A New Found Respect For Dwight Powell

[F Gump]

.... like exhaustion and injury (DP only plays 21mpg, which to me is the reason he has played every game this season, also, good on him for that!!!)

DP is not sitting because he fears injury or because he's too pooped to play more. He has averaged 21 mpg because that is what the coach has chosen to give him over the season so far. Plus, since the trade the center spot is basically a 2-man split, DP and Maxi -- when Kleber is healthy, they each get about half of what's available -- so the Mavs essentially have 2 24-minute center positions, and DP is completely filling one of them.

If they bring in a different center, obviously he will have to get minutes from somewhere, but unless we see both DP and Maxi outgoing, the new guy is very unlikely to be played much more than these guys are.

It's possible the Mavs best solution at center will be to have DP and Kleber healthy, and develop Chriss into a usable backup for either when needed. Unfortunately, while likable and fun to watch, Bobi needs to go (although I'm guessing that's not considered a viable possibility).

[ItsGoTime]

DP is not sitting because he fears injury or because he's too pooped to play more. He has averaged 21 mpg because that is what the coach has chosen to give him over the season so far. Plus, since the trade the center spot is basically a 2-man split, DP and Maxi -- when Kleber is healthy, they each get about half of what's available -- so the Mavs essentially have 2 24-minute center positions, and DP is completely filling one of them.

If they bring in a different center, obviously he will have to get minutes from somewhere, but unless we see both DP and Maxi outgoing, the new guy is very unlikely to be played much more than these guys are.

It's possible the Mavs best solution at center will be to have DP and Kleber healthy, and develop Chriss into a usable backup for either when needed. Unfortunately, while likable and fun to watch, Bobi needs to go (although I'm guessing that's not considered a viable possibility).

I’m not even speculating on why he’s getting 21mpg, of course it’s a coaches decision. If he was a better player, I guarantee he’d play more minutes though! Also, Kleber and Powell play together as well, so it’s not all that close to 2 24 mpg spots.

[F Gump]

The total minutes played by DP + Maxi is close to 48, game after game. It just is. Obviously game conditions (opponent, fouls, injuries at other positions, etc) alter the mix from game to game, and sometimes one plays more or sometimes the other, but your center is DP-Maxi.

The point is, it's a split position, so the fact that DP plays half of 48 is not all that noteworthy. They play the same position and rotate, each plays about half, and when the roster is healthy, it's rare for them to play together.

You can spin that as a negative (ie they don't have one good enough to shove the other to the bench) but it might instead have positive connotations (you have two centers you want to play regularly, and merit doing so, but only 48 minutes available). Which is it, a plus or a minus? The answer may lie more in one's bias rather than in anything objective.

The fact that they have differing skills, which you will almost certainly not get in a single player elsewhere, adds value and is part of the equation. That's rarely mentioned in the lust for another center, but is probably way more important to the merit and value (or lack of same) of the theoretical alternatives than is realized.

[ItsGoTime]

The total minutes played by DP + Maxi is close to 48, game after game. It just is. Obviously game conditions (opponent, fouls, injuries at other positions, etc) alter the mix from game to game, and sometimes one plays more or sometimes the other, but your center is DP-Maxi.

The point is, it's a split position, so the fact that DP plays half of 48 is not all that noteworthy. They play the same position and rotate, each plays about half, and when the roster is healthy, it's rare for them to play together.

You can spin that as a negative (ie they don't have one good enough to shove the other to the bench) but it might instead have positive connotations (you have two centers you want to play regularly, and merit doing so, but only 48 minutes available). Which is it, a plus or a minus? The answer may lie more in one's bias rather than in anything objective.

The fact that they have differing skills, which you will almost certainly not get in a single player elsewhere, adds value and is part of the equation. That's rarely mentioned in the lust for another center, but is probably way more important to the merit and value (or lack of same) of the theoretical alternatives than is realized.

If we were to get another C and not lose either Powell or Kleber, Kleber would go back to being more of a PF like he was pre-trade and the minutes come from some of the guys down the chain. That's a GREAT problem to have...deciding who isn't good enough to get minutes. Some of you guys act like everything is so set, when we've had, what? 12-15 games since the trade? Powell is a C only, Kleber is a PF/C, and has only recently become mostly a C since the trade, not even close to all year. I don't understand this hard stance of how it has to be. Sure, it has to be this way now, cause there are no other options.

[Mavs2021]

BTW, @"mvossman", the "truly sorry for your loss" part was genuine, not sarcastic (although maybe not appropriate at all if you really wanted him gone). 

I lived through a situation here during which Carlisle left and everyone was kicking him on his way out the door. It really bummed me out, and I thought about leaving. The comment was my honest attempt at empathy, since I fancy that I know a bit about what KP truthers have been going through recently.

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I thought so, yes. But, maybe that's because you were the most vocally against it amongst the rank of those whom I read most carefully. 

Love @"Mavs2021", but basically everything that happens makes him mad.

Thanks for the compliment. t´s like telling that to a Kings, Pistons or Magic fan. It takes a special kind of effort to assemble an asset-less 150M payroll.

Might not feel like it this year, but probably will when the Clippers, Warriors and Nuggets return to full strength next year and the Grizzlies and Wolves have another year of experience.

[ItsGoTime]

Most, if not all of Chriss 10 minutes played last night was with Kleber. When they played zone, Chriss was in the middle. This has been pretty routine in the 3rd and early 4th with Maxi and Powell. Please tell me again how Kleber is exclusively a C and how it’s 2 24 minute slots?

[mvossman]

Thanks for the compliment. t´s like telling that to a Kings, Pistons or Magic fan. It takes a special kind of effort to assemble an asset-less 150M payroll.

Might not feel like it this year, but probably will when the Clippers, Warriors and Nuggets return to full strength next year and the Grizzlies and Wolves have another year of experience.

This kind of comment does not really help your cause.  Comparing the Mavs to Kings, Pistons or Magic is silly.  Luka even on his super max is still one of the best assets in the league.  I would argue Luka/DFS/Brunson/Din are all assets right now and a good core of a team.  If green continues his progression next year he will join that group.  They also have several quality rotational players who will at least be salary filler (Maxi, Powell, Bullock, THJ when he gets healthy).

Will the Clippers, Warriors and Nuggets ever return to full strength?  They all have aging/injury prone cores who may never be fully healthy again.  We already dumped our injury prone issue.

The Griz and Wolves are dangerous young teams, but neither has a player of Luka's caliber to dominate in the playoffs.

The FO has made a lot of mistakes since the Luka/Brunson draft, but this roster is still fairly young and probably just one piece away from contention.  Does not really seem like a position to be full doom and gloom.

[loki]

The FO has made a lot of mistakes since the Luka/Brunson draft, but this roster is still fairly young and probably just one piece away from contention.  Does not really seem like a position to be full doom and gloom.

If that one piece they add is a star I might agree. Otherwise I think they're two pieces away. 

Imagine adding a player like Turner this offseason. It addresses one of the glaring problems and makes the team better, but you've still got Luka and either Brunson or Dinwiddie in the starting lineup, flanked by three 3&D players. I just don't think that gets it done consistently enough. When the shots aren't falling, Luka will still have to go supernova to keep them afloat.

[ItsGoTime]

If that one piece they add is a star I might agree. Otherwise I think they're two pieces away. 

Imagine adding a player like Turner this offseason. It addresses one of the glaring problems and makes the team better, but you've still got Luka and either Brunson or Dinwiddie in the starting lineup, flanked by three 3&D players. I just don't think that gets it done consistently enough. When the shots aren't falling, Luka will still have to go supernova to keep them afloat.

Absolutely, we need a ball handling wing as well.

[mvossman]

If that one piece they add is a star I might agree. Otherwise I think they're two pieces away. 

Imagine adding a player like Turner this offseason. It addresses one of the glaring problems and makes the team better, but you've still got Luka and either Brunson or Dinwiddie in the starting lineup, flanked by three 3&D players. I just don't think that gets it done consistently enough. When the shots aren't falling, Luka will still have to go supernova to keep them afloat.

Personally I think this has already been addressed with Din.  The last two years, offense has not been this teams problem, including in the playoffs.  It was clear that adding some playmaking/creation would help, but the real issue was always the defense.

I look at it as generally 2 playmakers/creators, 2 3&D guys and a rim runner (I'm thinking Capela, but Turner could play this role as well) most of the time.  The finishing lineup would probably be Turner/DFS/Luka/Din/Brunson.  That group has more than enough offensive firepower.

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Absolutely, we need a ball handling wing as well.

We already have two, Luka and Din.

[loki]

I look at it as generally 2 playmakers/creators, 2 3&D guys and a rim runner (I'm thinking Capela, but Turner could play this role as well) most of the time.  The finishing lineup would probably be Turner/DFS/Luka/Din/Brunson.  That group has more than enough offensive firepower.

I have trouble imagining that lineup holding up defensively over a large sample size. Turner or Capela and DFS can only do so much. It's asking a lot of them to make up for 3 subpar defenders.

[omahen]

We already have two, Luka and Din.

I agree with Itsgotime. We still lack talent. I don't think a better center would be enough. We need a big wing too, imho. Overview of ballhandling talent on current best teams:

Milwaukee has three (Giannis, JRue, Middleton). 
Warriors have three in Curry, Thompson and Wiggins. 
Phoenix has two (Paul and Booker) and two (Ayton, Bridges) elite complementary pieces. 
Boston has three (Tatum, Brown, Smart). 
Brooklyn has two elite ones and elite role players. 
Chicago has arguably four. 
Denver has three (Jokic, Murray, MPJ) or four if you also count Gordon. 
Clippers have four (Kawhi, George, Morris, Powell). 
Miami has two (Butler and Lowry), another elite complementary piece (Bam) and elite 6th man. 
Philly has three in Harden, Embiid and Harris.

[Jakeospikez]

Personally I think this has already been addressed with Din.  The last two years, offense has not been this teams problem, including in the playoffs.  It was clear that adding some playmaking/creation would help, but the real issue was always the defense.

I look at it as generally 2 playmakers/creators, 2 3&D guys and a rim runner (I'm thinking Capela, but Turner could play this role as well) most of the time.  The finishing lineup would probably be Turner/DFS/Luka/Din/Brunson.  That group has more than enough offensive firepower.

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We already have two, Luka and Din.

I think if you don't believe in Josh Green's development to eventually be in your finishing lineup, you need to just trade him for someone who will be in there.

[mvossman]

I have trouble imagining that lineup holding up defensively over a large sample size. Turner or Capela and DFS can only do so much. It's asking a lot of them to make up for 3 subpar defenders.

I mean the team is top 10 right now with less than that.  Din is really not that big of a drop off from Bullock and Turner is a huge upgrade over Powell.  Luka has already shown he can play average defense when he cares (and the playoffs will obviously fall into that category) and Din is a roughly average defender.  The only truly subpar defender in that group is Brunson, and even he has shown some improvements this year.

I have no problem finishing games with that group, but for most of the game one of those playmaker/creators will be replaced by Bullock or (even better from a defensive standpoint) Green and the defense will be even better.  If we still have Maxi playing backup 4/5, that team is probably a top 5 defense.

[mvossman]

I think if you don't believe in Josh Green's development to eventually be in your finishing lineup, you need to just trade him for someone who will be in there.

This was a near term conversation about what it would take to make them contenders.  Don't see Josh Green in the finishing lineup next year, but I do feel like he is on an accelerated DFS like path.  Assuming he continues improving he should be a key rotational player next year, and potentially a starter in the following year or two.  Not sure why we would be in a hurry to trade that away?  Especially when he falls into the category of player that generally gets undervalued in the market (not a scorer).

[F Gump]

There's no argument that the Mavs can be improved in some way or another (even more than one). They're certainly not perfect, and if you have the opportunity to upgrade (for a reasonable cost), well yeah.

But the doom and gloom over today's team is getting absurd.

Your production, not your pedigree or acclaim, is the only objective criteria. By that standard, the Mavs roster is already on a par with or ahead of EVERY team except Phoenix and Memphis. Results, not "roster as we perceive it on paper," is what matters.

When the season ends, Dallas may have the 3rd best record, of everyone, and they are clearly playing on the same tier of success as all of Mia, Mil, Bos, Phil, GS, Utah, Denver. Those teams being lauded for their supposedly impeccable rosters are all flawed in one or more ways, just like the Mavs are, and "not good enough." The supposedly-superb Nets and Clippers won't even make the playoffs for sure, each still hoping to play their way in to one of the bottom seeds. You are who you are.

[Mavs2021]

The reality of the situation is that if you break down the play-off contending teams....

best player vs. best player
2nd best player vs. 2nd best player
3rd best player vs. 3rd best player
....

we simply do not win many of the overall breakdowns.

Luka vs. Durant vs. Giannis vs. Booker
Brunson vs. Irving vs. Middleton vs. CP3
DFS vs. Simmons vs. Holiday vs. Ayton
Dinwiddie vs. Curry vs. Lopez vs. Bridges
Bullock vs. Harris vs. Portis vs. Johnson
....
 
Luka would have to be LeJordan to carry this team to a title.

[Mavs2021]

There's no argument that the Mavs are can be improved in some way or another (even more than one). They're certainly not perfect, and if you have the opportunity to upgrade (for a reasonable cost), well yeah.

But the doom and gloom over this team is getting absurd.

Your production, not your pedigree or acclaim, is the only objective criteria. By that standard, the Mavs roster is already on a par with EVERY team except Phoenix and Memphis. Results, not "roster as we perceive it on paper," is what matters.

When the season ends, Dallas may have the 3rd best record, of everyone, and they are clearly plating on the same tier as all of Mia, Mil, Bos, Phil, GS, Utah, Denver. Those teams being lauded for their supposedly impeccable rosters are all flawed in one or more ways, just like the Mavs are, and "not good enough." The supposedly-superb Nets and Clippers won't even make the playoffs for sure, each still hoping to play their way in to one of the bottom seeds. You are who you are.

Yeah and we are the franchise with the same amount of play-off series wins in the last decade as the Kings, Pistons, Magic and Hornets, not the Miami Heat or Golden State Warriors.

The goal is to win the title and the Nets/Clippers are a lot closer to winning a title than us, regardless of what these records say.

[mvossman]

I agree with Itsgotime. We still lack talent. I don't think a better center would be enough. We need a big wing too, imho. Overview of ballhandling talent on current best teams:

Milwaukee has three (Giannis, JRue, Middleton). 
Warriors have three in Curry, Thompson and Wiggins. 
Phoenix has two (Paul and Booker) and two (Ayton, Bridges) elite complementary pieces. 
Boston has three (Tatum, Brown, Smart). 
Brooklyn has two elite ones and elite role players. 
Chicago has arguably four. 
Denver has three (Jokic, Murray, MPJ) or four if you also count Gordon. 
Clippers have four (Kawhi, George, Morris, Powell). 
Miami has two (Butler and Lowry), another elite complementary piece (Bam) and elite 6th man. 
Philly has three in Harden, Embiid and Harris.

Honestly I would suggest the Mavs fit right into this list with Luka, Din, Brunson

[omahen]

Honestly I would suggest the Mavs fit right into this list with Luka, Din, Brunson

Nope, I don't agree with it. I intentionally didn't include ball handlers other teams have on the bench. 

Warriors have Poole for example. Phoenix has Payne, Boston has White, Brooklyn has Dragic and Patty, Chicago has White, Denver has Morris, Clippers have Jackson, Kennard, Mann, Miami has Herro. 

Mavs have three players that can take the ball and do something in iso. Other teams have more.