MAVS NEWS:

[KillerLeft]

He is not going to be the starting center right away.  He said he sees himself more as a 4.  Yall are a little hyped because it's draft season and he's the shiny new toy.  Right now, he's probably like a 12 minutes at the 4 and 12 minutes at the 5 type player.

If you believe that kid has a chance of success at the four next to Gafford playing the five, then you and I don’t see the game as similarly as I previously believed. With a different center, maybe.

[Scott41theMavs]

I’m in total lock step with your first paragraph. I just brought up Gafford as a specific because it related to the conversation about the center position.

I agree with your second paragraph to an extent. I’m not desperate to dump anyone, including Gafford. On the other hand, some of them are in the way of younger players making progress, and I also don’t think that time is going to make better deals magically appear. What I am a little desperate to do is to freaking get on with things and stop living in this fantasy that this is still the team that went to the finals. Those support players are never going to look as good here as they did that year. That ship sailed with the Luka trade.

What I think you’re saying in general (don’t want to misrepresent you) is that Gaff and PJ’s trade value is going to go down the longer teams see them play without Luka. I would argue that their value could go up a bit over team as the money remaining on their contracts decreases.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Kyrie, PJ, and Gafford are all coming off lost seasons. Trading any of them now just seems like an obviously bad idea.

Maybe psychologically it makes one feel like you're further along in the rebuild. But not getting squat for any of them isn't really furthering the rebuild. Some people wanted to trade Kyrie for Isiah Stewart and Ron Holland. Stewart went for a few 2nd rd picks. But at least we wouldve had Kyrie off the roster. Whew. Now it's the same with Gafford.

[KillerLeft]

Kyrie, PJ, and Gafford are all coming off lost seasons. Trading any of them now just seems like an obviously bad idea.  Maybe psychologically it makes one feel like you're further along in the rebuild.  But not getting squat for any of them isn't really furthering the rebuild.

OK, so your prediction is that none of those three get moved this summer?

We’ll see!

[Scott41theMavs]

Kyrie, PJ, and Gafford are all coming off lost seasons. Trading any of them now just seems like an obviously bad idea.

I can see that blanket argument. Gaff and PJ might look better on a May-coached team that is trying to win. However, I’m of the belief that the Mavs will struggle to field a winning team if either Gafford or Washington hasn’t been traded in spite of how low their value is right now. In spite of their depressed worth, they’re a big part of what we have in order to get better.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

If you're not getting any kind of return for them, what's the point of trading them?

I'd rather win 36 games and try for the 10 seed  than win 26 games again and get some 2nd rd picks and spare pieces back for these guys.

[KillerLeft]

What I think you’re saying in general (don’t want to misrepresent you) is that Gaff and PJ’s trade value is going to go down the longer teams see them play without Luka. I would argue that their value could go up a bit over team as the money remaining on their contracts decreases.

I mean, that’s kind of it, but it’s bigger than that. I just don’t think it’s productive to view the players on your roster as appreciating or depreciating assets in a vacuum.

There’s definitely a sweet spot, and no one way of thinking is completely correct, But I think the way is to have a plan, decide who on the roster fits into the plan and who doesn’t and then to act accordingly. What I’m not in favor of is keeping people around who don’t fit into my plan just because I’m not sure what I could get for them.

[Scott41theMavs]

If you're not getting any kind of return for them, what's the point of trading them?

I'd rather win 36 games and try for the 10 seed  than win 26 games again and get some 2nd rd picks and spare pieces back for these guys.

They still have some value. They could be traded for someone who is slightly overpaid but has the serviceable creational ability the Mavs need right now.

[cow]

This news doesn't really change my temperature on Lively for the better or worse.

The tipping point was and is still is about whether he can he put this injury behind him and prove he can stay on the court before a decision must be made on his future contract. Learning that his current rehab might or might not be complete in time for the beginning of this season really doesn't move the needle. For me, it's still about what happens after the next time he comes back, whenever that is.

Personally, I hope they're actually careful with the kid this time around, because they sure weren't last time.

Let's say he plays 70 games at a near all-star level this season, I think I'd be even more terrified of signing him to big money on a long term deal.  These aren't NFL contracts after all and a healthy season for Lively would be the outlier.

[KillerLeft]

I'd rather win 36 games and try for the 10 seed  than win 26 games again and get some 2nd rd picks and spare pieces back for these guys.

That's fair and understandable. 

Personally, I don't expect there would be much of a difference between those two scenarios, entertainment wise, when it comes to the on court product (which is what I take as your meaning based on past conversations). What I MIGHT find more entertaining is a little sprinkle of hope, no matter how unlikely realized, that would come from guys like De Larrea, just as an example. Look how talked about Christie has been around here. Why? Because he's not in his 30's. For me, the most exciting way forward is to snag as much potential as you can. 

And, they don't HAVE to be super young players, either. But, they have to fit with Flagg. 

And, I admit, May might have a vision for how some of these guys can fit that I don't see yet, so I'm willing to give it all a chance. I'm just saying that 36 wins vs. 26 wins does next to nothing for me, personally.

[KillerLeft]

Let's say he plays 70 games at a near all-star level this season, I think I'd be even more terrified of signing him to big money on a long term deal.  These aren't NFL contracts after all and a healthy season for Lively would be the outlier.

Sure, and that's a conversation we should have if/when that happens.

[cow]

Sure, and that's a conversation we should have if/when that happens.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't enough runway on his current contract to change the perception, at least for me.  He either gets hurt again and cements being injury prone or he stays healthy for the first time and your left wondering if that's the outlier.  It would be hard to imagine that a healthy season would put his injury concerns to rest for anyone.

[KillerLeft]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't enough runway on his current contract to change the perception, at least for me.  He either gets hurt again and cements being injury prone or he stays healthy for the first time and your left wondering if that's the outlier.  It would be hard to imagine that a healthy season would put his injury concerns to rest for anyone.

No, I got that, loud and clear. 

The pont I'm trying to make is there's almost nothing to be gained by giving up now, but even if your counsel would STILL be to give up THEN, after those 70 healthy games, I'd think the realm of positive possibilities might've grown quite a bit. There would be a lot more info by then, including: has Johnson really looked as good as we here hope now?

[Scott41theMavs]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't enough runway on his current contract to change the perception, at least for me.  He either gets hurt again and cements being injury prone or he stays healthy for the first time and your left wondering if that's the outlier.  It would be hard to imagine that a healthy season would put his injury concerns to rest for anyone.

If those last two words are correct, then the Mavs should be able to retain him on a value contract as a roster luxury.

[Winter]

I think the fans concerns are kind of irrelevant here.

He needs to find out if he can play. The FO and medical staff needs to see it as well. Full stop. 

We can't really project value until we know that.

[cow]

No, I got that, loud and clear. 

The pont I'm trying to make is there's almost nothing to be gained by giving up now, but even if your counsel would STILL be to give up THEN, after those 70 healthy games, I'd think the realm of positive possibilities might've grown quite a bit. There would be a lot more info by then, including: has Johnson really looked as good as we here hope now?

I'm not of the camp that would encourage trading him immediately as I just don't think you'd get value back. Sure if you blow me away with an offer, but I don't think that's realistic. To state the obvious, the more and better he plays, the better his value is, but nothing will change my perception of his health before he's due for a new contract. Maybe the perception of big men and foot injuries has changed, but his game relies a lot on his athleticism so...

Luckily based on what this iteration of MBT has done so far, it appears we are in no rush. Something a lot of us have been bemoaning since the terrible KP acquisition.

If those last two words are correct, then the Mavs should be able to retain him on a value contract as a roster luxury.

Maybe.  Depending on how the season shakes out, he could lose his starting spot and look for larger opportunities with other teams.

[Moviemavguy]

Rez is a 5 and Cooper is a 4. Let's not overcomplicate this. They'll play different positions with different lineups, but they'll be at their best there.

[Smitty]

Rez is a 5 and Cooper is a 4.  Let's not overcomplicate this.  They'll play different positions with different lineups, but they'll be at their best there.

But what does that even mean? Are you saying that’s their position on the offensive end or defensively? What about the 1,000 switches throughout the game? Who’s guarding who then? Can a “4” run the offense like Tatum?

I guess I’ll never understand this fixation on position labels when literally every person in the NBA says it’s positionless basketball.

[Mavs2021]

This news doesn't really change my temperature on Lively for the better or worse.

The tipping point was and is still is about whether he can he put this injury behind him and prove he can stay on the court before a decision must be made on his future contract. Learning that his current rehab might or might not be complete in time for the beginning of this season really doesn't move the needle. For me, it's still about what happens after the next time he comes back, whenever that is.

Personally, I hope they're actually careful with the kid this time around, because they sure weren't last time.

...and they can take their time with Lively, cause they already know, that they´ll give him an extension. If what is reported about this whole situation is remotely true, he can probably successfully sue the Mavs for loss of future earnings due to gross negligence. There will be a number at which Rich Paul, the NBAPA, Lively and Mavs will be comfortable with to avoid this getting really ugly.

[Scott41theMavs]

...and they can take their time with Lively, cause they already know, that they´ll give him an extension. If what is reported about this whole situation is remotely true, he can probably successfully sue the Mavs for loss of future earnings due to gross negligence. There will be a number at which Rich Paul, the NBAPA, Lively and Mavs will be comfortable with to avoid this getting really ugly.

Had not considered that angle. Wow. 

Get a decent medical staff!!!