Ranking the Mavs' non-Luka/KP players

[Scott41theMavs]

I enjoyed doing the tank-watch threads the last couple of years. As long as Luka is healthy this year, I won't have to do that, which makes me happy. 

With all of the hang-wringing this offseason - and I was as pissed as anyone - the Mavs have built a nice little team, definitely one of the deepest in the league. I wanted to start a thread in which I (and anyone else who wanted to chime in with critiques, etc.) would rank the status and quality of the Mavs' players aside from Luka and KP, since most of us seem to be of the consensus that we have those two and no other real starters. Who is most important to the Mavs' success and contributing the most aside from our big two? I plan to renew these rankings every Tuesday. No Broekhoff, JJB, Roby, Reaves, or Cleveland until they play (more, in Ryan's case).

1) Wright - Some folks have wrongly pegged Wright as some sort of Mavs' afterthought in the offseason, when the inside take is that he was one of their prime targets from the opening of free agency. While it remains to be seen whether he fits better off the bench or in the starting lineup, I think he has clearly been the most consistent Mav aside from the big two. Crafty, a winner, great shot selection. While the sample size is tiny, his outside shooting, considered to be his Achilles' heel, has been no problem. A great get at his contract.

2) Brunson - Don't get me wrong; I get the concerns about shot selection. But Brunson has continued to show up as an excellent ball-handler and contributor to the team.

3) Boban - Hope this guy gets more minutes. He sure makes the offseason look better so far. 

4) Maxi - While not contributing much offensively so far, he has been quite the defensive front with KP and was a good workhorse with Powell out. He seems to get thrown into every trade proposal. Given the Wurzberg connection and his defensive value on a team that hasn't been great defensively, I hope that's not the case. Whether as trade bait or as a long-term Mav, I think it's pretty dumb for anyone to fuss about that contract. 

5) DFS - It must just be me, because I haven't seen too many others comment on it, but I think DFS has looked surprisingly fantastic. Active defensively and on the boards, hitting those opportunistic open threes, and strong chemistry with Luka. If he continues to play at this level, I would say he's graduated to the status of the 8th-best player on a contending team (I usually evaluate players in those terms - where do you want them to be, based on their abilities, in the minutes rotation on a championship-contending team?). Pretty damn good look for Donnie to have picked him off the scrapheap and then re-signed him to that reasonable contract. 

6) Curry - While his shot has certainly been there, I had expected to see better from Curry by this point. 

7) THJ - RC seems to be force-feeding THJ minutes. Whether it's out of a sense that he has to contribute something for the team to be successful, or if there's some mandate to try to make his trade value a bit less negative, he has been unsurprisingly ineffective some of the time and surprisingly effective at many others. Hoping he either rises on this list as the season goes on, or that his minutes can get cut in favor of Justin's. 

8) Powell - He certainly has added a dimension to the lob game since coming back, but oy, that defense. If he doesn't shake off the rust soon, I'll be ready to consider him as big of an offseason error as failing to get the number three guy with our cap room.

9) Justin - Justin has been a dynamic disappointment so far. He must be practicing really poorly, as he seems to be buried well below DFS and THJ. Perhaps RC doesn't like what he sees on the defensive end, or the rather annoying emptiness of his box score aside from scoring. 

10) Lee - garbage. Worth nothing more than salary filler in trade.

[vfromlmf]

3. Wright - Exceptionally efficient so far, Wright is a starting caliber guard who plays great defense. Whether starting or off the bench, he should get 28+ minutes per night.

4. DFS - Exceptional rebounder; long; developing into a premier 3&D wing. 

5a. Powell & 5b. Kleber - How can you separate Powell & Kleber? They're very different players but platoon for 40+ good center minutes every night. 

7. Brunson - Love what Brunson brings this team but there are a dozen backup guards who could replace his minutes with equal effect. A hard working, tough winner. A solid but not yet elite backup. He's better at basketball than DSJ though.

8. Curry - Elite bench shooter who can get pushed around by physical teams. A tactical weapon. A rotation player but not a regular starter.

9. Boban - The ultimate tactical weapon? 

10. THJ - I'm hard on THJ because of his shot selection. Good size on the wing. Streaky. Poor defender. He really should be much better than this. He's certainly a rotation player and there's an argument to be made that he should start. I'd just like to see him play better.

11. Jackson - Why can't Jackson and his smoove George Gervin floater get on the court more often? Added 20 pounds over the summer and Carlisle is playing him almost exclusively as a small-ball PF. I think maybe he doesn't have the lateral quickness to defend wings. I think he'll have his most efficient year in short minutes. Another tactical weapon.

12. Lee - Non-factor

[BigDirk41]

I honestly can't rank our #3-#11. They are all very similar in skill level, but with different skill sets. Yes we are deep and yes we have a strong team, but I can't think of a lot of good teams where the 3rd, 4th, 5th best players aren't pretty obvious. Our players all step up at different times. I think Wright is probably the 3rd most talented, but that's really all I can say.

[vfromlmf]

3a. & 3b - Powell & Kleber: For the team to be effective, it is essential for these two to play well. They must combine for 18/12 in 40+ min.

5. DFS - A dirty work workhorse every playoff team needs.

6. THJ - Developing into the 24 mpg bench weapon we hoped for. Very efficient spot up shooter but will get into trouble when he tries to do too much. When he plays with the ball Carlisle yells for him to move it, which is good.

7. Wright - Efficient but still working his way into a permanent role on the team. Does a little bit of everything. Remains to be seen if he can he be stretched for more than 24 minutes due to inability to space the floor. Still finding his way on the floor with Doncic.

8. Curry - Valuable floor spacer for Doncic, Porzingis and Powell.

9. Brunson - Still finding his game as an off-guard.

10. Jackson - Instant offense off the bench.

11. Boban - The ultimate weapon.

12. Lee - Nonfactor.

[MrGoat]

1. Kleber. The third Dirk. I was worried if the level of defense he played last year would carry over with the new bigger contract. So far it has and the early returns on his shooting this season are promising. The closest thing to a legit borderline starter in this group. 

2. Wright. Early returns are promising, does several things relatively well and has been pretty efficient so far. Would like him to be a little more aggressive on offense but that might cost him efficiency

3. Curry. We need to do a better job of getting him the ball. He's showed he can be a scorer here before so I think it will come around

4. Boban. He's dynamite when he's in, just can't play too many minutes because of his frame and stamina

5. Powell. Unlike Maxi he did regress a bit with the new contract, I'll still cut him some slack because of the injury that cost him preseason, for now...

6. Hardaway. Shooting the lowest percentage from the field on the team but he is our third leading scorer and there is value to him being the most willing of these guys to take shots. Taking over 6 3s a game and draining over 35% of them

7. Jackson. Not getting many minutes but I'm seeing some flashes from him that make me think that's going to change soon. Could move up this list if/when that happens

8. Finney Smith. I think seniority and familiarity with Luka are why he's getting so many minutes. In a vacuum though pretty unremarkable, and his shot doesn't look to have improved

9. Brunson. If DSJ was still on the team he would be getting crucified for putting up the efficiency numbers Jalen is putting up right now

10. Lee. The guy is totally washed

Not going to rank Barea or Bro because of the tiny amount of minutes but they're probably both at least above Lee if they got minutes

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

3. Kleber 
4. Wright 

after that, i don't even want to

[radioaktiv]

I think this is more like a "power rankings" as I expect this to be mostly fluid over the course of the season.

1. Wright
2. Kleber
3. Boban
4. Finney-Smith
5. Curry
6. Brunson
7. Powell
8. Hardaway Jr.
9. Jackson
10. Lee

[Scott41theMavs]

I think this is more like a "power rankings" as I expect this to be mostly fluid over the course of the season.

That's how I'm looking at it.

---

I said I was doing this every Tuesday. Well, the Mavs don't play until Thursday, so I feel okay doing this this evening. So, for 12 November...

1. Wright. His shooting has not been good, but he's still one of the Mavs' two best defenders and is good for those drives to the basket. 

2. Kleber. Maxi's play has been pleasantly consistent over the past four games. He seems to have found his shot (15-29) over the past four games, especially from three (11-21). Once again, great retention at his contract.

3. Barea. Yeah, this doesn't speak well for the past week that JJB sneaks in this high by virtue of his one (game-changing) appearance. It's a small miracle that he's back from the injury already. We need more guys who play like him.

4. Brunson. Two poor games to start the week, then two very solid ones. He has to learn not to shoot the 3 until he can get it to fall consistently. He held off in those past two games. 

5. Boban. That he didn't sink any farther on this list does not speak well of the team's play over the past week. Can only play when RC likes the matchup, evidently. Did great in the Memphis game, anyway...

6. Seth. Wasted his opportunities as a starter. Most effective off the bench. Of course, that applies to every player on this list aside perhaps from Wright and Kleber. 

7. Justin. Loved the Memphis game, but it doesn't matter how effective he is on offense if RC refuses to play him due to the rest of his game. 

8. DFS. Plays hard. Rebounds well as a three. Hits some timely threes. Effective defensively some of the time. He may be a scrub, but he's our scrub. 

9. Powell. He has done some solid stuff and played hard in the past couple of games (+20 in the Celtics game). Don't care. He's a wimp (by body structure rather than musculature - of course he's ripped), can't guard anyone, and can't hit a three. Really regret this contract. 

10. THJ. I don't give a crap about the Memphis game. This guy is going to ruin my enjoyment of Luka's breakout year if RC keeps playing him. 
11. Lee. Just dump this guy and his contract already.

[aguiar95]

Based on the 10 games and salary:

1. KLEBER
2. WRIGHT
3. BRUNSON
4. FINNEY-SMITH
5. CURRY
6. JACKSON
7. MARJANOVIC
8. BAREA
9. POWELL - TRADE BLOCK
10. HARDAWAY - TRADE BLOCK
11. LEE - TRADE BLOCK

[SportPsychMav]

It's pretty clear that Kleber is the 2nd best player on the team when you put role/money as controlling variables 
3rd is Wright. KP comes in 4th for me.

Hardaway with a brain would be the 2nd best player on the team. 

Regarding contract/role he currently is the worst.

Lee just doesn't exist for me, but is a good bench guy, seems to be cheerleading like a boss.

[Scott41theMavs]

Based on the 10 games and salary:

1. KLEBER
2. WRIGHT
3. BRUNSON
4. FINNEY-SMITH
5. CURRY
6. JACKSON
7. MARJANOVIC
8. BAREA
9. POWELL - TRADE BLOCK
10. HARDAWAY - TRADE BLOCK
11. LEE - TRADE BLOCK

Powell, Hardaway, and Lee can hardly serve as trade sweeteners for each other, and the Mavs can't trade a first rounder (until the 2020 draft night) for the next four years. Which other three of those 8 are also on the trade block if you're going to ship those three out? Point being, we can likely trade Lee fairly easily at the deadline because of his expiring contract, whereas we can likely afford to ship out one of Powell or Hardaway, but not both.

I suspect we get to regret that ridiculous Powell contract for the next four years, at least. It becomes less of a problem if Carlisle (or his successor...) learns that Powell has zero business playing more than 15 minutes/night in this professional basketball league.

[aguiar95]

Based on the 10 games and salary:

1. KLEBER
2. WRIGHT
3. BRUNSON
4. FINNEY-SMITH
5. CURRY
6. JACKSON
7. MARJANOVIC
8. BAREA
9. POWELL - TRADE BLOCK
10. HARDAWAY - TRADE BLOCK
11. LEE - TRADE BLOCK

Powell, Hardaway, and Lee can hardly serve as trade sweeteners for each other, and the Mavs can't trade a first rounder (until the 2020 draft night) for the next four years. Which other three of those 8 are also on the trade block if you're going to ship those three out? Point being, we can likely trade Lee fairly easily at the deadline because of his expiring contract, whereas we can likely afford to ship out one of Powell or Hardaway, but not both.

I suspect we get to regret that ridiculous Powell contract for the next four years, at least. It becomes less of a problem if Carlisle (or his successor...) learns that Powell has zero business playing more than 15 minutes/night in this professional basketball league.

Agreed. Maybe we can trade THJ/Lee/All 2nd Rounders for a big and send Powell to the bench unit where he can be effective. I wonder if that is enough to get a Favors/Valanciunas/Adams/Whiteside/Thompson/Ibaka to start for us.

I don't want to trade any of the other pieces, but depending on the guy we are getting, If I had to trade one of the younger guys, Jackson would be my first option. Brunson is on a great contract and can create his own shot. DFS provides defense on a very poor defensive team and Curry will find his role once RC realises he's not a starter.

[SportPsychMav]

Based on the 10 games and salary:

1. KLEBER
2. WRIGHT
3. BRUNSON
4. FINNEY-SMITH
5. CURRY
6. JACKSON
7. MARJANOVIC
8. BAREA
9. POWELL - TRADE BLOCK
10. HARDAWAY - TRADE BLOCK
11. LEE - TRADE BLOCK

Powell, Hardaway, and Lee can hardly serve as trade sweeteners for each other, and the Mavs can't trade a first rounder (until the 2020 draft night) for the next four years. Which other three of those 8 are also on the trade block if you're going to ship those three out? Point being, we can likely trade Lee fairly easily at the deadline because of his expiring contract, whereas we can likely afford to ship out one of Powell or Hardaway, but not both.

I suspect we get to regret that ridiculous Powell contract for the next four years, at least. It becomes less of a problem if Carlisle (or his successor...) learns that Powell has zero business playing more than 15 minutes/night in this professional basketball league.

Agreed. Maybe we can trade THJ/Lee/All 2nd Rounders for a big and send Powell to the bench unit where he can be effective. I wonder if that is enough to get a Favors/Valanciunas/Adams/Whiteside/Thompson/Ibaka to start for us.

I don't want to trade any of the other pieces, but depending on the guy we are getting, If I had to trade one of the younger guys, Jackson would be my first option. Brunson is on a great contract and can create his own shot. DFS provides defense on a very poor defensive team and Curry will find his role once RC realises he's not a starter.

We need a physical player, a rough guy. Dallas is just getting roughed up on most nights.

Only win against a physical team has been against Orlando.

Of your names listed, only Adams can fill that role.

[Fuerza1]

I know KP is second "best" player by default but there's a considerable gap between him and Luka, who looks the part of a top 10 player while KP looks more like a wannabe Nikola Vucevic. 

You could make the case Kleber has been more consistent on both ends of the floor, at least recently. 

Anyways, sticking to the heart of the thread, I'd rank it:

1.) Kleber   2). Delon

3.) Brunson 4.) Boban

5.) Jackson 6.) Powell

7.) DFS      8.) THJ 

9.) Seth    10.) Lee

[Kammrath]

9.) Seth

[Scott41theMavs]

9.) Seth

Yeah, Fuerza has some sort of agenda against Seth. Seth was way more than just a spot-up three-shooter for the Mavs three years ago. Seth is playing poorly overall this year, but I suspect that Fuerza's main agenda has to do with his avatar.

[SportPsychMav]

We have a logjam of too many similar players with undefined roles. We cannot expect them to do consistently well. Plus the game plan of shooting pull up 3s just sucks.

3s should only be taken as last effort shots or wide open.

[Scott41theMavs]

Not counting the small sample size for JJB, Bobi, and RFA (Broekhoff), the following Mavs achieved PER averageness in the first ten games:
Luka 29.87
Wright 17.86
KP 15.43 (not good, in his case...)
Justin 15.31
Maxi 15.06

That's better than we've had the past few years...

Brunson and Dwight "ridiculously deceptive numbers that do in fact lie" Powell are knocking at the door. Disappointingly, Seth Curry is not, and neither are THJ and DFS. DFS looks good pretty often, but is getting abused on defense more than he did in the past and still can't make that 3 consistently.

[SportPsychMav]

Maxi is by far the 2nd best player on this team. He plays fully within himself.

[Fuerza1]

Yeah, Fuerza has some sort of agenda against Seth. Seth was way more than just a spot-up three-shooter for the Mavs three years ago. Seth is playing poorly overall this year, but I suspect that Fuerza's main agenda has to do with his avatar.

Zero agenda. Lets look at the facts: 

Seth has the second worst on/off court on the team at -13.6; since becoming the starter, he's at a -27.1! His defensive rating has been the worst on the team in that span. 

Maybe you don't like those "advanced analytics" anymore. That's okay. Lets look at the basics: 

Since becoming the starter, Seth is averaging 37% from the field, 33% from 3PT, 1 apg, 1 rpg. This is like looking at a Barnes box score a year ago. At least Seth did well against powerhouses in CLE and MEM though.