The last 2 NBA champions

[michaeltex]

You're correct that Lopez was an important player for the Bucks in this postseason, however I'd point out that in pretty much every 4th quarter this series, when a championship was on the line, the Bucks took him off the floor. Portis is a good player, and Giannis is obviously a generational talent. My point was not "big men bad" but that your bigs must be skilled and able to stay on the floor defensively. Traditional centers are not dead, exactly, but it's a mistake to pay big money to them if they can't punish small ball. Lopez makes $13 million this year- I think that's a fair value. I would not go over that kind of money for any traditional center.

Size still matters, but as you point out, you need skills to go with it. I think a key role for Lopez and Portis is to play well enough to let GA get some rest and make it to the 4th quarter still energetic and without excessive foul encumbrance, so he can be the star everyone expects him to be.

[Branduil]

Size still matters, but as you point out, you need skills to go with it. I think a key role for Lopez and Portis is to play well enough to let GA get some rest and make it to the 4th quarter still energetic and without excessive foul encumbrance, so he can be the star everyone expects him to be.

Yes, and this is also another similarity with the previous Lakers... during the regular season McGee and Dwight could bang against other center and protect AD, and then in the playoffs they unleashed Center AD while the other 2 took a lessened but still important role. The key is to not get into a situation where you're paying too much money to guys who can get "played off the floor" and yet you're still forced to play them, i.e. KP and Gobert vs. the Clippers.

[Dahlsim]

Yes, and this is also another similarity with the previous Lakers... during the regular season McGee and Dwight could bang against other center and protect AD, and then in the playoffs they unleashed Center AD while the other 2 took a lessened but still important role. The key is to not get into a situation where you're paying too much money to guys who can get "played off the floor" and yet you're still forced to play them, i.e. KP and Gobert vs. the Clippers.

The last 2 champions were different from each other in that respect.  The Lebron Lakers get the benefit of ring chasers that jump on board for less money to go to a destination city with a stacked roster. 

As Giannis said,  that's the "easy way" of the Super Teams.   
The Bucks had to draft their star, stay with a core for 8 years working around Giannis & Middleton then 4 more years sticking with their guys like Brook Lopez,  Pat Connaughton, Donte DiVincenzo. 

Then they worked the traditional player acquisition system all within CAP constraints to add guys like Jrue Holiday, P.J. Tucker and Bobby Portis.  
No cheap route for this last champion, they did it more the way the Mavericks did, building around a long term loyal star, the Dirk way! 

https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/...3181048834

[sterlingmallory]

I think versatility is the most important thing. You need to be able to play big and go small depending on the match-up. The playoffs is all about match-ups and being able to counter whichever team you happen to face. You have to be able to play fast and play slow when needed, go big or small, run pick and roll or iso. It's so hard to win if you can only do one thing well. In a 7 game series the other team will take away what you do well and if you can't counter then you're in trouble.

[KillerLeft]

I think versatility is the most important thing. You need to be able to play big and go small depending on the match-up.

I wholeheartedly agree, and that's why fewer and fewer big guys are worth the max. A max contract should only be given to players who will ABSOLUTELY finish close games for you. Players who you'll want on the floor in any situation, regardless of the other team's strategy.

[Mak]

The Bucks had essentially two 7-foot players in their top 5 most playoff-minutes played so idk if it’s completely accurate to say they “went small” in the playoffs. 

But ya, in general more dynamic and versatile skilled players is usually a good thing and a probably a good trend to follow.

[ThisIStheYear]

The last two champs both played very good defense. Sure, they have elite offensive players too, and offense is more important, but D isn’t dead. Ultimately, you’re going to need some balance to bring home a title.  And, you usually need length on the floor to have a good defense.

[Mak]

The last two champs both played very good defense. Sure, they have elite offensive players too, and offense is more important, but D isn’t dead. Ultimately, you’re going to need some balance to bring home a title.

Good seein ya still around, TITY! Always bringin the tough, but fair, analysis.

[Mak]

On that note, while defense is obviously very important, something easier to quantify quickly is just flat out above-average efficiency and production. The defense,lineups,  gameplan, etc can all become easier and improved if there are at least players on the roster producing positively. 


The Bucks had 5 players each logging over 1,000 minutes over the regular+post season with a Player Efficiency Rating above average:

-Giannis
-Holiday
-Middleton
-Portis
-Lopez 

With the exception of Portis, the other 4 were also the main starters and leaders in minutes. 


In Dallas we had 3 players meeting the same criteria:

-Luka
-Powell
-Brunson

And essentially only Luka was a main starter and leader in minutes.

[KillerLeft]

The Bucks had essentially two 7-foot players in their top 5 most playoff-minutes played so idk if it’s completely accurate to say they “went small” in the playoffs. 

But ya, in general more dynamic and versatile skilled players is usually a good thing and a probably a good trend to follow.

I think he's referring to the time that Lopez was pulled and Giannis was moved to the 5. That tactic seems to be what turned the tied from down 0-2. Made Ayton into a complete negative for the rest of the series and completely annihilated PHX's pick and roll stuff. 

I agree with you that Giannis isn't "small", and that's why I never thought the term "small ball" worked in every situation for which people use it.

[Mak]

I think he's referring to the time that Lopez was pulled and Giannis was moved to the 5. That tactic seems to be what turned the tied from down 0-2. Made Ayton into a complete negative for the rest of the series and completely annihilated PHX's pick and roll stuff. 

I agree with you that Giannis isn't "small", and that's why I never thought the term "small ball" worked in every situation for which people use it.

Ya I think that was a smart move tbh … but it was just a temporary adjustment in that specific situation more than how they succeeded overall. Even generously labeling Giannis as a “small” for the sake of this topic, they still had 7-foot Lopez logging top 5 starter minutes overall in the regular and post season. 

So it’s prob better to look at bigger picture stuff for team-building and then just make sure a coach has the tools to make these adjustments for niche situations as needed in a playoff series (and also hope the coach actually makes the adjustments). If we’re talking about just a handful of games against 1 team to win a title, Dallas putting JJ Barea in the starting 5 was also an excellent move but it’s probably not a good idea to build a team around consistently starting a JJB type player.

[KillerLeft]

Ya I think that was a smart move tbh … but it was just a temporary adjustment in that specific situation more than how they succeeded overall. Even generously labeling Giannis as a “small” for the sake of this topic, they still had 7-foot Lopez logging top 5 starter minutes overall in the regular and post season. 

Yes, nobody is arguing that. 

The point is that they were in a situation (with overall talent) where they could take Lopez off of the floor when they had to, without it creating a situation that generated "does the coach or star player hate Lopez?" clicks for months and months. The Mavs, just for example, literally do not have the option to pull Porzingis if he's healthy. He's the highest paid player on the team.

I think the point is that when you invest BIG money in a big (not Jokic, Embiid, etc, but a normal big)... A) you're buying a pressure to play them in situations you probably shouldn't and B) you're making the team-building road to the sort of versatile talent you really need more difficult. 

I don't think anyone wants their team to be smaller than the next. Only better.

[Mak]

Ya Porzingis would be our “small” front court player in this analogy that stays in the lineup like Giannis stayed in the Bucks lineup.  With Maxi, Boban, etc being the benched “big”. 


For a handful of games in niche situations, I can see it working for sure. Heck, it could even work for longer stretches as long as KP and Luka are playing together like the superstar duo they are supposed to be after Kidd injects his intangibles into em.

[KillerLeft]

Ya Porzingis would be our “small” front court player in this analogy that stays in the lineup like Giannis stayed in the Bucks lineup.

That was the dream, for sure. Unfortunately, the reality is that he's nowhere remotely close to the level of mobility or quickness needed for that to work on defense. He really doesn't have a "good position" on defense. It's a pickle.

[mvossman]

That was the dream, for sure. Unfortunately, the reality is that he's nowhere remotely close to the level of mobility or quickness needed for that to work on defense. He really doesn't have a "good position" on defense. It's a pickle.

I think this is based more on the limited sample of this recent season coming back from injury as opposed to his entire career before that.  I think this mindset assumes that a basic meniscus tear was the last straw in permanently ruining his mobility, versus him never really getting his legs under him after returning from the injury mid season.  I'm not sure that is a good assumption to make.  I don't know what he is going to be like next season, but I feel like there is at least a reasonable chance he is closer to bubble KP than what we saw this season.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think this is based more on the limited sample of this recent season coming back from injury as opposed to his entire career before that.  I think this mindset assumes that a basic meniscus tear was the last straw in permanently ruining his mobility, versus him never really getting his legs under him after returning from the injury mid season.  I'm not sure that is a good assumption to make.  I don't know what he is going to be like next season, but I feel like there is at least a reasonable chance he is closer to bubble KP than what we saw this season.

Just to inform you that KL hated KP's defense even in the bubble, so any argument about diagnosing last year is relatively moot to him.

[Mak]

Under a hypothetical ‘small ball’ scenario, KP wouldn’t have to be the first line of defense that anchors everything. He could just be the guy who happens to be playing Center in the overall defensive scheme, not the literal centerpiece it’s built around. And I don’t see why he’s not physically / athletically capable of doing that much. 

Even if he’s lost a step due to injury and isn’t the same as his earlier years when he was an absolute beast —, he’s still really really freaking tall, long, and quick / fast overall. 


The coach actually forming that ideal defensive scheme and the front office actually positioning 4 other complimentary plus-defenders on the roster capable of excelling within that scheme and those 4 guys also not being negatives on offense, allowing the defense to not be put under too much pressure  — THAT is a bit tougher to visualize at the moment.

[dirkfansince1998]

That was the dream, for sure. Unfortunately, the reality is that he's nowhere remotely close to the level of mobility or quickness needed for that to work on defense. He really doesn't have a "good position" on defense. It's a pickle.

On defense he really turned into the anti unicorn. Traditional bigs bully him in the paint and dominate the board because he lacks strength. Small ball bigs and perimeter players can attack him of the dribble or get open shots because he isn´t quick enough on close outs. Don´t even want to mention the pick and roll drop coverage disaster.
It´s difficult to build any kind of defense with a player like him on the floor. No matter who he guards...it´s a bad matchup.

[KillerLeft]

I think this is based more on the limited sample of this recent season coming back from injury as opposed to his entire career before that.  I think this mindset assumes that a basic meniscus tear was the last straw in permanently ruining his mobility, versus him never really getting his legs under him after returning from the injury mid season.  I'm not sure that is a good assumption to make.  I don't know what he is going to be like next season, but I feel like there is at least a reasonable chance he is closer to bubble KP than what we saw this season.

This is definitely the question. None of us know for sure. 

Some think this was a temporary issue born from not being healthy enough for long enough to truly get in shape and in "movement rhythm." I can't say this is ridiculous - it might be true. For his sake, I hope this is it. But if so, what's our general level of confidence that a reasonable interim will pass before the next injury? Is he going to take a year to work back from all of them?

Others think that KP's many injuries, "basic" and otherwise, have started to exact a cumulative toll on his physical abilities, and that even if he's able to work back into better shape, he might not ever recapture the movement-ability that earned him the "unicorn" nickname. 

We even have some who think it's all in his head, and that his entitled attitude (or justified frustration, depending on your POV) about how Carlisle used him or about his relationship with (and status relative to) Luka contributed greatly to his sudden drop in defensive effectiveness. Basically, that he wasn't close to fully engaged. There might be some truth to this, too, but is he really of a level that would make dealing with him (if he's actually this challenging of a personality) worthwhile? 

I can buy all three lines of thinking above, but I'm personally most invested in the "already in decline" camp, and I think we can also mix in the simple idea that teams are getting better at isolating big, stiff guys in the modern spread-pick-and-roll, the concept on which like 4/5 of NBA teams' offenses are built. It's possible that guys who are 7'4" are simply becoming less at home in the NBA right in front of our eyes.

Regardless, when I see Porzingis move these days, I'm reminded of Shawn Bradley, not of Giannis or AD, which is closer to what I expected, maybe somewhat naively. 

The bottom line for me (and others, but not for everyone) is that this is simply an untenable situation. I could be wrong, and I'd LOVE that, honestly. If he could just find a way to be above average defensively and to punish smaller players when the defense switches, that would pave the way for him to do what was intended: pull opposing bigs out of the paint to make space for Luka to dominate. Personally, I don't hold much confidence that he can do either of those things, and I believe that he'll have to do BOTH to even approach becoming the impact player we all hoped (believed?) he'd be. 

I was ALL IN on the trade at the time, and I really wasn't shocked when they maxed him before he had ever suited up for the team. Looking back, I think there was reason to question these moves (especially the contract) but I won't claim to have seen it at the time. I was up to my back teeth in Mavs-flavored Kool Ade, just like everyone else. 

I voted that he'd be here in @"omahen"'s poll, mostly because I buy the idea that with so much invested in the player, Cuban will likely hope that the change of coach, the healthy offseason and another year of maturation from Luka will make a significant difference. I know many here feel that way, too, and I sincerely hope that's the case if KP is still here when the dust clears.

[KillerLeft]

It´s difficult to build any kind of defense with a player like him on the floor. No matter who he guards...it´s a bad matchup.

Yeah, in the spread-pick-and-roll era, against the good teams, you don't get to decide who on your team has to play defense. This is one of the reasons, imo, people mistakenly think teams don't play defense anymore, because the good teams immediately find any weakness you have on that end. 

If KP moves next year like he did this year, he'll be the target while he's on the floor, at least by the top 50% of NBA coaches. I really don't think there's a way to hide him.