thus the "cheerleading" comment.

Yes, I think the closing lineup will be:


Luka
Best for situation between SD, THJ or RB
Best for situation between RB or DFS
Best for situation between DFS or Maxi
Wood

Where Luka, DFS and Wood (Maxi could supplant Wood at least to start the season due to teammate familiarity) are probably the constants. Kidd will have the ability to see what is working throughout the game and put the best counter on the court in the end.

[ItsGoTime]

Thinking about this lull and the prediction that Collins will not be on the Hawks to start the season. Also thinking with the addition of Murray, Bogi is not needed there as much anymore. This trade can’t happen til Aug 30th due to Harkless.

THJ/Wood/Kleber for Collins/Bogi/Harkless

No picks either way. I’d much rather give Powell instead of Maxi, but I think Atl would need more compensation if that change were to happen (if they would even do it at all). However, this trade gives us players that fill all holes on the roster. The bigs would be the weak spot, but there are plenty of those to be had currently available or easily traded for. DFS and JC at the 4 and 5 could be a big part of the rotation.

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/...4421848068

[F Gump]

Hmmm, this basically says THJ is the 3rd guard/ball handler. Wonder if Kidd saw enough from him in practice to think he’ll bandaid fine til his value goes up and we trade him for the right piece. At least enough to not make the other guard a top priority.s.

That's a really interesting take  --- that they plan to make THJ, in essence, the 3rd guy (ie give him those minutes) in order to either have a 3rd creator no one anticipated, or to build his value to trade for one.

I haven't seen anyone else offer that analysis, and it does make sense in explaining Dragic and the Mavs' inaction in general. It also explains where THJ is going to be used. He certainly doesn't have the defensive chops to rotate with DFS/Bullock and be the 3rd wing. Well done.

[Mapka]

Thinking about this lull and the prediction that Collins will not be on the Hawks to start the season. Also thinking with the addition of Murray, Bogi is not needed there as much anymore. This trade can’t happen til Aug 30th due to Harkless.

THJ/Wood/Kleber for Collins/Bogi/Harkless

No picks either way. I’d much rather give Powell instead of Maxi, but I think Atl would need more compensation if that change were to happen (if they would even do it at all). However, this trade gives us players that fill all holes on the roster. The bigs would be the weak spot, but there are plenty of those to be had currently available or easily traded for. DFS and JC at the 4 and 5 could be a big part of the rotation.

That's moving much needed real shooting into Jack-of-all-trades offense or no offense.

We need a real playmaker/scorer, no tertiary skills.

[mvossman]

Thinking about this lull and the prediction that Collins will not be on the Hawks to start the season. Also thinking with the addition of Murray, Bogi is not needed there as much anymore. This trade can’t happen til Aug 30th due to Harkless.

THJ/Wood/Kleber for Collins/Bogi/Harkless

No picks either way. I’d much rather give Powell instead of Maxi, but I think Atl would need more compensation if that change were to happen (if they would even do it at all). However, this trade gives us players that fill all holes on the roster. The bigs would be the weak spot, but there are plenty of those to be had currently available or easily traded for. DFS and JC at the 4 and 5 could be a big part of the rotation.

I don't think I send out Maxi in that trade.  He is too good a fit with either Wood or Collins.  I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Collins is over Wood.  I would be good with a Timmy for Bogdan trade, but not enough to throw in Maxi, and I have no interest in Harkless.  Would rather see Green on the court than Harkless.

EDIT: I would be good with THJ/Wood/Green for Collins/Bogi.  Not sure how much that would interest Atlanta, but Green does bring defense they need.

[ItsGoTime]

That's moving much needed real shooting into Jack-of-all-trades offense or no offense. 

We need a real playmaker/scorer, no tertiary skills.

With Bullock and DFS we have plenty of minutes of stationary “real” shooting. I see Collins as an upgrade to Wood, Bogi as an upgrade and needed playmaker for this team to THJ, then the Maxi for Harkless is the ballast. I think this upgrades our defense and offense based on the 2 players and Harkless can be the insurance if the 2 younguns don’t take that leap.


I also think this is a deal Atl would bite on because we can now give them a lower cost slight downgrade for Collins and it helps improve their bench with THJ and Maxi.

[Mapka]

With Bullock and DFS we have plenty of minutes of stationary “real” shooting. I see Collins as an upgrade to Wood, Bogi as an upgrade and needed playmaker for this team to THJ, then the Maxi for Harkless is the ballast. I think this upgrades our defense and offense based on the 2 players and Harkless can be the insurance if the 2 younguns don’t take that leap.


I also think this is a deal Atl would bite on because we can now give them a lower cost slight downgrade for Collins and it helps improve their bench with THJ and Maxi.

Wood is just a wild card for me at this point.
Maybe he is what we hope, maybe not.
If he isn't the trade is okish.
But you need more than 2 players, that can shoot or you will run them into the ground, until they can't anymore.
And tell me what you want, neither Bullock or DFS are the kind if quick semi-set shooter THJ is. They must be set up nearly perfect to be effectiv.

Bogi isn't a playmaker. More than THJ maybe, but we need much more to upset THJs pull.

[ItsGoTime]

I don't think I send out Maxi in that trade.  He is too good a fit with either Wood or Collins.  I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Collins is over Wood.  I would be good with a Timmy for Bogdan trade, but not enough to throw in Maxi, and I have no interest in Harkless.  Would rather see Green on the court than Harkless.

I for sure struggled with adding Maxi, I even went back and looked at swapping him with Green instead, the difference was $9M in salary, and while the trade machine didn’t list money as the reason the trade failed (Harkless and Wood were the fail reasons) I still didn’t trust that as an option.


I’m not sure I’m with you on Wood=Collins, but I can see why you would say that. If for no other reason than Collins is 2 years younger than Wood, I still think Collins would be the better fit (and trade piece if he doesn’t).

I think Bogi is much more valuable than THJ, especially right now coming off a poor showing and injury. He’s IMO about as good as we can hope for in trading THJ at any point. Esp since losing JB. He’s not THJ AND Maxi better for sure, but I think there is a disparity in Wood for Collins that has to be made up as well. 

Harkless is basically good enough to be insurance for Green and Frank not taking the next step in their development, but not so bad that he can’t be Bullock/DFS backup to spare them from playing 40+ mpg.

[ItsGoTime]

Wood is just a wild card for me at this point.
Maybe he is what we hope, maybe not.
If he isn't the trade is okish.
But you need more than 2 players, that can shoot or you will run them into the ground, until they can't anymore.
And tell me what you want, neither Bullock or DFS are the kind if quick semi-set shooter THJ is. They must be set up nearly perfect to be effectiv.

Bogi isn't a playmaker. More than THJ maybe, but we need much more to upset THJs pull.

Bullock and DFS aren’t the only 2 that can shoot. I talked about them as stationary shooters. Bogi and Collins can shoot too. I think the offense would be a lot better with Collins and Bogi vs Wood and THJ and I really don’t think it’s all that close.

[mvossman]

I for sure struggled with adding Maxi, I even went back and looked at swapping him with Green instead, the difference was $9M in salary, and while the trade machine didn’t list money as the reason the trade failed (Harkless and Wood were the fail reasons) I still didn’t trust that as an option.


I’m not sure I’m with you on Wood=Collins, but I can see why you would say that. If for no other reason than Collins is 2 years younger than Wood, I still think Collins would be the better fit (and trade piece if he doesn’t).

I think Bogi is much more valuable than THJ, especially right now coming off a poor showing and injury. He’s IMO about as good as we can hope for in trading THJ at any point. Esp since losing JB. He’s not THJ AND Maxi better for sure, but I think there is a disparity in Wood for Collins that has to be made up as well. 

Harkless is basically good enough to be insurance for Green and Frank not taking the next step in their development, but not so bad that he can’t be Bullock/DFS backup to spare them from playing 40+ mpg.

So I'm not sure if you caught my edit (I put on your post section instead of mine because I'm a dumbass) but I think Wood/THJ/Green for Collins/Bogdan fits.  I have no interest in Harkless.  We do get thin on 3&D depth without Green (maybe that where Euro guy steps in?) but that is about as far as I would go.  We could send out Frank instead of Green and it still works.

[ItsGoTime]

So I'm not sure if you caught my edit (I put on your post section instead of mine because I'm a dumbass) but I think Wood/THJ/Green for Collins/Bogdan fits.  I have no interest in Harkless.  We do get thin on 3&D depth without Green (maybe that where Euro guy steps in?) but that is about as far as I would go.  We could send out Frank instead of Green and it still works.

If they would do that, I think that would be the most ideal (assuming Green doesn’t reach his FULL potential soon). Would then love to do a Powell and a second (if they play hardball, I’d go 2 seconds) for Crowder.

[Mapka]

Bullock and DFS aren’t the only 2 that can shoot. I talked about them as stationary shooters. Bogi and Collins can shoot too. I think the offense would be a lot better with Collins and Bogi vs Wood and THJ and I really don’t think it’s all that close.

I'm a big fan of Collins, but I'm not convinced Wood can’t give us more than him.

I saw Wood as someone who has problems to buy in on a good team.
Maybe Houston really cured that.

The main problem I have, is Bogi is playing like Luka and will occupie Lukas space without spacing for him or being able to backup him.

Collins is not a spacer, Bogi needs the ball to do something good. They are not "shooters".

[ItsGoTime]

I'm a big fan of Collins, but I'm not convinced Wood can’t give us more than him.

I saw Wood as someone who has problems to buy in on a good team.
Maybe Houston really cured that.

The main problem I have, is Bogi is playing like Luka and will occupie Lukas space without spacing for him or being able to backup him.

Collins is not a spacer, Bogi needs the ball to do something good. They are not "shooters".

I’m for sure hoping for the best from Wood, just not so sure I can trust it all with him. I think Wood’s best is not as good as Collins best. I don’t however want to discount what you and mvossman are saying though cause you could be right.


I’m not sure why you think Bogi, after playing with Fox and Young his whole career wouldn’t play well off ball to Luka while also giving Luka the needed oncourt rest. Bogi, JB and Dinwiddie all have the same usage rate, so to suggest it won’t work is to suggest JB and SD with Luka didn’t work. As long as the usage comes in the flow of an offense and not you go, I go hero ball I think it’s more than fine. That’s on Kidd and the coaching staff to figure that out more than the players in my mind.

I think you either overestimate THJ’s gravity or you underestimate Collins and Bogi’s.

[ItsGoTime]

Might I also say. Had we resigned JB, THJ would have very little room for playing time as I believe SD would have gotten the nod over him for G minutes and he’s a bad choice to spell Bullock or DFS.

[mvossman]

I'm a big fan of Collins, but I'm not convinced Wood can’t give us more than him.

I saw Wood as someone who has problems to buy in on a good team.
Maybe Houston really cured that.

The main problem I have, is Bogi is playing like Luka and will occupie Lukas space without spacing for him or being able to backup him.

Collins is not a spacer, Bogi needs the ball to do something good. They are not "shooters".

Bogi has been consistently getting up over 7 3s a game while hitting over 38% for his career.  I'm not sure why he wouldn't space the floor for Luka?  He seems like a better off ball option than Brunson (who put up half those 3s at a lower percentage).

[F Gump]

Not seeing any reason ATL would be looking for a trade like this.