ARTICLE: "Luka Doncic and Rick Carlisle: The dissolution of their relationship"

[Fuerza1]

I suppose it is only fitting I read most of this article while on the toilet. This is straight DOO-DOO. 

Nothing was gained here (unless Luka went to Raising Canes for breakfast again?). Looks like to me Timmy Mac, who is reliable IMHO, is grasping at straws to write a deadline piece for tonight's game vs LAL. 

DSJ is a wannabe martyr. He could not hack it, and is deflecting his failures. He is on his 4th and likely final team in the NBA. 

Carlisle has always been known as a hardass. I wanted him gone as much as anybody else; an overrated below .500 coach in the 10 seasons after the championship. But he gave DSJ plenty of chances; early in the reason he allowed him to be the primary ball handler while Luka was here. They NEVER meshed well. 

As for the Mitchell vs DSJ thing, I call BS. Carlisle was over the moon when DSJ was drafted. If folks remember, that was a "PG heaven" type of draft. The Mavs were desperate for one of them and identified the top 4 in Fultz, Ball, Fox, and DSJ.

In conclusion, DSJ is a bust. Carlisle is an a-hole, smart coach who overstayed his welcome once unable to click with KP/Luka. Time to move on.

[LukTheShadow]

Don't want to comment the article. But have 2 Q:

1. why now, it's 12.15 .....
2. can this hurt mavs on the market?

Future is our ... future, not past.

[MangaAfterDark]

They probably hoped he would be a successful starter. 

But a franchise cornerstone? A la Dirk and Luka? Really?

Maybe that's the way DSJ saw it. I don't know about the Mavs, lol. 

Doesn't matter now, I guess.

The Mavs 100% presented DSJ as a cornerstone until it was obvious that he wasnt. Nobody knew Dirk was going to be That Dude until he proved it, I still remember the days were people openly made fun of Dallas because our best player "wasnt elite". Luka was the 3rd overall pick so he obviously had higher expectations, but the team thought DSJ was going to be a really good starter for a competing team, or we really are the worst drafting team in pro sports.

[KillerLeft]

I think that the reason the Jamahl thing even came to public attention was Rick's implicitly throwing Jamahl under the bus on the way out, volunteering a hope that Kidd would succeed him when Mosley was still considered a candidate

Quid pro quo.

Carlisle wanted out of the last year of his deal, no strings attached, and Cuban, having decided pretty much immediately that Kidd was the guy, judged (incorrectly) that a parting word from Carlisle in favor of Kidd would help it go over with fans and maybe even some players.

I highly doubt that Jamal Moseley was ever under any serious consideration.

[mavsluvr]

The Mavs 100% presented DSJ as a cornerstone until it was obvious that he wasnt. Nobody knew Dirk was going to be That Dude until he proved it, I still remember the days were people openly made fun of Dallas because our best player "wasnt elite". Luka was the 3rd overall pick so he obviously had higher expectations, but the team thought DSJ was going to be a really good starter for a competing team, or we really are the worst drafting team in pro sports.

I totally buy that this was their hope. But that's a long way from saying they were counting on him to be the franchise's next Dirk, which I don't remember anyone ever saying. 

Anyway, what was the point of this argument? To defend the idea that a story about a "former future franchise cornerstone" falling out of the rotation is worth telling? 

The story was presented as one about the dissolution of the relationship between Luka and Rick, not a story about why DSJ was a bust in Dallas. I actually don't question that that is a story worth telling, and if DSJ's falling out of the rotation was really an important factor in that, then by all means, let's hear it. I don't know whether that was really the case in anyone's mind but DSJ's, but you never know. I doubt if anyone besides DSJ is going to come out and confirm or deny it, so it may remain a matter shrouded in mystery.

[cow]

They probably hoped he would be a successful starter. 

But a franchise cornerstone? A la Dirk and Luka? Really?

Maybe that's the way DSJ saw it. I don't know about the Mavs, lol. 

Doesn't matter now, I guess.

Hindsight is fun.

[MangaAfterDark]

I totally buy that this was their hope. But that's a long way from saying they were counting on him to be the franchise's next Dirk, which I don't remember anyone ever saying. 

Anyway, what was the point of this argument? To defend the idea that a story about a "former future franchise cornerstone" falling out of the rotation is worth telling? 

The story was presented as one about the dissolution of the relationship between Luka and Rick, not a story about why DSJ was a bust in Dallas. I actually don't question that that is a story worth telling, and if DSJ's falling out of the rotation was really an important factor in that, then by all means, let's hear it. I don't know whether that was really the case in anyone's mind but DSJ's, but you never know. I doubt if anyone besides DSJ is going to come out and confirm or deny it.

I never said he would be as good as Dirk, by the time DSJ was drafted even the most saltiest of Dirk haters knew he was a top 20 all-timer. A long-term high level starter is a franchise conerstone like how KP is supposed to be, doesnt mean they will get into the HOF but DSJ was drafted to be a high level performer for the franchise for years to come just like how KP is/was. The evaluation was just wrong

[fifteenth]

Quid pro quo.

Carlisle wanted out of the last year of his deal, no strings attached, and Cuban, having decided pretty much immediately that Kidd was the guy, judged (incorrectly) that a parting word from Carlisle in favor of Kidd would help it go over with fans and maybe even some players.

I highly doubt that Jamal Moseley was ever under any serious consideration.

This is astute ^^^^

[mavsluvr]

Quid pro quo.

Carlisle wanted out of the last year of his deal, no strings attached, and Cuban, already having decided that kid was the guy, judged (incorrectly) that a parting word from Carlisle in favor of Kidd would help it go over with fans and maybe even some players.

I highly doubt that Jamal Moseley was ever under any serious consideration.

Yes, that take has been around for a while, and I guess it makes as much sense as anything else. 

I still think that remark was the own goal that ignited all the negative stories about the Rick-Mosley dynamic, and I think Rick's willingness to publicly appear to put his thumb on the scale on the way out was beneath him. 

But, Rick has to feed his family like all of us, and if Cuban making him do this was really the price of cleanly getting out of his contract, maybe he figured that appearing to stoop to a lower ethical level was warranted in his personal situation. If Cuban really imposed this condition (and I'm not saying he didn't), it just emphasizes my visceral dislike of the sleazy way he does business.

[fifteenth]

A long-term high level starter is a franchise conerstone

I don't think so. More like long term best or one of best players.

[fifteenth]

Mavs cornerstones (since 1998)

Fin
Dirk
Nash

Dirk only

Dirk and Jet

Luka

[cow]

Mavs cornerstones (since 1998)

Fin
Dirk
Nash

Dirk only

Dirk and Jet

Luka

[fifteenth]

Man, cow cow, that's tough. I considered myself leader of the DFS fan club a couple of years ago, and then realized with you and Killer we may have 3 co-leaders. But I'm not sure if he's a Cornerstone. If you can Killer both say he is, then I'm in.

[MangaAfterDark]

I don't think so. More like long term best or one of best players.

Is a high-level starter not one of your best players? DSJ was drafted in the hope he becomes a borderline allstar, which would have made him a conerstone but the team (myself and other DSJ fans) was wrong. He was not drafter to give us 15 minutes off the bench. We can agree to disagree on the definition of "cornerstone", but I am curious, how do yall view THJ, what we paid him, and what his role on the team is? THJ got paid to be a high-level contributor on a winning team for years to come. Was JET not a cornerstone either?

[fifteenth]

Is a high-level starter not one of your best players? DSJ was drafted in the hope he becomes a borderline allstar, which would have made him a conerstone but the team (myself and other DSJ fans) was wrong. He was not drafter to give us 15 minutes off the bench. We can agree to disagree on the definition of "cornerstone", but I am curious, how do yall view THJ, what we paid him, and what his role on the team is? THJ got paid to be a high-level contributor on a winning team for years to come. Was JET not a cornerstone either?

Did you see my list up above? That's how I'd define it. But you're right, we don't all have the same definitions.

[MangaAfterDark]

Did you see my list up above? That's how I'd define it. But you're right, we don't all have the same definitions.

I agree with your list definitely, but my point is that the Mavs intended on DSJ and then KP to be cornerstones, the team was just wrong on DSJ and KP has so far been a mixed bag (I want KP to prove everyone wrong)

[fifteenth]

I agree with your list definitely, but my point is that the Mavs intended on DSJ and then KP to be cornerstones, the team was just wrong on DSJ and KP has so far been a mixed bag (I want KP to prove everyone wrong)

That's fine. I mean, the draft is a gamble. You try to get the best player you can, but only a small  percentage of lotterty picks become great players.

[MangaAfterDark]

That's fine. I mean, the draft is a gamble. You try to get the best player you can, but only a small  percentage of lotterty picks become great players.

Its even harder when the Org is in disarray about who they are drafting. Thats been the most disappointing revelation in this whole soap opera. If the coach is openly campaigning for/against certain players the team should definitely listen to the coach's concerns unless they are unfounded. RC still should have not behaved in the way that he did and its a good thing he is gone, but this should not have blown up in our faces like this

[cow]

Man, cow cow, that's tough. I considered myself leader of the DFS fan club a couple of years ago, and then realized with you and Killer we may have 3 co-leaders. But I'm not sure if he's a Cornerstone. If you can Killer both say he is, then I'm in.

I'm weird though.  I'd have Tyson on my list too.  And I wouldn't include Jet.

[fifteenth]

I'm weird though.  I'd have Tyson on my list too.  And I wouldn't include Jet.

Gotcha. I actually have a different category in the Mavs HOF (that's in my head) that's reserved for the Finishing Five.