2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[KillerLeft]

I would wager they have Burke on the roster when the season starts, or someone doing the same thing (like Dragic), and think it's pretty much a given because that's what caters to their favored offensive setup..

I see this issue very closely to the way you do. But, question:

Do you feel Burke would be quite as important as he was this past season if Hardaway was healthy? What if he's back next season? I realize that their games are different, and that Burke is much more of a shot creator, but just through the math of playing behind another body, I'd say that would lessen the need for Burke, at least a little. 

If Hardaway (or Dinwiddie) is included in a package for the front court help we all think they need, I'm with you - Burke will be back and with a chance of being needed. But, I'm not 100% sure that Hardaway is gone.

[Mavs2021]

I see this issue very closely to the way you do. But, question:

Do you feel Burke would be quite as important as he was this past season if Hardaway was healthy? What if he's back next season? I realize that their games are different, and that Burke is much more of a shot creator, but just through the math of playing behind another body, I'd say that would lessen the need for Burke, at least a little. 

If Hardaway (or Dinwiddie) is included in a package for the front court help we all think they need, I'm with you - Burke will be back and with a chance of being needed. But, I'm not 100% sure that Hardaway is gone.

How in the world was he important at all? He played 441 minutes over 42 games.

From those 441 minutes, he played 175 minutes in games decided by 20 or more points (either way).

I wonder how many games and minutes people think Sterling Brown played last season? Clue: the answer is in the question.

[KillerLeft]

How in the world was he important at all? He played 441 minutes over 42 games.

Well, not to rehash the last few pages, but I agree with the point @"F Gump" is making about the players' roles, and how they fit into the overall plan. 

Because the Mavs clearly prioritized having multiple ball-handlers working together, choosing to start Brunson, they needed plenty of them. They doubled down on this by adding Dinwiddie (which was successfully helpful, clearly). 

Once they committed to play that way, there was a need for a 4th ball-handler (at least) available in the event that one of the main three sustained injury, got into foul trouble, etc. 

"Important" is being used with relativity, of course.

[ItsGoTime]

All you have to look at is in the playoffs, when Luka was out for the first 3 games. The first game was dnp-cd, second he played 4:37 in the first half, 0 in the second, third game he played 4:07 in the game, 3:42 in the first half and :25 in garbage time. 

Keep saying there is a need for Burke on the team, I dare you!

[KillerLeft]

All you have to look at is in the playoffs, when Luka was out for the first 3 games. The first game was dnp-cd, second he played 4:37 in the first half, 0 in the second, third game he played 4:07 in the game, 3:42 in the first half and :25 in garbage time. 

Keep saying there is a need for Burke on the team, I dare you!

It's a decent point, I'll admit.

But, there IS a regular season to get through to qualify for the playoffs. 

And, it's not crucial that the player in this role is Burke, specifically. It's just that Burke is here, already under contract (not a big contract) and whomever is in the role, they won't play very much if all goes according to plan. They know Burke gets that and accepts it with professionalism. That's not a guarantee with anyone else. 

But, to state the obvious, there are others who could fill the role. They're just not on the roster yet. Ntilikina? Green? Brown? None of them qualify for this, specific job description.

[ItsGoTime]

It's a decent point, I'll admit.

But, there IS a regular season to get through to qualify for the playoffs. 

And, it's not crucial that the player in this role is Burke, specifically. It's just that Burke is here, already under contract (not a big contract) and whomever is in the role, they won't play very much if all goes according to plan. They know Burke gets that and accepts it with professionalism. That's not a guarantee with anyone else. 

But, to state the obvious, there are others who could fill the role. They're just not on the roster yet. Ntilikina? Green? Brown? None of them qualify for this, specific job description.

They did in the playoffs. They did in the regular season too considering how little Burke played then too. When the roster is handicapped by 2 players filling unplayable roles, Burke’s role becomes a large luxury when considering SD and JB are point guards playing off guard roles due to circumstance.

[KillerLeft]

Burke’s role becomes a large luxury when considering SD and JB are point guards playing off guard roles due to circumstance.

But that's just it. 

They aren't playing off-guard due to circumstances, this is a conscious choice being made by the team to put multiple ball-handlers on the floor simultaneously. That's how they want to play.

[ItsGoTime]

But that's just it. 

They aren't playing off-guard due to circumstances, this is a conscious choice being made by the team to put multiple ball-handlers on the floor simultaneously. That's how they want to play.

And when they can’t do what they fully want to do, they STILL don’t turn to Burke. I will not reply anymore, this is getting too silly to me.

[KillerLeft]

And when they can’t do what they fully want to do, they STILL don’t turn to Burke. I will not reply anymore, this is getting too silly to me.

I remember them going to Burke a fair amount during the regular season when faced with the need. Fortunately, their main injuries weren't too often sustained by the ball-handlers in question. He did get used some when Luka missed time, and when Brunson was rested. I remember it clearly. 

As I said earlier, I, personally, believe he should've been tried a bit more in that GSW series, but it's just my opinion, of course. 

I'm sorry you think conversing with me is "silly." No one is forcing you to do so - have a great day!

[KillerLeft]

I'm sure this has been suggested by multiple people (in fact, I believe I've read multiple versions of the deal), and I probably would've been against this a month ago, but...

Powell is a near match for Richaun Holmes' deal. How badly does SAC want off of that 4 year deal? Powell isn't expiring, but he's useful as a backup to Sabonis, I'd think, and it does shave two years. 

Am I crazy to wonder if a straight-up one for one deal might have legs? What if the pick is added? If it took the pick to get it done, are we into it? 

I'm still not sure Holmes is an upgrade over Powell as a lob threat or defensively (he might be, but I'm not as sure as others) but that push shot game he has from the center of the floor would've been helpful against the GS zone. I'm pretty sure about that.

[omahen]

I'm sure this has been suggested by multiple people (in fact, I believe I've read multiple versions of the deal), and I probably would've been against this a month ago, but...

Powell is a near match for Richaun Holmes' deal. How badly does SAC want off of that 4 year deal? Powell isn't expiring, but he's useful as a backup to Sabonis, I'd think, and it does shave two years. 

Am I crazy to wonder if a straight-up one for one deal might have legs? What if the pick is added? If it took the pick to get it done, are we into it? 

I'm still not sure Holmes is an upgrade over Powell as a lob threat or defensively (he might be, but I'm not as sure as others) but that push shot game he has from the center of the floor would've been helpful against the GS zone. I'm pretty sure about that.

Sacramento doesn't need Holmes, that is obvious. He is far better than that 15 mpg role behind Sabonis and you can't play them together. They need a cheap back up center and they have plenty on the roster (Len, Metu) and early bird rights on Jones and rights on Queta. However, that of course doesn't mean Sacramento and Dallas are on an island where Sacramento is looking to dump 30 mil of salary. There are other teams looking for centers and this will determine the price. 

I think Sacramento holds very low valuation of Powell, as he is (similar to Holmes) overpaid for the role they need him, imho. The positive is that he is expiring but they would have higher need for a wing. The question is, how they value THJ and his long term contract. They need shooting but they also need defense next to Fox and Sabonis. 

Perhaps lets have a look what could alternative offers look like. Many teams could have a need for a center depending on the moves they make. As it is, the most obvious team needing a center is Charlotte. The interesting thing is they could sign Holmes last year but chose not to do it. 

Charlotte offer: Oubre or Plumlee as expiring contract. Oubre is helpful wing on expiring deal, Plumlee is cheaper than Powell. So unless Sacramento really likes THJ, they might have a better contract to offer. As for assets - I would not give the #13 they have or PJ, so either heavily protected future pick or one of many rookies they have (Bouknight, Jones or Thor). I have no idea how they value those guys, but since they didn't play much, #26 might be more appealing. 

Toronto needs a center. They could offer Birch (cheap back-up center) or SnT Boucher, Young (if they want to play in Sacramento), unless they do something much larger. Toronto doesn't have a pick in this year draft. Of course we don't know if Sacramento prefers a pick this year or one of next ones.

Brooklyn could offer expiring Curry or Claxton SnT (unless they do something bigger). They could miss Curry if Harris returns. They also don't have a pick in this year draft, but they could offer some rookies (Sharpe or Thomas).

[KillerLeft]

@"omahen" What do you think a fair offer from Dallas for Holmes might look like? I have a feeling it will be a "pass" for me, but I'm curious. 

Also, if Claxton is available, I'd be WAY more interested in him than Holmes. What do we think he goes for? Any chance he fits into that smaller MLE the Mavs can offer? I know they can't do a SNT, per @"F Gump".

Sorry if this has all been covered already. I refused to take part in roster conversations during the playoffs of a top-5 or 10 Mavs season ever.

[loki]

In my view Holmes is an upgrade to Powell but still not a closing lineup type of guy. I'd prefer to keep the upside of the 1st round pick. Sign me up though for a deal like Powell/Green or Powell/2nds.

I'm more bearish on THJ's value than most, so I don't feel that a trade based around him has any legs. I'd love to be proven wrong here.

[KillerLeft]

I'm more bearish on THJ's value than most, so I don't feel that a trade based around him has any legs. I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Sorry, I don't get this. What do you mean by "bearish" here? Are you saying you think THJ has greater value than most here, or less?

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In my view Holmes is an upgrade to Powell but still not a closing lineup type of guy.

Probably best not to target him at all, if this is the case. Imo. And, I believe you could be right.

[loki]

Sorry, I don't get this. What do you mean by "bearish" here? Are you saying you think THJ has greater value than most here, or less?

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Probably best not to target him at all, if this is the case. Imo. And, I believe you could be right.

Less. I view him as negative value right now due to the contract, his poor play last year, and the injury.

[omahen]

What do you think a fair offer from Dallas for Holmes might look like? I have a feeling it will be a "pass" for me, but I'm curious.

I think a lot depends on competition. Powell and #26 is a fair offer and better for Sacramento than keeping Holmes. But is there anyone else offering more? Are Mavs willing to offer more if there is competition? Would Sacramento prefer later pick than another this year?

As for THJ, it all depends how they value him. They could go - we don't need that salary because he is not a long term fit next to Fox and Sabonis due to his defense. Or they could see the positives in his shooting they lack. However, if I am Sacramento, I would be hesitant to get him. Hield didn't work next to Fox and he is a far better shooter. I would have much more interest in guys like Bullock and Kleber, which would be likely a show stopper for Mavs. Would Green perhaps have some value for them?

[ItsGoTime]

I'm sorry you think conversing with me is "silly." No one is forcing you to do so - have a great day!

Didn’t say conversing with you is silly. The subject matter and (no-) direction it was heading made that conversation silly to me. Last time we conversed, I offended you, so I discontinued my involvement in this one.

[KillerLeft]

Last time we conversed, I offended you, so I discontinued my involvement in this one.

I don't remember being offended. Takes a lot to offend me. 

Fire away with both barrels, as far as I'm concerned. It's why we're here, right? 

Or don't. Everyone is free to interact with me (or not) as they wish! 

As for the lack of progress you perceive on the topic, idk...I just disagree with you about this topic. I'm not intending to frustrate you or come off as silly. I REALLY believe that 4th ball-handler was (and likely will be) important, as long as Dallas' play-style is what it is.

[ItsGoTime]

I don't remember being offended. Takes a lot to offend me. 

Fire away with both barrels, as far as I'm concerned. It's why we're here, right? 

Or don't. Everyone is free to interact with me (or not) as they wish! 

As for the lack of progress you perceive on the topic, idk...I just disagree with you about this topic. I'm not intending to frustrate you or come off as silly. I REALLY believe that 4th ball-handler was (and likely will be) important, as long as Dallas' play-style is what it is.

Ok, I think this may be a bit of the issue. I believe (I guess it’s more I hope maybe), going back to hiring Kidd and Nico that Cuban made them promise that they will take the year (or at least til the TDL, since they dealt KP and were rumored to be shopping THJ) to evaluate the guys he assembled on the roster before making them into their vision of a team.

A part of this means to me that Kidd played an offense that these guys were already familiar with. Basically he built the offense around the personnel he had. 

This offseason through the 24 TDL, I believe we’ll see the guys who “make the cut” for a Kidd coached team come in and those that don’t, move out. I think Kidd is the type that wants hard nosed defenders who have good basketball skills and instincts.

So in regards to this conversation, I honestly don’t think we know what Kidd’s style and offense is gonna look like in a year or two because he will start bringing in (and developing) players to what he wants to see on the court. Maybe yhat is just wishful thinking, cause I myself was really bored with the “my turn, your turn” style of offense we use out there.

Also, SD was added with little regular season to go, the best we have to go off of with THIS team, right now, is when he really needed a playoff win, who did he go to? I think those minutes speak way more volume than any of our thoughts ever could.

[ItsGoTime]

Also, the previous offense was when I brought up DFS in the conversation around Markus Smart winning DPotY. I explained my reasoning after you said you were done talking to me about it.