2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[MrGoat]

That case was dismissed earlier this month and Holmes was awarded full custody of his son.

If we’re going after Holmes I would hope our first offer is Burke/Brown/Boban instead of Powell. We need upgrades in the front court but if the Kings just need cap relief this would give them the most financial relief (someone can correct me if those contracts don’t match but I believe they did last I checked) and we could keep Powell as a backup which is crucial knowing Maxis injury history. This also opens up spots for our draft pick as well as a tax payer MLE contract. We keep on talking about adding players but we also need to realize that resigning Brunson gives us 15 under contract before we even get to the draft.

Another option would be Hardaway for Holmes/Harkless which would also give us a little better offensive option behind DFS/Bullock than Frank/Josh.

Was going to post when I saw that comment. That is no reason to not go after Holmes after the resolution

https://kingsherald.com/articles/richaun...er-report/

[mvossman]

I'm of the opinion that Timmy's defensive woes make him a non-fit for these Mavs (i.e. a Luka-Brunson-SD-DFS-RB-Maxi-our new center core), as well as taking the ball out of the hands of better offensive players. I get not dumping him to dump him, but on the other hand I firmly believe that playing him in the interests of raising his value for trades the first few months of next year will hurt team chemistry and defense, and likely cost us wins. I would have no problem whatsoever with using our first (it's a 26th pick, folks. How much confidence do you have in our current, untried BT to nail a pick in that range?) to de-clutter our payroll. If we get something helpful back in return, even better.

Timmy is a significantly better player than anyone not in our top 6.  I'm not worried at all about us being worse or losing wins because Timmy is on the team.  He has already lost his starting spot and I don't see that changing.  His offense would be particularly helpful in some cases and I am not worried at all about him taking the ball away from better offensive players (in the playoffs it was clear we needed more players that could do something other than shoot wide open threes).  I agree on long term fit that he is not ideal due to his lack of defense (along with our other 3 offensive players), but that does not mean we burn assets to get rid of his salary, especially when that salary is descending and will look more appealing to other teams as soon as TDL.

I also don't think its a good mentality to say we have not been great in the draft in the past so we should not value late first round picks.  If nothing else we could/should use that pick to get a legit starting center.

[hakeemfaan]

Not sure how wise it is to use two roster spots on cheerleaders, but I guess they've made worse decisions. 

Assuming they keep the 1st round pick, Burke and Brown would have to be on the way out to clear enough roster spots. And if they want to use the taxpayer mid level I would guess that Chriss is on the chopping block next. Of course, a trade could shake this all up.

Everyone can’t play and should not be expected to play.  That’s why teams have veterans who are the cheerleader types who are not actively looking for minutes. No coach plays all the guys and if you fill the bench with a bunch of guys who want to get minutes it will lead to issues.

The only issue with the Mavs roster is that there seems to be quite a few guys who are good guys but shouldn’t command minutes, especially in a playoff situation. That has to change.

[Jommybone]

Timmy is a significantly better player than anyone not in our top 6.  I'm not worried at all about us being worse or losing wins because Timmy is on the team.  He has already lost his starting spot and I don't see that changing.  His offense would be particularly helpful in some cases and I am not worried at all about him taking the ball away from better offensive players (in the playoffs it was clear we needed more players that could do something other than shoot wide open threes).  I agree on long term fit that he is not ideal due to his lack of defense (along with our other 3 offensive players), but that does not mean we burn assets to get rid of his salary, especially when that salary is descending and will look more appealing to other teams as soon as TDL.

I also don't think its a good mentality to say we have not been great in the draft in the past so we should not value late first round picks.  If nothing else we could/should use that pick to get a legit starting center.

This is a very smart post, even though I think we tend to overvalue late first round picks. 

I’m replying to add that I am unconvinced Tim will continue to defend poorly. He was always a willing defender, and Kidd has successfully turned most of the rest of the team into plus defenders. Give him a little more time to adapt to the new expectations. He may surprise us all.

[Scott41theMavs]

Timmy is a significantly better player than anyone not in our top 6.  I'm not worried at all about us being worse or losing wins because Timmy is on the team.  He has already lost his starting spot and I don't see that changing.  His offense would be particularly helpful in some cases and I am not worried at all about him taking the ball away from better offensive players (in the playoffs it was clear we needed more players that could do something other than shoot wide open threes).  I agree on long term fit that he is not ideal due to his lack of defense (along with our other 3 offensive players), but that does not mean we burn assets to get rid of his salary, especially when that salary is descending and will look more appealing to other teams as soon as TDL.

I also don't think its a good mentality to say we have not been great in the draft in the past so we should not value late first round picks.  If nothing else we could/should use that pick to get a legit starting center.

Perhaps you're right as to Timmy. I just think the Mavs have way too many salary issues not to resolve one of them using the draft.

My comment on the draft wasn't that past drafting woes should be of concern, but rather that Nico's inexperience with drafting should be. We don't know how good or bad our scouting team is at this point. 

I understand that the center position has declined in worth in recent years, but I hope you aren't saying they're going to draft a "legit starting center" with the 26th pick. That would be some Nellie-type magic. I assume you mean, rather, that they should trade it for that guy if they can - which is going to require some salary ballast.

---

This is a very smart post, even though I think we tend to overvalue late first round picks. 

I’m replying to add that I am unconvinced Tim will continue to defend poorly. He was always a willing defender, and Kidd has successfully turned most of the rest of the team into plus defenders. Give him a little more time to adapt to the new expectations. He may surprise us all.

His efforts in the time before his injury do not give reason for optimism. SD, never known as an adequate defender before coming here, did a far better job of acclimating to Kidd's defense within his first few games - i.e., a far shorter time than it took THJ to fail to do so.

[Jommybone]

His efforts in the time before his injury do not give reason for optimism. SD, never known as an adequate defender before coming here, did a far better job of acclimating to Kidd's defense within his first few games - i.e., a far shorter time than it took THJ to fail to do so.

You’re reaching. Spencer wasn’t trying to adjust for KP’s inability to switch on anybody.

[F Gump]

My comment on the draft wasn't that past drafting woes should be of concern, but rather that Nico's inexperience with drafting should be. We don't know how good or bad our scouting team is at this point. 

While this is certainly a valid cause for concern - and I agree it has to be a serious consideration in regards to whether the Mavs will get anything helpful from the pick if they use it - there is also the issue that the Mavs can't keep using the excuse that 'We don't draft well, so we should get rid of our picks.'

They simply MUST learn to draft well and develop the picks they draft. Part of that is actually drafting players. If they don't, they have no avenue to cheaper talent that is going to be able to fill roles on a regular basis ....and with Luka on a max deal, plus all the 10M-20M salaries on the roster, they can't make the dollars work without a steady stream of lower cost PLAYABLE talent. There needs to be a pipeline, rather than a one-off thing if they find someone.

Brunson and DFS have been those guys the last couple of years, but now they aren't going to be cheap. The Mavs need to find and add 2-3 replacements at the bottom rungs of the salary scale, minimum or just a bit more, who will be outplaying their contracts by a lot.

Re the existing cast outside the rotation -- Franky might qualify, he's a reasonably good candidate. Green probably is as well. I'm not sure about Chris and whether he has enough ceiling to be in your rotation with some more development. Burke fills a need, but he isn't good enough to force his way into the regular rotation, nor Brown, nor Bobi.

[dynamicalVoid]

Im not trying to argue or get super technical breaking down THJ and Davis Bertans...

But Im not so sure THJ is "significantly" better than Bertans.

My opinion.

[mvossman]

Im not trying to argue or get super technical breaking down THJ and Davis Bertans...

But Im not so sure THJ is "significantly" better than Bertans.

My opinion.

If we just look at the last couple of playoff rounds, Timmy averaged over 35 minutes a game scoring over 17 points a game.  Bertans averaged less than 11 minutes a game scoring 4 points a game.  Timmy was probably one of our top 3 players in his playoff runs and Bertans wasn't close to the top 6.   I find it really hard to argue they are comparable players when it really counts.

[mvossman]

Perhaps you're right as to Timmy. I just think the Mavs have way too many salary issues not to resolve one of them using the draft.

My comment on the draft wasn't that past drafting woes should be of concern, but rather that Nico's inexperience with drafting should be. We don't know how good or bad our scouting team is at this point. 

I understand that the center position has declined in worth in recent years, but I hope you aren't saying they're going to draft a "legit starting center" with the 26th pick. That would be some Nellie-type magic. I assume you mean, rather, that they should trade it for that guy if they can - which is going to require some salary ballast.

---

His efforts in the time before his injury do not give reason for optimism. SD, never known as an adequate defender before coming here, did a far better job of acclimating to Kidd's defense within his first few games - i.e., a far shorter time than it took THJ to fail to do so.

I'm not suggesting they can get immediate help in the draft for the frontcourt.  If they are using the pick for immediate center help, it would have to be in a trade.  We have a ton of potential salary ballast, and contracts like Powell, Burke and Brown make the most sense in that capacity given they are all expiring.  Timmy salary is actually too high for many of the center targets discussed, and he provides more immediate value and potential future asset value than any of those others.

As for fixing our salary problem, we have roughly 20 mil coming off the books after next season (Powell, Burke, Brown, Boban).  If there is a way to send out Timmy or Bertans to address a current need then I am all for that (either a starting center or an over priced big wing like Tobias or Hayward).  But I don't think it makes sense to use an asset to simply dump them.

As for the likelihood that Timmy leans how to play defense well in Kidd's system, I share your pessimism.  Dinwiddie is historically a better defender than Timmy and it does not look like that will be any different here.

[dynamicalVoid]

If we just look at the last couple of playoff rounds, Timmy averaged over 35 minutes a game scoring over 17 points a game.  Bertans averaged less than 11 minutes a game scoring 4 points a game.  Timmy was probably one of our top 3 players in his playoff runs and Bertans wasn't close to the top 6.   I find it really hard to argue they are comparable players when it really counts.

try trading him.

i dont think there is much difference between the two.  neither one is very skilled at playoff winning bball.

tim is the better all around athlete...but cant do shit to contribute to winning unless hes on fire.  Bertans is a more specialized player...seems to move off ball better than THJ and has stats to back up his volume shooting over thj.  maybe his length helps him over THJ in more situations.

both are trash.  I would argue in the right system Bertans could contribute more.  my opinion.  but there isnt much difference

[Jommybone]

both are trash.  

It just boggles my mind that people want to spend time on a “fan” page posting things like this. I don’t see how cheering for the Mavs could possibly be fun with this attitude.

[Jommybone]

While this is certainly a valid cause for concern - and I agree it has to be a serious consideration in regards to whether the Mavs will get anything helpful from the pick if they use it - there is also the issue that the Mavs can't keep using the excuse that 'We don't draft well, so we should get rid of our picks.'

They simply MUST learn to draft well and develop the picks they draft. Part of that is actually drafting players. . . .

I really don’t understand this thinking either. The Mavs mortgaged the future just a few years ago to trade up to draft Luka—the best draft-evaluation-based decision in the whole league over the past decade if you ask me. And then they stole Jalen in the second round. 

Since then, they’ve had one kind of not worthless pick. They used it to get one of what, 4 NBA contributors left in the 2020 draft in Josh Green? Sure, 3 guys picked after him look better today. But several more picked ahead of him look way worse. Very hard for me to expect the Mavs could or should have done better. I mean, Golden State had 3 picks that draft, including the #2 overall. And none of them contributed a minute to their playoff run. So I guess we out drafted them? Might as well blame them for performing so poorly in the lottery.

[F Gump]

I really don’t understand this thinking either. The Mavs mortgaged the future just a few years ago to trade up to draft Luka—the best draft-evaluation-based decision in the whole league over the past decade if you ask me. And then they stole Jalen in the second round. 

Since then, they’ve had one kind of not worthless pick. They used it to get one of what, 4 NBA contributors left in the 2020 draft in Josh Green? Sure, 3 guys picked after him look better today. But several more picked ahead of him look way worse. Very hard for me to expect the Mavs could or should have done better. I mean, Golden State had 3 picks that draft, including the #2 overall. And none of them contributed a minute to their playoff run. So I guess we out drafted them? Might as well blame them for performing so poorly in the lottery.

You're missing the point. It's not that the Mavs have to get every pick right - which no one does - but rather that they need to create a steady stream of cheap, bargain-priced, playable talent. A pipeline, as it were, rather than a one-off that happens here or there.

To do that, it means you have to have the scouting and analysis to identify the talent who will make it, and the internal system to develop that raw talent into ongoing supply of talent that will help supplement your higher priced players, and that eventually might even become one of those guys.

I'm really talking about the guys taken below the top 10, even outside the lottery and in the 20s or 2nd rounders, where the salaries are cheaper, and where the teams with talent will have to pick regularly.

You want to nitpick GS, but along with some misses they've made a living out of finding useful players in those parts of the draft, or young players off the street to develop. That's how they can afford MULTIPLE max players, while the Mavs cannot, because they have an ongoing pipeline of very cheap talent that is being developed and is giving them on-court production. A quick look at their team and recent picks or young free agent additions shows this --

Green - #35
Looney - #30
Poole - #28
Paschall - #41 (since traded to Utah)
Toscano-Anderson - UDFA
Moody - #14
Payton - young FA
Lee - young FA

Green turned into a big money player. Looney and Poole are producing huge results at bargain prices, and on the way to big raises. The others listed are all showing promise - perhaps one of them will be the next one who shines, while working for minimum salary.

The Mavs have had their own hits recently, finally, in DFS and JB (and perhaps Maxi fits here as well). But with DFS and JB graduating (and Maxi already having done so) from the "cheap and productive" category, they MUST continue to focus on having improve their ability to identify and develop some replacements, because they need some now. If you think they have figured it out, then pick 26 is in their pocket to grab that guy.

[Mavs32]

is there something that can be done like this.
Atlanta has too many bodies.  they have a Capella on a longer deal blocking a promising younger center on a cheaper deal.  they have had Collins on the block and they need some bigger wings.
Philly needs more bodies and would probably like a deal like we did with KP where they can move Tobias Harris for two or three more managable contracts. They also need shooting around Harden and Embid.
Dallas needs a center and Collins would be a perfect fit.

So:
Dallas gets Collins and Capella
Philly gets THJ, Bertans and maybe even Kevin Knox from Atlanta (but he would just be an extra body so take it or leave it)
Atlanta get Tobias Harris. Dallas's first this year (after they draft whoever Atlanta wants) and a second from Philly.  If they want they can also take Maxi Kleiber if they have to have him to make the deal work.

im sure Philly or Atlanta say no but is there a framework here?

[Mavs32]

or you could tweak it

Dallas get Collins and Capella
Philly gets THJ, Dwight Powell and Gallinaari (who they can wave or keep)
Atlanta gets Tobias, Maxi and Danny Green (who's $10m is non guaranteed) plus Dallas's pick this year or Josh Green.

Philly gets depth and managable contracts
Atlanta saves a ton of money and reduces number of players
Dallas gets two starters

Luka/SD/Frank
Brunson/Green/Brown
DFS/Bullock
Collins/FA/Bertans
Capella/FA/Chriss

[Chicagojk]

Some off-season talk.  If Toronto is willing to include OG in deals they will be a big hurdle in the marketplace against us as they are also looking at centers.

Some Brunson talk as well

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1003...of-toronto

[Jommybone]

You're missing the point. It's not that the Mavs have to get every pick right - which no one does - but rather that they need to create a steady stream of cheap, bargain-priced, playable talent. A pipeline, as it were, rather than a one-off that happens here or there.

We are ships in the night, amigo. I was trying (poorly perhaps) to say even the great GSW hasn’t outperformed Mavs in the draft recently. I get your outside-the-top-10 focus, but I don’t understand leaving Brunson, Finney-Smith, Kleber out of the equation. 

Your take is certainly the consensus view. At least it seems to be here. So I’m probably the one who can’t see reality. But I just can’t make myself care about late first-round picks. And I can’t make myself think the Mavs suck any worse than the rest of the league and making those picks.

[ItsGoTime]

is there something that can be done like this.
Atlanta has too many bodies.  they have a Capella on a longer deal blocking a promising younger center on a cheaper deal.  they have had Collins on the block and they need some bigger wings.
Philly needs more bodies and would probably like a deal like we did with KP where they can move Tobias Harris for two or three more managable contracts. They also need shooting around Harden and Embid.
Dallas needs a center and Collins would be a perfect fit.

So:
Dallas gets Collins and Capella
Philly gets THJ, Bertans and maybe even Kevin Knox from Atlanta (but he would just be an extra body so take it or leave it)
Atlanta get Tobias Harris. Dallas's first this year (after they draft whoever Atlanta wants) and a second from Philly.  If they want they can also take Maxi Kleiber if they have to have him to make the deal work.

im sure Philly or Atlanta say no but is there a framework here?

I think the Philly part is pretty close. If they value Knox, I’d think that would be enough. Atlanta giving up not only the BY FAR best player in the deal, but possibly the 2 best players in the deal makes this very lopsided for the Mavs. I believe we actually have a player or 2 on roster that Atl would take in order to let go of Collins and Capela, not sure many in our fanbase is willing to hear the names though.

[ItsGoTime]

We are ships in the night, amigo. I was trying (poorly perhaps) to say even the great GSW hasn’t outperformed Mavs in the draft recently. I get your outside-the-top-10 focus, but I don’t understand leaving Brunson, Finney-Smith, Kleber out of the equation. 

Your take is certainly the consensus view. At least it seems to be here. So I’m probably the one who can’t see reality. But I just can’t make myself care about late first-round picks. And I can’t make myself think the Mavs suck any worse than the rest of the league and making those picks.

They certainly weren’t doing themselves any favors when their top draft guy is nowhere to be found come time to draft!