Apologize to Coach Rick

[TXBamanut]

https://twitter.com/IsaacLHarris/status/...SBgEw6EMTA&s=19

[ItsGoTime]

https://twitter.com/IsaacLHarris/status/...SBgEw6EMTA&s=19

Ya, Carlisle has so much more to think about than the Dallas Mavs.

[audiosway]

Carlisle can coach, but has warts. Kidd has already done some things right, but has warts. It's all pointless. There's one major, huge, stinking pile of s**t in the corner of this room. We all know who it is, and nothing the team tries will be truly successful until someone high up in the organization finds enough balls to clean it up.

This is honestly why I've just thought of moving on. As I said before, it's hard for me to keep up with the team anyway being in the bay area. I don't think much will change until Cuban changes or moves on. I hate it too because I feel like I have so much invested mentally in the team over the years. I have a feeling Luka will end up moving on if things keep going this way. It's just hard to watch right now. I mean I hope that Kidd can get things going in the right direction. But, without adding talent nothing will change.

[cow]

This is honestly why I've just thought of moving on. As I said before, it's hard for me to keep up with the team anyway being in the bay area. I don't think much will change until Cuban changes or moves on. I hate it too because I feel like I have so much invested mentally in the team over the years. I have a feeling Luka will end up moving on if things keep going this way. It's just hard to watch right now. I mean I hope that Kidd can get things going in the right direction. But, without adding talent nothing will change.

I got that way with the Cowboys.  And while that organization can be frustrating, Will McClay has covered up a lot of the Joneses shortcomings, coaching hires aside.  

While basketball is my true love, I came to it relatively late in my childhood.  It just wasn't a sport my family, and thus I, followed.  Luckily when we moved to Korea, my school was so tiny we could barely had the number to field soccer and basketball teams.  It also helps it was '92 and Jordan mania.  And when I did return home to Texas with a newfound love for the sport, my home team decided to draft one of my countrymen.  Following the team got easy at that point because not only did he turn out to be one of the sports GOATs, he is also the nicest human being you could cheer for.  So easy that it was easy to overlook the clownish owner.  One could argue that Dirk should probably have more than one ring, but given the era and conference he played in, it's easier to overlook some of the organizational missteps.  

And this is going to sound negative but I can't say I love watching Luka play.  He's tremendously gifted, no doubt, and he'll give you a "how did he manage" that play every game,  but his style of basketball is very James Harden.  And then you have all the Mavs organization missteps, both on and off the court.  It just makes me question my fandom for the team.  I loved watching Jordan play, but I'm certainly not a bulls fan.  I love the Cowboys and Rangers because that's what I grew up watching with my family. 

 Maybe I'm a Mavs fan because of location only and because of Dirk?  Maybe I'm just more of a basketball fan that a fan of any team?  Those are weird questions to be asking when you have a generational player on "your" team.  

*shrug*

[audiosway]

I got that way with the Cowboys.  And while that organization can be frustrating, Will McClay has covered up a lot of the Joneses shortcomings, coaching hires aside.  

While basketball is my true love, I came to it relatively late in my childhood.  It just wasn't a sport my family, and thus I, followed.  Luckily when we moved to Korea, my school was so tiny we could barely had the number to field soccer and basketball teams.  It also helps it was '92 and Jordan mania.  And when I did return home to Texas with a newfound love for the sport, my home team decided to draft one of my countrymen.  Following the team got easy at that point because not only did he turn out to be one of the sports GOATs, he is also the nicest human being you could cheer for.  So easy that it was easy to overlook the clownish owner.  One could argue that Dirk should probably have more than one ring, but given the era and conference he played in, it's easier to overlook some of the organizational missteps.  

And this is going to sound negative but I can't say I love watching Luka play.  He's tremendously gifted, no doubt, and he'll give you a "how did he manage" that play every game,  but his style of basketball is very James Harden.  And then you have all the Mavs organization missteps, both on and off the court.  It just makes me question my fandom for the team.  I loved watching Jordan play, but I'm certainly not a bulls fan.  I love the Cowboys and Rangers because that's what I grew up watching with my family. 

 Maybe I'm a Mavs fan because of location only and because of Dirk?  Maybe I'm just more of a basketball fan that a fan of any team?  Those are weird questions to be asking when you have a generational player on "your" team.  

*shrug*

I've kind of thought that I was a basketball fan rather than a fan of just one team. I started with the Celtics in 80. Growing up in Shreveport my Dad was friends with Robert Parish's Dad. So, we watched the Celtics. I LOVED me some Larry Bird. He's still my favorite of all time.

Then, I moved to Dallas in 96 and started watching them when they drafted Dirk and brought in Nash and Finley. Thus began my love of the Mavs. Cuban has made it hard to watch them. I really like Luka a lot. But, I just don't Cuban letting go of the reins enough to let them put a team around him. I don't know. I guess we'll see.

[KillerLeft]

@"audiosway", I was actually referencing (I now realize too cryptically) Kristaps Porzingis in my post, but don't let me stop your train. I think the Cuban conversation is another good one to have.

[Mak]

I don’t think any significant amount of people actually thought Kidd was a better coach than Carlisle lol. I doubt the Mavs even believe it.

[Kammrath]

I don’t think any significant amount of people actually thought Kidd was a better coach than Carlisle lol. I doubt the Mavs even believe it.

"Better coach" is really an abstract thing. 

But contextually, based on the Mavs current players and situation? I think Kidd is the "better coaching fit."

[MrGoat]

The Pacers are last place in the East right now. We're 4-2.

[SleepingHero]

The Pacers are last place in the East right now. We're 4-2.

One team has Luka Doncic on it.

[Scott41theMavs]

One team has Luka Doncic on it.

And Rick chose not to coach it. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

[Scott41theMavs]

Carlisle can coach, but has warts. Kidd has already done some things right, but has warts. It's all pointless. There's one major, huge, stinking pile of s**t in the corner of this room. We all know who it is, and nothing the team tries will be truly successful until someone high up in the organization finds enough balls to clean it up.

I dunno, I know you didn't get to see the preseason games, but KP looked the best in those that he's looked in a Mavs uniform. Preseason yeah, but the only way for the mess to be cleaned up is for KP to get and stay somewhat healthy and return to that form. Right now, his contract is perhaps the worst in the entire league. No way to chuck it for cap space, and even if we did, the Mavs would still have to get a GM (under Nico as the CEO) in order to target the right players for Nico to land. 

Right now, the best case scenario to dump KP would be for a very-usable-but-very-overpaid rotation player plus an expiring contract. But I don't mean, as of today. I mean, if his value skyrockets. We can't afford to attach any assets to dump him because we have so few assets and need to keep as many good-enough players as we can, or it will be a functional tank.

[mvossman]

"Better coach" is really an abstract thing. 

But contextually, based on the Mavs current players and situation? I think Kidd is the "better coaching fit."

It may be an "abstract thing" but I am guessing if you took a poll from all of the GMs (or similar type folks) Rick would probably be the near unanimous choice.  I'm struggling to see what you might have seen in Kidd's previous head coaching stints that suggest he might be a "better fit" than Rick?  Honestly I think one of the reasons he was chosen was to help out free agent recruiting (which obviously failed).  The question always asked of the "fire Rick" guys was "replace him with who?".  I feared it would be somebody like Kidd.  Its early, and time will tell, but I struggle to find any reason for optimism that Kidd will get more (or as much) out of this team than Rick did.

[Kammrath]

I'm struggling to see what you might have seen in Kidd's previous head coaching stints that suggest he might be a "better fit" than Rick?

On the most simplistic level: Because he ISN'T Rick. 

All the reporting points to KP and Luka (and probably others) not connecting with RC in a positive manner anymore. I do not care how good of a coach you are, if your players aren't "buying-in" and "listening" then you need to go. 

Also, Kidd's other stints imploded when he tried to exercise complete control and dominance over everything. His last stint with LAL and what we have seen so far in DAL is that this is no longer who Kidd is. 

The jury is out on his long-term fit, but in the short-term he isn't RC which goes a long way in and of itself (and we have seen that in the body language as well as the comments of the players, they are digging the change as of now).

[mavsluvr]

The jury is out on [Kidd's] long-term fit, but in the short-term he isn't RC which goes a long way in and of itself (and we have seen that in the body language as well as the comments of the players, they are digging the change as of now).

Followill and Dameris talked about this a little on their pod. 


They were speaking ironically, in the context of the team not looking very good (at least at this point). The were saying that, ironically, this is what Luka and KP wanted -- a "cool coach." But at the end of the day, the point of being an NBA player is not to have a high old time at the frat house. If the players like him, but they don't play well, that doesn't count as a success. 

I don't understand you to be saying anything different. I think you are saying that it was time for a change, and that seems reasonable. But sometimes I get the sense from your postings that the best way to make Kidd look good is to compare him to that massive pile of coaching trash Rick Carlisle. I don't believe that is really what you intend, but ultimately I think we agree that Kidd needs to come up with a better way to justify his existence than throwing Carlisle under the bus. 

Not saying he won't. I hope he does!

[embellisher]

Jason Kidd has a head coaching record, and it’s been pretty awful.  I don’t know why people expect different.  How much will it cost Cuban to eat his contract?

Who cares how much Cuban has to pay to get him out of here, if it comes to that?  Doesn't impact the salary cap at all. And Cuban had showed willingness many times to pay a ton of money, as long as it doesn't lead to repeater luxury tax. Of course, he's going to have to do that too, pretty soon.

[mvossman]

On the most simplistic level: Because he ISN'T Rick. 

All the reporting points to KP and Luka (and probably others) not connecting with RC in a positive manner anymore. I do not care how good of a coach you are, if your players aren't "buying-in" and "listening" then you need to go. 

Also, Kidd's other stints imploded when he tried to exercise complete control and dominance over everything. His last stint with LAL and what we have seen so far in DAL is that this is no longer who Kidd is. 

The jury is out on his long-term fit, but in the short-term he isn't RC which goes a long way in and of itself (and we have seen that in the body language as well as the comments of the players, they are digging the change as of now).

Seems like the new regime is putting a lot of effort into blaming Carlisle for everything "bad" from last year.  I'm not buying into that yet.  I don't remember reading about a lot of Rick/Luka issues.  KP certainly had his issues, but lets see what his attitude is at the end of this year assuming he starts getting used properly (and ever gets on the court enough for it to matter).

[Kammrath]

But sometimes I get the sense from your postings that the best way to make Kidd look good is to compare him to that massive pile of coaching trash Rick Carlisle. I don't believe that is really what you intend, but ultimately I think we agree that Kidd needs to come up with a better way to justify his existence than throwing Carlisle under the bus.

All I aim for is a measured assessment of both guys.

Kidd is not the garbage coach that some are claiming he is. When I see those comments I will do my best to help elevate Kidd to a more reasonable place. If anyone ever claims Kidd is some genius coach, I will respond that his track record does not back up such a claim and I will lower him to a more reasonable place.

RC is not the genius coach that some are claiming he is. When I see those comments I will do my best to bring realism to the conversation about how RC was not connecting with his most important players, wasn't very liked by many in the building (according to reports), and had a decade's worth of evidence pointing to up and down coaching performances and no playoff success. But on the other hand, if someone tries to claim RC is a complete idiot coach and was the cause of everything we have seen in the last ten years I will respond and say that is ridiculous and baseless. 

RC has a longer track record of being a "good" NBA coach than Kidd. But when looking at recent years it is harder to make that claim. IMO RC has been a GREAT NBA coach at times and an average NBA coach for stretches as well. Kidd has a short resume that shows a mixed bag of success as well as some poor relationships with players and a desire for dominance. But Kidd also has a very positive recent stretch as an NBA assistant that shows some promise.

Point being, we all need to take a step back and let this play out for a bit and stop scapegoating either coach. It seems like a change was needed and with time we will see if the current change is a good one or not.

[KillerLeft]

RC is not the genius coach that some are claiming he is.

[audiosway]

@"audiosway", I was actually referencing (I now realize too cryptically) Kristaps Porzingis in my post, but don't let me stop your train. I think the Cuban conversation is another good one to have.

And I totally agree with you that KP is the other stinking pile in the corner of the room. I have a sinking suspicion that one of the reasons Kidd was brought in was to appease KP. Cuban thinks he has a pair of superstars when what he really has is a Superstar and a part time starter.

He can't reach his actual potential of being that "unicorn" for two reasons I think.
1. He can't stay healthy. He ends up each time trying to get back to where he was when he got hurt. Once he is close to back he is hurt again.
2. Mentally he just doesn't have the makeup. He's a constant victim. He's always looking for someone else as to why something isn't working. Rick put him in the best position he could. He hated it because he wasn't a focal point of the offense. Put him where he wants to be and he is inconsistent at best until he gets hurt again. He is inconsistent because he dominates weaker matchups and is getting owned by above average matchups.

No coach will be able to fix that issue.

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Come on now Kamm. Don't make us pull out boring stats to prove this. You know it's true. Rick will have that Indiana team in the playoffs.