BRUNSON BURNER: to NYK for 4yrs/$104M (no SnT) | NYK docked 2025 2nd for tampering

[fifteenth]

Yes, if that's the case then he's probably gone and they should trade him. Can't worry about it on our end because we don't know, but the Mavs probably do. At least I hope they do. 

This seems unnecessary to me. I just don't think playing him the first 6 minutes of the first quarter is a big deal. He's good enough to do that. He's becoming that "second playmaker" that we've talked so much about. We were willing to pay big money for someone from another team to come and do it. And now we have Brunson growing into that role before our eyes.

[omahen]

We need more playmaking not less. We need more long wings that can play, not less. 

Nico and team finance staff (didn't Nico bring in, like, the best of the best?), figure it out.

I am not sure if I see Brunson as a starter or a heavy minute bench player.  I said before the season, the Mavs need to find 25 plus minutes a game for him.  I didn't think Carlisle had this in his vision imo.   If they couldn't find these minutes, he wasn't going to want to stay here regardless how much he liked the team and city.   So far,the Mavs have found those minutes for him, plus having him in the closing unit in the majority of games.  With him being a UFA, I would certainly try him as a starter and see how it works.   The guy he would be replacing would not be a world beater.  Maybe it works great.  Maybe it doesn't and he can go back to a heavy minute bench player after you re-sign him.

I think the problem is way more complex than this, unless Cuban will be prepared to pay huge amount of tax. 

If you are keeping Brunson and DFS and want to maintain reasonably low tax (or even stay below tax line), you are effectively dumping some 20+ million of contracts from this team and replacing them with vet min guys. So basically despite how bad Powell and Bullock look on this team at this point, the team would be even less talented as it is (and dumping them might cost some assets). I guess no one is enthusiastic to just dump Maxi and I guess THJ wasn't signed to a four year deal just to be dumped a few months later (no GM will admit such a mistake, imho). If you keep Brunson and don't touch the KP/THJ/Luka, this core four players will likely take over 100 mil of cap space next season. A core that is currently in the play-in spot in a sort of weak, injury riddled West.

Sure this is a great and interesting topic to discuss, but it is far from simple imho. And as I said in the other thread, it has a lot of bad outcomes for Mavs. I think Mavs need a good TDL trade. A trade that would perhaps convince Cuban it is worth paying tax. In the end, if you want to contend this is inevitable as we can see with both LA teams, Nets, Milwaukee and GSW as some examples.

[KillerLeft]

This seems unnecessary to me. I just don't think playing him the first 6 minutes of the first quarter is a big deal.

It just depends on the overall mix of the roster. 

They haven't started him yet (when everyone is healthy) so maybe that should tell us something. Then again, maybe not. 

I think "if he wants to start" is a sort of code for "if he wants to be the starting PG." Are you really sure that starting him is ok if it takes the ball away from Luka? I mean, it might be, but even if it works, are we sure Luka would be ok with it? 

There ARE scenarios that could play out wherein we'll wish the Mavs had capitalized on Brunson's value when they had the chance. Nobody that I've read on this board (except maybe @"cow") wants Brunson to be gone or doesn't think he'll be worth his next deal (that might be an oversimplification of Cow's thinking, sorry). If they can make it work, great! I just feel in my bones that we're on a dead-end path to feeling gipped this summer. I'm scared to death.

[KillerLeft]

A trade that would perhaps convince Cuban it is worth paying tax.

That would be great! I don't think it's realistic, but I'm right there hoping with you. 

What I am (naively) hoping for, personally, is a series of moves that enables the Mavs (somehow) to keep the right guys and rid themselves of the wrong guys without paying the tax just yet. 

I agree that it's a borderline desperate situation that could break very, very badly.

[fifteenth]

They haven't started him yet (when everyone is healthy) so maybe that should tell us something. Then again, maybe not.

I think this is because of the "two big" thing. I'm on the "fix the KP situation" train, of which you may be Conductor, and of which, in my mind, would help the Brunson thing. Also, as far as starting him this season, Brunson's development hasn't been stagnant. We went into the season wondering if Brunsons could be the secondary playmaker, and it appears to me that he's becoming (or has become) that. The last step in the process would be he and Luka learning to play off of each other, which leads to...

are you really sure that starting him is ok if it takes the ball away from Luka?

I am ok with this. Luka can reduce the amount he has the ball and still have the ball alot. I think there is evidence that Kidd is trying to create possessions where Luka is off the ball. I think that potential diversification is a good thing, could help Luka, and could make fourth quarters and playoff games more doable for the Mavs. 

There ARE scenarios that could play out wherein we'll wish the Mavs had capitalized on Brunson's value when they had the chance. Nobody that I've read on this board (except maybe @cow) wants Brunson to be gone or doesn't think he'll be worth his next deal (that might be an oversimplification of Cow's thinking, sorry). If they can make it work, great! I just feel in my bones that we're on a dead-end path to feeling gipped this summer. I'm scared to death.

I agree. There are tons of possible disaster scenarios.

I want them to figure out how to keep Brunson and DFS. The Mavs may fail at that, or they may include them in trades that are good for the Mavs somehow. The future is unknown. But when I comb through the roster and look for who to keep around to play with Luka, Brunson and DFS are at the top of my list. I'm not going to worry about being scared about what might happen. I'll just wait and feel bad about it when the disaster happens.

[KillerLeft]

I'm not going to worry about being scared about what might happen. I'll just wait and feel bad about it when the disaster happens.

I applaud your optimism, pal. 

You have traversed the last decade of Mavs fandom far more successfully than I.

[fifteenth]

I applaud your optimism, pal. 

You have traversed the last decade of Mavs fandom far more successfully than I.

I don't think it's about optimist, actually. I'm sure it's more likely that the Mavs will fail than succeed. That's sports. 

Traversing the last decade is an in person conversation we should have where I buy you that beer that I've owed you for a decade!! :-) 

In short, 2011, and then plan powder, allowed me to knock the Mavs down my priority list and aim my "thoughts about the future" at other things.

[chaparral]

I would resign Brunson for 15mil next near if Luka was 26 and this team was on the verge of contending.  But we are not on the verge of contending and need multiple pieces to get there and we are up against the LT next season.  Therefore, I believe Brunson should be traded w/the end result being an FRP to the Mavs.

[mavsluvr]

I just don't see it. He's not a "microwave" style shot creator. Brunson is, and I'd be happy to pay a premium for HIM to come off the bench (if it's determined he can't start with Luka, which I don't know that we have determined), but if THJ doesn't fit here as a starter then he should be moved ASAP, while he's still got suitors who wanted to pay him this past summer.

While I get this analysis, I really don't know why people are still talking about whether THJ should come off the bench. 


Just a couple games ago, Nico (who I have it on good authority has the power, training, experience, and qualifications to determine whether players should start), said the Mavs consider Timmy a starter, period, end of story, and that people who don't agree can kindly shut their pie-holes. 

So there we have it. Amirite?

[KillerLeft]

So there we have it. Amirite?

Carlisle used to say the same thing. 

No idea whether they mean it or not. Just following the actions. 

It seems like you think they'll eventually get him back into the starting lineup. I thiiiink I agree, but in the past I felt criticism of THJ was a bit unfair, and this season I'm pretty freaked out by how ineffective he has been. I'm not sure what to think anymore.

[fifteenth]

I think coaches should decide who starts and GMs should always, in public, say all their players are awesome!

[Kammrath]

GMs should always, in public, say all their players are awesome!

"We love our boys in blue!"

[fifteenth]

"We love our boys in blue!"

...right up until the day we trade them!

Or they could say things like..."he's having a down season, he hurts us less coming off the bench, and it'd be great to find someone who would take him based on last seasons play." Maybe our GM should say that!!! 

[mavsluvr]

Carlisle used to say the same thing. 

No idea whether they mean it or not. Just following the actions. 

It seems like you think they'll eventually get him back into the starting lineup. I thiiiink I agree, but in the past I felt criticism of THJ was a bit unfair, and this season I'm pretty freaked out by how ineffective he has been. I'm not sure what to think anymore.

There was an element of a semi-serious attempt to elicit a riposte from fif in that post, but your point is a good one, and let's examine it. 

I think it was you who made a comment recently that I meant to take up. To the effect that THJ isn't nearly the fit in Kidd's system that he was in Carlisle's. I agree with that. 

The thing is, I'm not sure if the bottom line issue here is THJ and all the other underperforming players, or that maybe this coach just isn't very good when it comes to schemes, and is responsible for a lot of the negative synergy we see out there. This roster has its flaws, for sure, and I'm not saying they're a contender, but this collection of players should be doing better than they are. Much better. We know they can be better than they are, because we've seen it in the last two seasons. 

The one thing in Iztok's critique of the offense that I found more worrisome than anything was his conclusion that spacing just isn't something Kidd and his staff think is that important. He provided videos of how the players' positioning, pursuant to Kidd's direction, is ruining the offense, and noted that Kidd has had all the spacing markers on the practice court removed. 

I also think all this strategy to marginalize Luka and center the team around KP has passed its sell-by date. I don't necessarily blame Kidd for that. I would bet that Cuban hired him with the charge to do whatever it takes to get KP back in the All-Star conversation. (OTOH, as some think, if Nico made this decision, then shame on Nico for imposing it and allowing Kidd to continue it). 

All this is to say that I fear we may putter around making incremental changes, shuffling the deck chairs, and continuing to try to fit square pegs into round holes, and end up having this same conversation in one, two, and three seasons. This isn't specifically about THJ, but let's take him as an example, as he has been the player most hurt by the clogged-up offense. 

Whoever re-signed him obviously had in mind that he would be a key piece and would be a substantial positive. If we're writing that idea off after a few months because Kidd can't figure out how to configure a modern offense, and dumping a guy we know can contribute for whatever they can get to cope with Kidd's incompetence, I think that is just a poster child for how all-over-the-place and without goal posts this organization is. (For the record, I am not opposed to trading THJ, specifically. I am talking about the team's seemingly just throwing whatever they can think of at the wall and flailing around, failing to even establish an identity.)  

Okay, end of rant. Thank you in advance for bearing with me.

[mavsluvr]

I think coaches should decide who starts and GMs should always, in public, say all their players are awesome!

I don't know, I sort of like Nico throwing his weight around at this stage of the game. He has been here six months. Kidd's the kind of guy who can get too big for his britches if you don't nip his alpha tendencies in the bud. If Nico wants Timmy to start, I like him overruling Kidd, just on principle's sake. You show 'em who's boss, NH!

[ClutchDirk]

I have Brunson pegged as the new JET type player...starter minutes even though he may not start the game or finish depending on Kidd's decision...I think that would make him happy and justify his next payday...

I am in the Camp of he needs to take some of the load off Luka and feed him in the spots he needs to be successful...

[ItsGoTime]

I think this is semantics. More importantly, imo, is how many minutes do you play, and can you close? I'd probably start him, stagger him and Luka after one of Luka or Brunson leaves the floor in the mid first quarter, and then close with Brunson when it makes sense. Sometimes it'll make sense for him to close, and sometimes it won't. But you don't have to tell him that when you sign him!!!

It’s only semantics if JB himself thinks it is. That’s the question we’ve been trying to get to the answer to for a year now. I don’t think THJ, for instance, thinks it’s semantics.

[KillerLeft]

It’s only semantics if JB himself thinks it is. That’s the question we’ve been trying to get to the answer to for a year now. I don’t think THJ, for instance, thinks it’s semantics.

Absolutely right. There's a human element to all of this we just can't know or predict. 

And, to me, "coming off the bench, but playing huge minutes in a variety of roles"... "starting next to Luka as mostly a secondary guy"..."starting as a PG and changing what Luka's role looks like" are VERY different scenarios. It's possible that only one of those would seem attractive to JB moving forward (though we can obviously only speculate for now). 

The bottom line: I think it's a mistake to assume that this is all totally subject to the wants of Mavs management.

[Scott41theMavs]

There was an element of a semi-serious attempt to elicit a riposte from fif in that post, but your point is a good one, and let's examine it. 

I think it was you who made a comment recently that I meant to take up. To the effect that THJ isn't nearly the fit in Kidd's system that he was in Carlisle's. I agree with that. 

The thing is, I'm not sure if the bottom line issue here is THJ and all the other underperforming players, or that maybe this coach just isn't very good when it comes to schemes, and is responsible for a lot of the negative synergy we see out there. This roster has its flaws, for sure, and I'm not saying they're a contender, but this collection of players should be doing better than they are. Much better. We know they can be better than they are, because we've seen it in the last two seasons. 

The one thing in Iztok's critique of the offense that I found more worrisome than anything was his conclusion that spacing just isn't something Kidd and his staff think is that important. He provided videos of how the players' positioning, pursuant to Kidd's direction, is ruining the offense, and noted that Kidd has had all the spacing markers on the practice court removed. 

I also think all this strategy to marginalize Luka and center the team around KP has passed its sell-by date. I don't necessarily blame Kidd for that. I would bet that Cuban hired him with the charge to do whatever it takes to get KP back in the All-Star conversation. (OTOH, as some think, if Nico made this decision, then shame on Nico for imposing it and allowing Kidd to continue it). 

All this is to say that I fear we may putter around making incremental changes, shuffling the deck chairs, and continuing to try to fit square pegs into round holes, and end up having this same conversation in one, two, and three seasons. This isn't specifically about THJ, but let's take him as an example, as he has been the player most hurt by the clogged-up offense. 

Whoever re-signed him obviously had in mind that he would be a key piece and would be a substantial positive. If we're writing that idea off after a few months because Kidd can't figure out how to configure a modern offense, and dumping a guy we know can contribute for whatever they can get to cope with Kidd's incompetence, I think that is just a poster child for how all-over-the-place and without goal posts this organization is. (For the record, I am not opposed to trading THJ, specifically. I am talking about the team's seemingly just throwing whatever they can think of at the wall and flailing around, failing to even establish an identity.)  

Okay, end of rant. Thank you in advance for bearing with me.

Damn! The clearest expression of Kidd hate I have seen here this season, and it comes from a poster I very much respect.

(Not to mention it's surprising coming from an employee of the organization.)

[mavsluvr]

Damn! The clearest expression of Kidd hate I have seen here this season, and it comes from a poster I very much respect.

(Not to mention it's surprising coming from an employee of the organization.)

LOL. (It's lucky my handlers have given me a little rope.)

Sorry if I wandered off the reservation there. I really don't "hate" Kidd, I just found him a frustrating, make-do, get-an-old-buddy-instead-of-a-proven-success, Cuban-style hire, and haven't seen anything to materially change my opinion, which I had been hoping to do. I'm not sure how hungry Cuban really is to contend any more, but if he still is, I have serious doubts as to whether Kidd is up to the task, and I'm afraid we're just wasting two or three more seasons in another rinse-and-repeat cycle. 



But I could still be wrong and hope I am. SORRY to vent all over you!!