GAME 68: DAL (42-26) vs. BOS (41-28)| 95-92 WIN!

[Mavsfan12]

I guess I'm in the minority. I don't think Powell is the absolute ideal starter, but I also don't think he's some huge weakness. I wish there was a cheap option to go a little bigger playing behind Powell and Kleber, but I actually have quite a bit of faith in both of those players. 

I prefer either of them over Porzingis, for example, especially in the playoffs. 

It's true that if one of them gets worn down/hurt the team is in a lot of trouble, but I don't know that any team is well suited to endure such a situation. 

The guy I'm most worried about is Bullock, personally. If I were to choose the area most in need of upgrade it would be his role. That's not to suggest I think he's terrible or anything, I just think he's the worst starter.

I love what Bull does for this team.  I don't know where his shot goes sometimes, and of course that is an issue.  But he always brings the D 1-4.  Along with DFS being a 2-5 guy, we have 2 solid defenders in our starting 5.  Powell is a heady player and plays hard.  His game is solid, no doubt, but it would be nice to have a bit more defensive anchor around the rim.  His perimeter, pnr D is solid though.  We will just have to see what is more painful, getting killed at the rim/out rebounded, or defending in space.  Clearly, the Mavs think it is the defending in space piece right now, and our highly rated defense would seem to back that up. It just sucks seeing the layup line happen and giving up offensive rebounds. Goes against basketball nature and just feels wrong!

[mvossman]

I guess I'm in the minority. I don't think Powell is the absolute ideal starter, but I also don't think he's some huge weakness. I wish there was a cheap option to go a little bigger playing behind Powell and Kleber, but I actually have quite a bit of faith in both of those players. 

I prefer either of them over Porzingis, for example, especially in the playoffs. 

It's true that if one of them gets worn down/hurt the team is in a lot of trouble, but I don't know that any team is well suited to endure such a situation. 

The guy I'm most worried about is Bullock, personally. If I were to choose the area most in need of upgrade it would be his role. That's not to suggest I think he's terrible or anything, I just think he's the worst starter.

I feel like all three guys (Powell, Maxi, Bullock) are all quality role players that are ideally not in your starting lineup (or more importantly your finishing lineup).  Its an issue this team has had for years, not enough starter quality players.  The problem is exacerbated right now because we have 4 starter level players and 3 of them are PGs.

[Jommybone]

Playoff closing lineup:
Luka
Dinwiddie
Bullock
DFS
Maxi

I guess we’ll see what this group can do. Even if we got Holmes though i still think we run out this same lineup.

Dear JET, I love every single one of your posts. Till I get to the end and realize you’ve subtlety landed yet another dig on Brunson. I’d think an undersized scoring guard like yourself would realize what a gem he truly is. But I guess we all have our flaws, and I can forgive you for this one.

[Winter]

Personally, I don't feel like there are any starters in "bad" need of an upgrade. Our rotation players need an upgrade at certain positions, but not so much the starters. I believe Bullock is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing... and Powell too for the most part.

I've never fully understood the disdain for Powell. His problem now is only with a peculiar mismatch at the center position. He can be bullied. But finding a replacement means finding a replacement who can't be bullied, AND who is just as smart and adaptable on the pick-and-roll, the ability to screen well, and to be able to move through switches defending wings. That's not that easy to replace. Centers who great at rebounds generally aren't guys who great at guarding wings on the perimeter. 

We probably don't give our offensive and defensive "systems" enough credit... and our player's collective intelligence at knowing where to be within the system. We have a low turnover rate, and I think a high IQ system that every player has bought into. We were lucky Dinwiddie found his footing so quickly. It appears to be very good chemistry.

In regards to upgrades, I think Kleber has a short shelf-life and will probably need replacing soon - which will be difficult. Bertans will likely need another home at that salary even if his shot improves. You could trade for a stronger rotation with any combination of those players plus Burke, Green, Frankie, Boban and Brown. That's your working group (right now) to provide one or two stronger rotation players. You certainly need a one or two big players who can at least rebound. Any trade right now that includes Including Green will likely need to be a significant trade with someone needing to shed a solid 25-30 MPG player. Same with Hardaway should he be traded. I personally think Hardaway is a good anchor for this rotation currently, so we'd better get something in return. The rest of the starters are running like a well-oiled machine. Taking out Boston on their home court was nothing short of miraculous. Their defense was the best I'd seen this season in the NBA.

[ItsGoTime]

I feel like all three guys (Powell, Maxi, Bullock) are all quality role players that are ideally not in your starting lineup (or more importantly your finishing lineup).  Its an issue this team has had for years, not enough starter quality players.  The problem is exacerbated right now because we have 4 starter level players and 3 of them are PGs.

I’m here. I like our 2 home grown guys as backups, I wish our FO would get over them being starters (and have been hoping the recent change of bodies in there would bear that out). There is no world in my mind that has us winning a championship with either one starting, and I really have a hard time believing anyone else has that belief. 


I’ve viewed the years of starting Powell as him being a placeholder for the eventual right replacement and him being the perfect change of pace/different look backup. I see how that isn’t how Cuban thinks, but figured he’d eventually come around. Another thing about him starting, he isn’t that spring chicken anymore, how does he age in the coming years? Cuban likes to say father time is undefeated, well, he let go of Nash because of Father time.

I want Powell and Maxi on the team, but if they are the hold up to getting this team to the next level, I have no problem parting with either of them. That goes for anyone not named Luka.

[SwisherPrice]

Long-term, the future of the center position is finding a Maxi Kleber upgrade. It won't be easy since there are not many 3 and D big men out there but that's what they need to be trying to find players out there to develop in the next couple of years. Kleber is limited on offense but he's the only PF/C with 3-pt ability that can defend.

They need that 3-pt threat for floor spacing...if I'm defenses though, I will start leaving Kleber wide open like the Knicks did until he proves he can make those shots. And then that's where he becomes a liability since he can't really score in many other ways if he's not making threes. This has been a brutal stretch of shooting for him since the All Star break, not sure what happened

[mvossman]

Personally, I don't feel like there are any starters in "bad" need of an upgrade. Our rotation players need an upgrade at certain positions, but not so much the starters. I believe Bullock is doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing... and Powell too for the most part.

I've never fully understood the disdain for Powell. His problem now is only with a peculiar mismatch at the center position. He can be bullied. But finding a replacement means finding a replacement who can't be bullied, AND who is just as smart and adaptable on the pick-and-roll, the ability to screen well, and to be able to move through switches defending wings. That's not that easy to replace. Centers who great at rebounds generally aren't guys who great at guarding wings on the perimeter. 

We probably don't give our offensive and defensive "systems" enough credit... and our player's collective intelligence at knowing where to be within the system. We have a low turnover rate, and I think a high IQ system that every player has bought into. We were lucky Dinwiddie found his footing so quickly. It appears to be very good chemistry.

In regards to upgrades, I think Kleber has a short shelf-life and will probably need replacing soon - which will be difficult. Bertans will likely need another home at that salary even if his shot improves. You could trade for a stronger rotation with any combination of those players plus Burke, Green, Frankie, Boban and Brown. That's your working group (right now) to provide one or two stronger rotation players. You certainly need a one or two big players who can at least rebound. Any trade right now that includes Including Green will likely need to be a significant trade with someone needing to shed a solid 25-30 MPG player. Same with Hardaway should he be traded. I personally think Hardaway is a good anchor for this rotation currently, so we'd better get something in return. The rest of the starters are running like a well-oiled machine. Taking out Boston on their home court was nothing short of miraculous. Their defense was the best I'd seen this season in the NBA.

To say that Powell should not be starting/finishing games is not disdain.  He is a quality rotational player, but his lack of rim protection and rebounding is a problem.  I don't think he would be that hard to improve upon.  Holmes is a potential cheap option, but there will be others.

Don't see how we are going to find a home for Bertans.  We don't have the assets to dump that contract right now.

Not sure about THJ.  He lost his starting job and was losing minutes before the injury, and they were supposedly shopping him at the deadline.  That does not sound like a rotation anchor.  He is the more likely candidate to find another home for.  It won't be nearly as expensive to dump him as Bertans.

Of all the players you mentioned, Green is the only one that has any trade value at all.  The rest are salary filler or negative assets.  Its going to be tough to upgrade this roster significantly.  I think the most likely path is to use the pick to both dump salary and upgrade the frontcourt.

[KillerLeft]

Long-term, the future of the center position is finding a Maxi Kleber upgrade.

I mean, I can see where this is coming from, but I'm not sure I agree. 

Jaren Jackson, Bam Adabayo...maybe a few others would be upgrades, but aren't realistically available, like, for anything. Most of the other names I see mentioned here represent two steps backward in the areas of strength for Powell/Kleber (switching, moving their feet) just to move forward a bit in some areas we seem to think are weaknesses. I'm honestly not sure the Mavs even care about those things we're worried about too much, or that they should. 

At the end of the day, I'd rather have mobile guys than strong ones, since there seems to be a non-negotiable choice. This is becoming one of the best defenses in the game, and I keep seeing assumptions that this is developing in spite of Powell/Kleber rather than because of them. I don't see it that way at all.

[ItsGoTime]

I mean, I can see where this is coming from, but I'm not sure I agree. 

Jaren Jackson, Bam Adabayo...maybe a few others would be upgrades, but aren't realistically available, like, for anything. Most of the other names I see mentioned here represent two steps backward in the areas of strength for Powell/Kleber (switching, moving their feet) just to move forward a bit in some areas we seem to think are weaknesses. I'm honestly not sure the Mavs even care about those things we're worried about too much, or that they should. 

At the end of the day, I'd rather have mobile guys than strong ones, since there seems to be a non-negotiable choice. This is becoming one of the best defenses in the game, and I keep seeing assumptions that this is developing in spite of Powell/Kleber rather than because of them. I don't see it that way at all.

I think at the end of the day we need both mobile AND strong guys. I think most playoff teams employ strong guys in their starting lineup and then the more finesse types come in as change of pace/small ball players during the game.

BTW, JJJ is their change of pace C, not their starter.

[KillerLeft]

I think most playoff teams employ strong guys in their starting lineup and then the more finesse types come in as change of pace/small ball players during the game.

Well, other than Gobert, who's a freak, and Denver/Philly, who are built around their centers, offensively, who are you comparing the Mavs to? 

Ayton isn't strong, really. GS will play Green at center in the playoffs more than anyone else. BRK's plan is to roll Simmons/KD out there together as the front line. Giannis will play the 5 most often in the playoffs. Etc, Etc. 

The Celtics (even better defense than the Mavs) play a guy who's smaller than Powell (though he plays pretty big, I'll admit). 

I'm just saying that there are way more threats like that than there are Embiid's. It would be great if the Mavs had Adabayo in place, but there just aren't many players like that in the world. It would also be great if the guy in Boban's spot could actually play in the NBA so you'd have someone to throw at Embiid and others like him, but then again, if doing so requires you to play an entirely different style of defense than what's working for you I think it might be a zero sum game.

[mvossman]

Well, other than Gobert, who's a freak, and Denver/Philly, who are built around their centers, offensively, who are you comparing the Mavs to? 

Ayton isn't strong, really. GS will play Green at center in the playoffs more than anyone else. BRK's plan is to roll Simmons/KD out there together as the front line. Giannis will play the 5 most often in the playoffs. Etc, Etc. 

The Celtics (even better defense than the Mavs) play a guy who's smaller than Powell (though he plays pretty big, I'll admit). 

I'm just saying that there are way more threats like that than there are Embiid's. It would be great if the Mavs had Adabayo in place, but there just aren't many players like that in the world. It would also be great if the guy in Boban's spot could actually play in the NBA so you'd have someone to throw at Embiid and others like him, but then again, if doing so requires you to play an entirely different style of defense than what's working for you I think it might be a zero sum game.

I would argue every one of those guys are better rebounders and rim protectors, and the only ones that are close (Green, Simmons) are elite defensive talents.  Most importantly, all of those guys represent defensive anchors.  The only thing we have close to that is Maxi, but his offensive has been a significant liability in crunch time.  If we are going to finish games with 3 PGs, none of whom are better than average defenders, we really need a defensive anchor that won't kill our offense.

[KillerLeft]

I would argue every one of those guys are better rebounders and rim protectors, and the only ones that are close (Green, Simmons) are elite defensive talents.  Most importantly, all of those guys represent defensive anchors.  The only thing we have close to that is Maxi, but his offensive has been a significant liability in crunch time.  If we are going to finish games with 3 PGs, none of whom are better than average defenders, we really need a defensive anchor that won't kill our offense.

Ok, I'm with you. 

Again, there simply aren't very many of them. All of the known upgrades are ensconced securely on playoff teams. 

Give me Powell, or Kleber (the Mavs have BOTH) over any alternative that can't play pick and roll defense. That's all I'm saying.

[Winter]

To say that Powell should not be starting/finishing games is not disdain.

 

No, you're right. It's just that I don't believe it's easy to replace Powell. I wasn't really commenting on what you said as much as I find it true in social media in general. I just don't really believe trading for Holmes makes a significant difference to our lineup ... or at least not the extant many want and expect. Powell's contract may make him fairly attractive in a package, so it wouldn't surprise me if he gets traded.

Bertans is another matter, but there are still teams willing to dump their contract problems for our contract problems. Somewhere in that mess, you might find a better fit. After all, that's how we got him in the first place. 

I can't imagine keeping Boban or Frankie. Sterling Brown could probably be replaced by Theo Pinson at this point, but he could remain if they can't move him in a package.

In regards to THJ, I just don't think it's really necessary to trade him. He's not a detriment to the team in any way. He's been passed in the rotation and he may even want to be traded now. But guys coming off injuries trend downward in free agency, and it's hard to know what would be equitable.  

Another unknown is how a healthy Marquess Chriss might fit with a training camp under his belt. Health is an issue. If he doesn't play the rest of this season, I can't imagine the Mavs keep him around.

We don't really know what or who the Mavs are targeting in FA. We can probably assume a big man is in the cards somewhere. But our current style of play makes guessing difficult

[ItsGoTime]

Well, other than Gobert, who's a freak, and Denver/Philly, who are built around their centers, offensively, who are you comparing the Mavs to? 

Ayton isn't strong, really. GS will play Green at center in the playoffs more than anyone else. BRK's plan is to roll Simmons/KD out there together as the front line. Giannis will play the 5 most often in the playoffs. Etc, Etc. 

The Celtics (even better defense than the Mavs) play a guy who's smaller than Powell (though he plays pretty big, I'll admit). 

I'm just saying that there are way more threats like that than there are Embiid's. It would be great if the Mavs had Adabayo in place, but there just aren't many players like that in the world. It would also be great if the guy in Boban's spot could actually play in the NBA so you'd have someone to throw at Embiid and others like him, but then again, if doing so requires you to play an entirely different style of defense than what's working for you I think it might be a zero sum game.

Without watching every team play all their games this year, I'm looking at GP and MP for the backups. Top 10 (possible playoff teams) from each conference starting and backup C's.

Utah - Gobert and Whiteside
Denver - Jokic and Cousins
Minnesota - KAT and Reid
Phoenix - Ayton (much stronger than you're giving him credit for) and McGee
GS - Looney, Wiseman and Green (I add Green cause he's the reason teams are looking for the smaller ball big...AND he can bully DP out of the lane).
LAC - Zubac and one of Morris or Covington
LAL - Davis and Howard
Memphis - Adams and JJJ
New Orleans - Valanciunas and Hayes
Philadelphia - Embiid and I can't tell
Boston - Horford and Williams
Toronto - Siakam and Achiuwa
Brooklyn - Drummond and I can't tell
Milwaukee - Brooks and Portis
Chicago - Vucevic and some very small ball option
Cleveland - Allen and Love
Miami - Adebayo and Dedmon
Charlotte - Plumlee and Harrell
Atlanta - Capela and Okongwu

There are very few starting C's on that list that don't have their way with Powell. There are also only a couple starting C's on that list that I take Powell over (Looney and Plumlee...if Drummond comes on a small salary that allows us to sit him when he isn't effective, I prefer him over Powell to start), and the ones I'd do it with, the teams are looking strongly to improve that position. If Powell played bigger than he is like Green or Adebayo does (extreme names I know), I wouldn't be having this conversation, but he doesn't. Some of the backup names have their way with Powell even, but I take Powell's contribution over theirs as a backup.

[Jason Terry]

Dear JET, I love every single one of your posts. Till I get to the end and realize you’ve subtlety landed yet another dig on Brunson. I’d think an undersized scoring guard like yourself would realize what a gem he truly is. But I guess we all have our flaws, and I can forgive you for this one.

Not meant as a slight to Brunson. JET would fly in off the bench and score. He would often not be on the court last few min. I see Brunson in a similar light. Starter minutes and spot starts. Maybe our 2nd or 3rd leading scorer. If he sits though, we have a closing lineup of all 5 players over 6’5”. This is a big lineup that could close games. Luka needs to run the last few min by himself offensively like he’s done in all these clutch games. JET would play last few min if the offense was struggling. I see Brunson doing the same and we run 3 PG’s. Brunson is important

[Jason Terry]

The focus with Powell should be on the screen and roll. This is the premier play in the entire NBA today. It’s everyone’s go-to these days. Powell can do this at an elite level. We have the best PnR guard in the game. This one play will equal success offensively. It’s that simple

The rest of Powell’s game is gravy (i.e. team defense and rebounding and hustle plays).

[ItsGoTime]

The focus with Powell should be on the screen and roll. This is the premier play in the entire NBA today. It’s everyone’s go-to these days. Powell can do this at an elite level. We have the best PnR guard in the game. This one play will equal success offensively. It’s that simple

The rest of Powell’s game is gravy (i.e. team defense and rebounding and hustle plays).

And no other player can do that while adding better gravy.

Edit: also, Dan was JUST talking about in the playoffs, they take away your first move. After pick and roll, where does Powell go?

[Jason Terry]

And no other player can do that while adding better gravy.

Edit: also, Dan was JUST talking about in the playoffs, they take away your first move. After pick and roll, where does Powell go?

Exactly. This is why Powell is a regular season player. Playoffs we lean more on Maxi because perimeter defense and spacing with 3pt shooting becomes more important. It’s why we need both and a 3rd to fill in the gaps between them(rim protection and rebounding)

[KillerLeft]

Without watching every team play all their games this year, I'm looking at GP and MP for the backups. Top 10 (possible playoff teams) from each conference starting and backup C's.

Utah - Gobert and Whiteside
Denver - Jokic and Cousins
Minnesota - KAT and Reid
Phoenix - Ayton (much stronger than you're giving him credit for) and McGee
GS - Looney, Wiseman and Green (I add Green cause he's the reason teams are looking for the smaller ball big...AND he can bully DP out of the lane).
LAC - Zubac and one of Morris or Covington
LAL - Davis and Howard
Memphis - Adams and JJJ
New Orleans - Valanciunas and Hayes
Philadelphia - Embiid and I can't tell
Boston - Horford and Williams
Toronto - Siakam and Achiuwa
Brooklyn - Drummond and I can't tell
Milwaukee - Brooks and Portis
Chicago - Vucevic and some very small ball option
Cleveland - Allen and Love
Miami - Adebayo and Dedmon
Charlotte - Plumlee and Harrell
Atlanta - Capela and Okongwu

There are very few starting C's on that list that don't have their way with Powell. There are also only a couple starting C's on that list that I take Powell over (Looney and Plumlee...if Drummond comes on a small salary that allows us to sit him when he isn't effective, I prefer him over Powell to start), and the ones I'd do it with, the teams are looking strongly to improve that position. If Powell played bigger than he is like Green or Adebayo does (extreme names I know), I wouldn't be having this conversation, but he doesn't. Some of the backup names have their way with Powell even, but I take Powell's contribution over theirs as a backup.

Well, speaking as someone who has been making an effort to catch as many of those teams' games as possible down the stretch (still not as many as I did during the great hehe season), I think you might be a surprise at just how much of an afterthought a few of those guys are, starting right now or not. 

You mention JJJ as a "change of pace" center, for example, but in many circles he's starting to be talked about as a possible defensive player of the year. He's absolutely, 100% viewed as the main defensive 5 on that team, regardless of how they start games during the regular season. 

We could get mired down in all of that, but I think I'm right and so do you, so it's probably best not to interact with each other any more on this subject and just leave it at "I have a much higher opinion of Powell and Kleber than you do."

[ItsGoTime]

Well, speaking as someone who has been making an effort to catch as many of those teams' games as possible down the stretch (still not as many as I did during the great hehe season), I think you might be a surprise at just how much of an afterthought a few of those guys are, starting right now or not. 

You mention JJJ as a "change of pace" center, for example, but in many circles he's starting to be talked about as a possible defensive player of the year. He's absolutely, 100% viewed as the main defensive 5 on that team, regardless of how they start games during the regular season. 

We could get mired down in all of that, but I think I'm right and so do you, so it's probably best not to interact with each other any more on this subject and just leave it at "I have a much higher opinion of Powell and Kleber than you do."

Are you saying Powell and/or Kleber can be starters with the rest of the team and we could win a championship? With the coaching we're seeing with Kidd, I think an upgrade of Bullock and Powell puts us in that conversation (IF DFS recent offensive stretch is here to stay for a few years).

The discussion we were having was about Powell getting pushed around and you named a couple names and said it wasn't that big a deal. I showed you the players that teams are putting out there to start, do you disagree that most of those names do mostly what they want with Powell?