Dameris and Followill on the Presser

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

I was completely unbothered by that. Cuban SHOULD have the final say (I seriously have no clue why that bothers anyone). 

Owners have the "final say" in big decisions but they dont really play GM like Cuban.  I dont understand how you dont understand what Cuban and Jerry Jones are doing is VASTLY DIFFERENT from most owners.  

A real GM will go to an owner and say "hey we're about to trade for this guy with a big contract?  is that ok with you financially?"  Or "Mr. Buss Kobe and Shaq cant get along.  We have to trade one.  Your thoughts on which one?"

For the Mavericks, 90% of the organization puts in the leg work and decides Saddiq Bey should be the pick.  Then Bob whispers to Cuban and Green is the pick blindsiding everyone.

Or the GM puts in the legwork to sign Andre Iguodala.  Then Cuban decides at the last second he wants to show cartoons to Dwight Howard instead.

Donnie puts in the legwork to draft Giannis.  Then Cuban decides he needs the cap space to pursue a free agent.

Do you think Steve Balmer or Joseph Tsai do any of these things?  Based on everything that's come out in the last few months, Cuban might be worse than Jerry Jones.

[fifteenth]

Tbqh, it sounds to me like there's not really a plan, as far as structural matters are concerned. But we don't have complete information, and I would be very happy to learn my apprehensions are unfounded.

My hope would be that Cuban provides the space needed for Nico to create structure, and is able to keep himself from undermining said structure.

[mavsluvr]

My hope would be that Cuban provides the space needed for Nico to create structure, and is able to keep himself from undermining said structure.

Indeed.

[Kammrath]

I dont understand how you dont understand what Cuban and Jerry Jones are doing is VASTLY DIFFERENT from most owners.  

A real GM will go to an owner and say "hey we're about to trade for this guy with a big contract?  is that ok with you financially?"  Or "Mr. Buss Kobe and Shaq cant get along.  We have to trade one.  Your thoughts on which one?"

For the Mavericks, 90% of the organization puts in the leg work and decides Saddiq Bey should be the pick.  Then Bob whispers to Cuban and Green is the pick blindsiding everyone.

Or the GM puts in the legwork to sign Andre Iguodala.  Then Cuban decides at the last second he wants to show cartoons to Dwight Howard instead.

Donnie puts in the legwork to draft Giannis.  Then Cuban decides he needs the cap space to pursue a free agent.

Because I don't think the evidence is there that Cuban IS like Jerry. Just don't think the data points that way. 

And you can take what evidence we do have and construct the narrative above, but I do not think that is accurate. I think that is a biased construction that paints Cuban as the villain.

We have NEVER seen Cuban alongside another GM and we have 13 years of the same coach too. Those things just changed. We will all know the truth pretty quickly. If things go the same the only constant is Cuban (and you will be right and I will be wrong). But if things get massively better then we know that the problem was Donnie/RC and not Cuban (and I will be right and you will be wrong).

Time will tell. Time will reveal the real narrative and the real issues.

[fifteenth]

But if things get massively better then we know that the problem was Donnie/RC and not Cuban (and I will be right and you will be wrong).

There is also the possibility that Cuban does more than he has in the past to allow his GM to create healthy structure and does less than he as in the past to undermine his GM's decisions

[KillerLeft]

There is also the possibility that Cuban does more than he has in the past to allow his GM to create healthy structure and does less than he as in the past to undermine his GM's decisions

Correct. 

There are no definitive answers coming about the last group (Cuban, Donnie, Coach Carlisle) based on how this new group does. We might be able to clearly deduce SOME things, sure, but it's not going to change anyone's evaluation of how those things went at the time.

[Kammrath]

There is also the possibility that Cuban does more than he has in the past to allow his GM to create healthy structure and does less than he as in the past to undermine his GM's decisions

Yes, also true. 

BUT based on the rhetoric it doesn't sound like Mark is proposing change to his role. It sounds like he is going to operate as he has before. So I THINK we will get a good sense of the problem. 

That's my current take, anyway, based on what I have all heard and read.

[mvossman]

Yes, also true. 

BUT based on the rhetoric it doesn't sound like Mark is proposing change to his role. It sounds like he is going to operate as he has before. So I THINK we will get a good sense of the problem. 

That's my current take, anyway, based on what I have all heard and read.

He stated he still has final say, but admitted a lack of organizational structure that Nico will hopefully improve.  That could be a significant difference from business as usual.

[Kammrath]

He stated he still has final say, but admitted a lack of organizational structure that Nico will hopefully improve.  That could be a significant difference from business as usual.

It could be. 

But it sounds to me like Cuban's role is not what is changing in any way (in fact Cuban seemed defensive about the notion that his role needs to change). It sounds to me that what is changing is what happens BELOW him (i.e. the former roles of Donnie and RC).

[mavsluvr]

We have NEVER seen Cuban alongside another GM and we have 13 years of the same coach too. Those things just changed. We will all know the truth pretty quickly. If things go the same the only constant is Cuban (and you will be right and I will be wrong). But if things get massively better then we know that the problem was Donnie/RC and not Cuban (and I will be right and you will be wrong).

Might I respectfully suggest that a search for the truth is unlikely to reveal that either (1) Cuban was 100% perfect and Donnie/RC were 100% trash, or (2) vice versa. 


This is a complex situation, and the probability exists that every key person involved did some good things, but also contributed in some way to the problems. 

Since we are examining a scenario where we know that a number of things have not gone as well as could be hoped, and are looking at the organization's attempts to improve, there will be an inherent focus for purposes of the discussion on mistakes that have been made. I don't think the circumstances really lend themselves well to an I'm right/you're wrong type of analysis. 

Realize you may see it differently.

[Kammrath]

Might I respectfully suggest that a search for the truth is unlikely to reveal that either (1) Cuban was 100% perfect and Donnie/RC were 100% trash, or (2) vice versa. 

OF COURSE. No debate. 

But generally speaking some are more responsible for certain aspects within an organization and so "assigning blame" can be a helpful exercise. It just has to be done carefully and soberly. 

And YES, even if Donnie and RC were really poor at their jobs recently, Cuban as their BOSS is accountable no matter what to a certain extent. But he DID change things, so we will see if he is correcting HIS errors or if the root issues are in HOW he operates as a owner.

[KillerLeft]

He stated he still has final say, but admitted a lack of organizational structure that Nico will hopefully improve.  That could be a significant difference from business as usual.

Yes, and any number of other things might be different, too. And, this group will have Luka for (hopefully) the first decade they're here (though I doubt Kidd lasts that long). 

The combo of Cuban, Donnie and Carlisle wasn't good enough. Dirk's era was a shame. We ALL agree on that. 

I think it's borderline INSANE to look at those three people, take in the info we know - what we can hear with our ears and see with our eyes - and conclude that Rick Carlisle was the part of that trinity that held this thing back. But, it's whatever, at this point. He's no longer the coach here. 

What we will learn in the near future is whether the trinity of Cuban, Harrison and Kidd will be successful. We can compare the entirety of these groups' success or failure a little, and pretty easily. We can't, imo, compare individual qualifications based on whether either trio does. 

Donnie vs. Nico, for example: I personally think that in time, Harrison will look like a great fit for this job, possibly better than Donnie ever was. But, what percentage of that will be due to his ability to work with Cuban? If you put either of them in a different situation, with a different team, would the same person still end up looking better? And, for that matter, IF Harrison comes in and smokes Donnie's track record right away, that's great, but doesn't it say more about how dumb it was for Cuban to keep Donnie through Dirk's entire career than anything? Isn't the truly intelligent way to evaluate either coach imagining how either would do with the SAME owner and GM? I could ask 50 more questions off the top of my head just like this that no (honest) person here can truly answer in a binary, fact-based way. 

The point is that nothing that happens over the next five years can really tell us all that much (definitively) about the last 5 years. This is year 1, and we'll learn some things that can help us predict FUTURE strengths and weaknesses, but these conclusions being drawn about the past are ridiculous, because everything has changed. 

I'm sure we STILL have disagreements here about whether going from Don Nelson to Avery Johnson was a good move, but the difference is that we've moved on. At the end of this bizarre, circular discussion, Donnie and (the great) Rick Carlisle are no longer employed by the Mavs. I'd think that those who were happy about that would be excited to talk about the NEW, rather than continue to argue about the OLD.

---

Might I respectfully suggest that a search for the truth is unlikely to reveal that either (1) Cuban was 100% perfect and Donnie/RC were 100% trash, or (2) vice versa. 

[Kammrath]

I think it's borderline INSANE to look at those three people, take in the info we know - what we can hear with our ears and see with our eyes - and conclude that Rick Carlisle was the part of that trinity that held this thing back.

[mavsluvr]

OF COURSE. No debate. 

But generally speaking some are more responsible for certain aspects within an organization and so "assigning blame" can be a helpful exercise. It just has to be done carefully and soberly. 

And YES, even if Donnie and RC were really poor at their jobs recently, Cuban as their BOSS is accountable no matter what to a certain extent. But he DID change things, so we will see if he is correcting HIS errors or if the root issues are in HOW he operates as a owner.

It's always tempting in a somewhat ambiguous situation to simplify the narrative by designating heroes and villains. 

If things massively improve, as we all hope, I don't think it follows that Donnie and Rick were the villains or that Cuban did everything right. It probably means that the new voices are trying new things and Cuban is (hopefully) also making improvements in his areas of responsibility, all of them being educated by the mistakes of the past. 

As an example, Mark evidently did not consider Carlisle as on that much of a different page, as he was planning to continue to ride with him, at least for a while. Rick was the one who apparently found the situation untenable. This is not to say either of them was totally right or totally wrong, but that setting the problem up as Mark v Rick may not be a useful construct for getting at the facts. As you mention, it is worth examining the mistakes all parties made, along with their successes, to get to the truth, as much as we can, anyway.

[Kammrath]

If things massively improve, as we all hope, I don't think it follows that Donnie and Rick were the villains or that Cuban did everything right.

I am not suggesting that, especially "Cuban did everything right." Not one bit. 

But I do think it is very likely that the "lion's share" of responsibility for the "cluster" of the last few years falls somewhere. I think generally speaking either Cuban is more responsible or Donnie/RC were more responsible. And I think the next year will give us some decent (though never final or complete) answers on that.

[mavsluvr]

I am not suggesting that, especially "Cuban did everything right." Not one bit.

Really? Because you sometimes come across like you are assuming the position of Chief Washer of Cuban's Truck, to use a Fish trope. 




(Comment delivered gently, with humor and love.)

[Kammrath]

Really? Because you sometimes come across like you are assuming the position of Chief Washer of Cuban's Truck

Not at all. My general thoughts on Cuban are pretty negative. 

But I think MANY have very unfairly piled on him during all this. So in this season I just have been working against what I think is a biased demonizing of Cuban and an often biased angelizing of RC.

[mavsluvr]

But I think MANY have very unfairly piled on him during all this. So in this season I just have been working against what I think is a biased demonizing of Cuban and an often biased angelizing of RC.

So, you are endeavoring to provide a counterweight to what you perceive as the board being overly critical of Cuban and giving RC too much of a pass?


That would explain a lot.

[cow]

I don't thing being negative of Cuban is unfair.  He ignored the business operations portion of the Mavs and look at that scandal.  With the triangle of trust falling apart this summer, it doesn't seem like he did a much better job of having organizational structure in place on the basketball operations side.  His comments in the presser were concerning as he seemed to talk out of both sides of his mouth.  Saying the decision structure is going to stay the same but then saying he hired Nico because of

I love the Nico hire and nothing we've heard from him has changed that.  It does give me some faith in the team moving forward.

[Kammrath]

So, you are endeavoring to provide a counterweight to what you perceive as the board being overly critical of Cuban and giving RC too much of a pass?

Correct. 

I don't like the board settling into what I perceive as "extreme" and "unnuanced" opinions and so I will often hop onto the side that I think is under represented to try to move things more toward what I perceive to be truth in all of its complexity. 


I think Cuban is an arrogant prick in so many ways who is lacking in self-awareness. But I also think he is a really smart guy who at least knows he doesn't know everything about basketball. I think he loves money and loves the Mavericks and wants to win above all. I think he LISTENS to the opinions and advice of those around him who he thinks will lead to winning. I think Cuban convinced himself (as much as many on this board) that RC was THE coaching ticket to winning and that RC should be listened to and followed basically into hell. I think Cuban even listened to RC on GMing type decisions too (just my hunch). I think Cuban's trust in RC was misguided (I could be wrong of course and time may prove that). 

But that doesn't mean RC is the worst thing. He was awesome those first few years in DAL. A much needed change of voice that really captured those first rosters and got amazing things out of them. But the last ten years? I think his dark sides started to fester and things were mostly below average. I suspect the success he had in his first three years in DAL might have gone to his head. 

But I digress....to your original question: yes, that is what I am up to.