MAVS NEWS:

[Knutsen]

The crazy part was comparing on-court Lively to on-court AD. Speaking of top 5 Centers... Davis is what they look like.

It’s extremely sour grapes now, but that one game against the Rockets was so much fun, how he flat out dominated Sengun and the whole Rockets squad for three quarters on both ends of the floor, wasn’t it?

[KillerLeft]

Speaking of top 5 Centers... Davis is what they look like.

Agreed. He'd be in my top 5, for sure. It's a shame someone couldn't thoroughly convince HIM that he was a center over a decade ago, imho. It was more annoying than I thought having to pretend it was a good idea to invest time and money into an additional center to play next to him. Part of the value of having a top 5 player at their position SHOULD be (imo) being able to go a little light on investing in the other players at that same position. 

But, to your point, he's one of the rare centers who plays at a STAR level on BOTH sides of the court. In fact...if his health, effort and attitude about his role were all in line he'd probably be number 1 on my list. It's a shame our experience with him was tied into that horrible trade, because he never really had a chance here.

[FireNicoHarrison]

Healthy Davis is (was) a top 3/top 2 center in the league.

His problem are that he doesn't want to play at the 5, his bad attitude (shoot 3s or midrange Js), heavy injury prone obviously and weak mindset.

Those famous three quarters against the Rockets were a fluke and mostly Houston was a dysfunctional team worse than the Mavs.

If, big IF, Nico stupid Harrison would have asked Reaves (and i don't love AR) the situation would have been completely different. At least it was a sense.

[windjc]

The Mavs might just be lying about his health you know, not try to depreciate an asset further.

Hey Smitty ^^^^^ exhibit B.

[hakeemfaan]

The crazy part was comparing on-court Lively to on-court AD. Speaking of top 5 Centers... Davis is what they look like.

No one is comparing their games. C’mon. Everyone knows AD is greatness if he could stay healthy. That’s why I used the term All World when talking about AD which I would never use with Lively. 

Half this board was ready to run AD out of town because he was always hurt. Yet we want to extend and give a longer leash to a guy who has not managed to stay healthy even in his younger days? 

As I said the Mavs probably have no choice but to extend him at a friendly deal if possible because his trade value right now is so low. However, I am not holding out much hope for a guy whose game is built much more on raw athleticism and foot speed than skills, and has had recurring leg injuries.

[FireNicoHarrison]

Health is the most important skill in sport history.

[hakeemfaan]

Health is the most important skill in sport history.

As they say availability is the biggest ability.  However, I wouldn't go as far as saying that skill is not important.

When Curry kept getting hurt early in his career, the Warriors were patient because they knew the skill level.  Embiid same way with his team. Old timers like me will also remember Ilgauskas who came back from recurring leg injuries to have a solid career.  In his case too, the skill level was high.

With Lively, his skill levels are directly tied to his incredible athletic ability.  If there is a diminishment in that, I don't know how good of a NBA player he is really.  When such a player has recurring injuries, I am not at all having any hope from him.  Even if he comes back, you are always on pins and needles with such a player because you don't know when he will be out for a long while again.  How can you go forward as a GM when you are always unsure about the availability of a player? 

It is sad, because he seems like a great guy and extremely hard working as well.

[hakeemfaan]

Healthy Davis is (was) a top 3/top 2 center in the league.

His problem are that he doesn't want to play at the 5, his bad attitude (shoot 3s or midrange Js), heavy injury prone obviously and weak mindset.

Those famous three quarters against the Rockets were a fluke and mostly Houston was a dysfunctional team worse than the Mavs.

If, big IF, Nico stupid Harrison would have asked Reaves (and i don't love AR) the situation would have been completely different. At least it was a sense.

One of the few times I disagree with you, other than the part about AD being great when he was healthy.

a) I never blamed or judged AD or Christie based on the trade. They were not responsible for it.

b) AD was a guard growing up and had a late growth spurt.  So while we want him to play like a 6'11" guy and be more assertive down low, it is difficult for a guy who didn't grow up dominating his peers that way.  So you can see why he falls back more to mid range shots and why he doesn't play the 5. Despite what we or others want him to be, it didn't stop him from being a great player among the top 1% of great talent who even make it to the NBA.  Maybe he could have been better but it's like saying Tyson Chandler could have been a great player if he developed a jump shot, but ultimately both AD and Tyson contributed immensely to title runs and have had long productive careers. 

c) AD was a dominant player even the year we got him.  When healthy he was still dominant. However, we forget that he was on the IR. We also forget how evasive Nico was when asked if AD cleared the Injury Report. I am 100% convinced he failed it, but Nico still went ahead with the trade. Then he was pushed to play before he fully recovered and hurt himself against the Rockets.  He was still hurting later in the year and the Mavs still pushed him for the play in games and he got hurt again against Memphis.  I felt bad for him both those times. In a normal situation he probably shouldn't have played the year they traded him for Luka until he was fully healthy.

d) I also remember how he was the first one off the bench when Coop would get some dunk. He seemed like a terrific teammate always encouraging other players.  

i didn't agree with the Mavs trading him, but I could see the rationale of them not wanting to extend him. I also felt that once we got Flagg, AD, with his injuries, seemed slower and not suited to playing a fast paced style that best suited Flagg's game.  However, I don't look at his tenure here like I do with someone like Rondo.  AD hurt himself not once but twice by suiting up when he should have been resting. He was a great teammate as well.  I wish nothing but the best for him.

[windjc]

As they say availability is the biggest ability.  However, I wouldn't go as far as saying that skill is not important.

When Curry kept getting hurt early in his career, the Warriors were patient because they knew the skill level.  Embiid same way with his team. Old timers like me will also remember Ilgauskas who came back from recurring leg injuries to have a solid career.  In his case too, the skill level was high.

With Lively, his skill levels are directly tied to his incredible athletic ability.  If there is a diminishment in that, I don't know how good of a NBA player he is really.  When such a player has recurring injuries, I am not at all having any hope from him.  Even if he comes back, you are always on pins and needles with such a player because you don't know when he will be out for a long while again.  How can you go forward as a GM when you are always unsure about the availability of a player? 

It is sad, because he seems like a great guy and extremely hard working as well.

Doesn't seem like you are cut out as Gm material then

BTW, you just listed 3 players that returned from injury. But somehow Lively can't? Ok my man.

[hakeemfaan]

Doesn't seem like you are cut out as Gm material then

BTW, you just listed 3 players that returned from injury. But somehow Lively can't? Ok my man.

Let me know which team you are the GM of  

Did you read carefully or just skipped the part about those players who came back having skill levels that could sustain them even if their athleticism was slightly diminished?  

Can anyone here say the same for Lively? In his case his incredible athleticism is the skill. That was the point.

[windjc]

Let me know which team you are the GM of  

Did you read carefully or just skipped the part about those players who came back having skill levels that could sustain them even if their athleticism was slightly diminished?  

Can anyone here say the same for Lively? In his case his incredible athleticism is the skill. That was the point.

I think Lively has plenty of skill besides athleticism.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think Lively has plenty of skill besides athleticism.

I always thought his two greatest basketball resources were his BBIQ (ability to learn and adjust extremely quickly, for example) and his length. I never even thought of his running and jumping ability. I don’t think he got hit in the head or lost parts of his limbs, so I’d presume he’d return to be still rather good at basketball.

[hakeemfaan]

I always thought his two greatest basketball resources were his BBIQ (ability to learn and adjust extremely quickly, for example) and his length. I never even thought of his running and jumping ability. I don’t think he got hit in the head or lost parts of his limbs, so I’d presume he’d return to be still rather good at basketball.

All players who make it to the NBA and shine process things a bit faster and better than their peers who might have the same athleticism or even heights. I agree. Plus work ethic is also in Lively’s favor. 

However are you telling me you looked at Lively and didn’t think that what made him such a solid player is his foot speed to switch on the perimeter or jump and block or grab offensive boards?  Even retired players can process things fast as you can see when they become analysts. That is not a substitute for athleticism which is why they retired in the first place. 

Lively is not a bruiser. He is not a great blockout defensive rebounder. His offensive game other than lobs is limited. 

I like him as a person. I just don’t see how he will hold up when there are questions about his leg. If he stays a Mav, of course I hope I am wrong.

[F Gump]

I always thought his two greatest basketball resources were his BBIQ (ability to learn and adjust extremely quickly, for example) and his length. I never even thought of his running and jumping ability. I don’t think he got hit in the head or lost parts of his limbs, so I’d presume he’d return to be still rather good at basketball.

I've always thought of Lively as a "healthy or not" question mark that too rarely is in the "healthy" category.

But the question of damage to what he can PHYSICALLY do is an interesting one. 

And I wouldn't be so quick to render it an irrelevancy. You say all he needs is his mind and his height/length, but if he becomes slow up and down the court, and can't jump to be a shot-altering factor, doesn't that take away so much of his game that he's not really that useful anymore? Seems that way to me.

[windjc]

I've always thought of Lively as a "healthy or not" question mark that too rarely is in the "healthy" category.

But the question of damage to what he can PHYSICALLY do is an interesting one. 

And I wouldn't be so quick to render it an irrelevancy. You say all he needs is his mind and his height/length, but if he becomes slow up and down the court, and can't jump to be a shot-altering factor, doesn't that take away so much of his game that he's not really that useful anymore? Seems that way to me.

Smitty see ^^^^^ exhibit C.

[windjc]

I've always thought of Lively as a "healthy or not" question mark that too rarely is in the "healthy" category.

But the question of damage to what he can PHYSICALLY do is an interesting one. 

And I wouldn't be so quick to render it an irrelevancy. You say all he needs is his mind and his height/length, but if he becomes slow up and down the court, and can't jump to be a shot-altering factor, doesn't that take away so much of his game that he's not really that useful anymore? Seems that way to me.

So what you are saying is if a player can't return from an injury without being significantly diminished then that renders them significantly diminished? Thanks for the clarity.

However, Lively is 23. He is fine.

[Scott41theMavs]

I've always thought of Lively as a "healthy or not" question mark that too rarely is in the "healthy" category.

But the question of damage to what he can PHYSICALLY do is an interesting one. 

And I wouldn't be so quick to render it an irrelevancy. You say all he needs is his mind and his height/length, but if he becomes slow up and down the court, and can't jump to be a shot-altering factor, doesn't that take away so much of his game that he's not really that useful anymore? Seems that way to me.

I was exaggerating. 

Of course he would have to have not lost a ton of athleticism. I still dispute that the running, jumping and lateral quickness aren’t as important as other things that make him a great player. If he comes back looking like Gheorghe Muresan, then well, yeah, we’re going to hope they didn’t extend his contract. I’m pretty confident that whatever issues there are aren’t going to reach those levels of calamity.

[FireNicoHarrison]

I don't think AD had fault, not even himself would have made that trade.

I repeat, with AR in the package at least would be had some sense.

Add him to our bigs pull out the only floor general in the roster is just stupid.
And i don't think Harrison is so stupid. But we are OT.

About Davis i just wrote my personal issues on him.

Ok he is dominant as hell but career spoken for him... Just 1 ring and around LeBron James in the bubble year.

He is limited despite his great skills, i don't care he was a guard etc etc

He has to play C to be most efficient on the court, don't take 3s or midrange Js because are low % shoots for him.
I don't think his past playing guard is the problem, he is lazy and plus he knows very well that his body is broken to play C.
He doesn't sustain a full season at the 5.

Don't forget that he was 20lb overweight at the start of last season.

Washington (with another overrated player as Young) is the perfect place for him.

I wish all the best to him but far away from Dallas. Thanks.

[hakeemfaan]

I was exaggerating. 

Of course he would have to have not lost a ton of athleticism. I still dispute that the running, jumping and lateral quickness aren’t as important as other things that make him a great player. If he comes back looking like Gheorghe Muresan, then well, yeah, we’re going to hope they didn’t extend his contract. I’m pretty confident that whatever issues there are aren’t going to reach those levels of calamity.

You still didn't answer what makes him a great player if he loses some of his athleticism. I mentioned his deficiencies as a player.  There is a big difference between what Lively was before and Muresan.  No one is saying he will come back as a Muresan (at least one hopes not). 

You mentioned processing speed and basketball IQ, which I conceded that players who can shine in the NBA (which he certainly did when he was healthy) definitely have.  Someone like Kai Jones didn't make it despite insane athleticism due to that. However, no concessions from you that even superstar players suddenly lose it when they lose a step?  Many veterans have said that there is no gradual decline.  They feel it immediately. Did they all lose their processing speed and IQ? No, but the loss in a step did affect their games. At least the ability to shoot or pass the ball doesn't rely on supreme athletic ability and can allow them to slow down their eventual retirement or mask some of that athletic loss. How will Lively mask that?

Why is there so much optimism that a stress fracture and repeated surgeries are not a big deal for a 7 fter whose game is heavily reliant on his athleticism? Is his processing speed and bbiq going to make up for any drop in his athleticism or shield his body from being injury prone?

[windjc]

You still didn't answer what makes him a great player if he loses some of his athleticism. I mentioned his deficiencies as a player.  There is a big difference between what Lively was before and Muresan.  No one is saying he will come back as a Muresan (at least one hopes not). 

You mentioned processing speed and basketball IQ, which I conceded that players who can shine in the NBA (which he certainly did when he was healthy) definitely have.  Someone like Kai Jones didn't make it despite insane athleticism due to that. However, no concessions from you that even superstar players suddenly lose it when they lose a step?  Many veterans have said that there is no gradual decline.  They feel it immediately. Did they all lose their processing speed and IQ? No, but the loss in a step did affect their games. At least the ability to shoot or pass the ball doesn't rely on supreme athletic ability and can allow them to slow down their eventual retirement or mask some of that athletic loss. How will Lively mask that?

Why is there so much optimism that a stress fracture and repeated surgeries are not a big deal for a 7 fter whose game is heavily reliant on his athleticism? Is his processing speed and bbiq going to make up for any drop in his athleticism or shield his body from being injury prone?

Because he has still been growing. The last injury was misdiagnosed. Otherwise he would be playing alreadyz

Plus 16-24 year olds have remarkable healing capacity. 

This is not a joint or ligament issue. It’s a bone. Bones heal and you move on. 

Also he isn’t some crazy explosive athlete. He is a decently agile 7’ 3” kid who gets things done above the rim.