MAVS NEWS:

[Smitty]

Agree with all of this completely. I’d argue that Lively’s inability to stay on the floor is not talked about enough. I can’t remember which poster it is that likes to talk in TOTAL minutes for the season. But it’s always been what I think of when I look at Lively. If he’s a 18-22 mpg guy for 40-50 games a year. That’s not a lot of impact throughout the season.

He needs to stay healthy. For his sake and the Mavs.

Sigh

[Jmaciscool]

I have been thinking about this like it is the zapruder film.  Did Nico make a public comment after the Kidd extension?  They weren’t pictured together this summer right?   They did join Flagg in a press conference.   Kidd plays the political game well, but I do wonder if something is there.  Kidd comparing this to the babe Ruth trade and saying the fans have a right to voice their opinion is right, but I am just wondering if their is a power play going on.

As much as I want Nico gone, I don’t think a Kidd with more power is a much better alternative.

Not sure tbh. The Locked On guys implied that there was definitely some stuff behind the scenes that made them pretty confident that Nico/Kidd aren't on the same page, but I don't think they went into the specifics.

I could see a world where Kidd was not happy with the Luka trade but went along with it at the time because he didn't have much choice. Then over the summer the Knicks came calling and now Kidd has a shiny new extension. No one came calling for Nico (not surprisingly) and he did not get a new extension like Kidd, so maybe Kidd is flexing a bit now since he's in a safer position relatively speaking.

But that's just speculation on my part, who knows what's really going on since most of what comes out of the Mavs these days is silence or delusions.

[mvossman]

We all thought Kidd was an idiot for starting Flagg at PG but did anyone else see what happened when they started DLo ?

It might be the case that our 18 year old rookie forward is, in fact, the best point guard on this roster.

Not sure if you noticed but DLo did some wild sh&t last night and the camera picked up Kidd saying something similar to "what the F" and immediately subbed in Naji to play point. Flagg initiated the offense in crunch time.

This is a bad team and AD isn't going to make it better.

Think: AD had 27 pts, 13 boards, 2 steals and 2 blocks while PJ pitched in an efficient 18 pts while Flagg managed another 18. That's probably ideal contribution from their top three players -- and they STILL lost by 10 to the Wizards who are now 1-7.

Its unfortunate that Dlo had a bad game in his first start, but the numbers (and eye test) still scream that the offense is better with a PG (and specifically Dlo) on the floor.  He is going to do dumb shit because that is his nature (part of the reason he was so cheap) but if he continues to shoot like he did last season (as opposed to most of his career) its going to be a long half a season.

[Jmaciscool]

Its unfortunate that Dlo had a bad game in his first start, but the numbers (and eye test) still scream that the offense is better with a PG (and specifically Dlo) on the floor.  He is going to do dumb shit because that is his nature (part of the reason he was so cheap) but if he continues to shoot like he did last season (as opposed to most of his career) its going to be a long half a season.

Also don't think that it's a coincidence that Flagg had one of his better games when playing with a PG.

[F Gump]

There's no question that all of the Mavs World Experience these days makes no sense. The Luka trade really made no sense. Nor did the summer choices. Nor did the Kidd extension (in September[!!] long after the roster was set and the Knicks were turned away). Nor does the offense or defense. Nor does the rotation look right, after seeing these combos play together. Nor do the in-game adjustments.

All of THAT when considered together is what makes me think they may have ALREADY decided to bail on the season as a whole. Because I can't think of anything else that really makes sense.

I gotta keep in mind that Kidd WILL do the tank thing, and do it well, and you will have a hard time recognizing it for what it is, because we have seen it twice. I also know that a season-long losing streak can mess with a coach's reputation, which may explain the oddly timed extension he was given (to offer him massive financial security to get him to "take one for the team" in the way he coaches). To me thats a far more feasible explanation than the idea that Kidd is suddenly clueless about how to win at basketball, or can't see what is working and what isn't, as they play. To me the extension makes more sense as a reason that Kidd IS willing to play along with Nico/D than the idea he is suddenly opting to lose for his own personal agenda.

[cow]

All of THAT when considered together is what makes me think they may have ALREADY decided to bail on the season as a whole. Because I can't think of anything else that really makes sense.

There is one other thing that makes sense and while your line of thinking wouldn't be outlandish for most organizations, I think it gives Nico way too much credit.

[Smitty]

So now the theory is that Kidd is sabotaging the season and on team tank. Doing things to win a power struggle with the GM. It couldn’t be that this team is bad, like any team would be without their 2 all-stars and best Big man. The offense is bad… no %#*^. It’s missing two 25+ ppg scorers. The best offensive player is career 13 ppg PJ Washington. We all praised the new assistant hires, especially the OC. We were told that it would look more like a Kings/Sabonis style offense with Davis/Lively as the hub. Well, no Davis. No Lively.. We beg for PG play early on and the best option is shooting 36% from the field. Kidd also told Klay to buy in to the tank plan, so that the organization can get a better pick for when he’s long gone. That explains his abysmal play.

This team is built with injury prone players. That is the problem. Lack of top end talent being available. That’s it. No conspiracy, no power plays. Sure, there are probably deeper flaws, as we thought the depth of this team was a strong point, but depth is just that. Russell, Klay, and Max are not meant to be the leaders of the team, they are role players for a reason.


I think I need a break from Mavs forums.

[F Gump]

So now the theory is that Kidd is sabotaging the season and on team tank. Doing things to win a power struggle with the GM. It couldn’t be that this team is bad, like any team would be without their 2 all-stars and best Big man. The offense is bad… no %#*^. It’s missing two 25+ ppg scorers. 

I agree, your answer is a VERY possible answer (bad roster) and others think the same. I'm not saying it's definitely a tank, just raising the possibility. 

OTOH ...

To me, bad roster does not satisfy me in answering why the lineups, rotations, and adjustments have been so weirdly bad. Sometimes clueless. There's this repetitive thought that it's almost like the coaches WANT them to lose, when we see this or that. No way you haven't thought that too, at multiple points this season. 

Yes it could be JUST bad play or choices, and all unintended. Certainly. 

But it was already happening BEFORE the run of in-season injuries. So I dont see injuries as a reliable explanation for what we are seeing. (And NBA history tells us LOUDLY that "injuries" can be a significant part of the methodology for a team that wants to tank.) So I have to open my mind to the possibility that this is a gap year, as they call it, to try to get LONG TERM running mate for CF.

One other thing to consider. When I look at what is best for the Mavs, if they are NOT going to be elite this year, isn't another top pick their best way to roster building for now? Try to get a creator to pair with CF, and then use THAT as the foundation to build around.

This is the LAST year they can tank for that 2nd piece. You say they are too stupid to see that -- but who knows, maybe they aren't.

My mind is not made up, by a long shot. But I am already wondering seriously.

[KillerLeft]

I think I need a break from Mavs forums.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I agree, your answer is a VERY possible answer (bad roster) and others think the same. I'm not saying it's definitely a tank, just raising the possibility. 

OTOH ...

 

I dont see injuries as a reliable explanation for what we are seeing. (And NBA history tells us LOUDLY that "injuries" can be a significant part of the methodology for a team that wants to tank.) So I have to open my mind to the possibility that this is a gap year, as they call it, to try to get LONG TERM running mate for CF.
 

It is an interesting theory.  The hallmark of a good tank at this point in the season is plausible deniability.  The fact that there are people on all sides of this means so-far, so-good if that is indeed the plan.  There comes a point when you are so far behind everyone else that you don't have to keep pretending.

So here are my questions (if indeed this is a tank)...

Is Kidd going rogue or is everyone in on this?  

Will this be another 10th/11th type tank as we've seen twice now where they keep their options open regarding a playoff run.  Or, will they fully commit and go for a top 3 pick?

How do they do this without killing AD's trade value?

Would the gap year theory mean we are 1. Rebuilding around the two kids (plus Lively and maybe Christie), or 2.  Still all-in with Nico's vision in 26/27 (which is mainly AD/Kyrie as your stars).  I don't think a tank necessarily means we plan to jettison AD...unfortunately.

Do we sell off some pieces at the TDL to teams that are in need of some of what we have?  I can see selling off some depth in either scenario above...especially if it helps the financial situation heading into the 26 and 27 seasons.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Wait

So the same people that thought we'd be perfectly fine with DLo being the best playmaker on the roster and Flagg playing guard now think we are purposely tanking? LOL

[Smitty]

@Gump and @Dan

I respect both of your opinions, but I just think you're going down a path that has zero credibility or reason at this point. The identity of this team is/was supposed to be double Bigs that dominate inside, running a Princeton style motion offense through one of the Bigs in the half court, and being a team that runs in transition with having multiple "capable" ball handlers on the floor to do so, rather than one heliocentric "PG".

I agree with everyone here that the first two games made it very obvious that the team needed a real "PG" on the court at all times. But Kidd told us exactly what he was going to do with Flagg, so it's hardly a surprise that we see him on ball that much to start the year.

In game 3, I made a post about how well Kidd and Co. adjusted to the lineup data and had excellent rotations and minutes distribution. Lively is then out with a knee injury. 

In Game 4 he did what he could against the defending Champs in a b2b. Davis has to play 38 minutes at the 5 because Lively and Gafford are both out, after playing 35 minutes the night before. He's then hurt in Game 5, just 7 minutes into the game.

Game 6 Gafford makes his season debut, but on a minute's restriction, and to this day still doesn't look 100%.


I just see no evidence that the coaching staff is doing anything to deliberately lose winnable games. The team has no identity. They have no chemistry. They have no Alpha. They have below average shooters. Their best player, Davis, came into the season out of shape. The roster is absolutely flawed; that's not the argument. I've said all summer that the double Big thing is not ideal, but even then, they don't even know how that looks. Davis and Lively have played 29 minutes together. Davis and Gafford 0. We're 8 games into a season that is already showing us why it's a bad idea to build around injury prone players.

Do I think Kidd will go the "tank" route if Davis, Lively, Kyrie, Gafford remain on the injury report more than the court? Of course. I just don't think that's what's happening at the moment.

[vfromlmf]

Once Kyrie went down with the ACL injury, the smartest move for this season became pretty clear. Even if he does return later on, this year is going to be a tune-up year. Kyrie is unbelievable in so many ways, but the first season back from an ACL injury always comes with inconsistency, reduced explosiveness at times, and a lot of caution. I get the optimism that comes with being a fan, but the realistic view has to factor in recovery timelines.

You also have to consider what's happening in OKC and San Antonio. There was talk that Dallas moved Luka partly because the window to realistically chase a title was within the next 2–3 years—BEFORE OKC and SA take over the West with their stockpile of young generational talent and draft capital. OKC winning a title last year and Wemby elevating himself to top-5 player territory only makes the challenge more difficult. Given that context, the best path forward for Dallas is to lean into the rebuild this season, secure more lottery talent, and then push all-in next year when both AD and Kyrie are fully healthy and back to form.

In an ideal situation, the Mavs lose 60 games and land a top 3 pick--and the good news is they seem to be on track.

[mvossman]

@Gump and @Dan

I respect both of your opinions, but I just think you're going down a path that has zero credibility or reason at this point. The identity of this team is/was supposed to be double Bigs that dominate inside, running a Princeton style motion offense through one of the Bigs in the half court, and being a team that runs in transition with having multiple "capable" ball handlers on the floor to do so, rather than one heliocentric "PG".

I agree with everyone here that the first two games made it very obvious that the team needed a real "PG" on the court at all times. But Kidd told us exactly what he was going to do with Flagg, so it's hardly a surprise that we see him on ball that much to start the year.

In game 3, I made a post about how well Kidd and Co. adjusted to the lineup data and had excellent rotations and minutes distribution. Lively is then out with a knee injury. 

In Game 4 he did what he could against the defending Champs in a b2b. Davis has to play 38 minutes at the 5 because Lively and Gafford are both out, after playing 35 minutes the night before. He's then hurt in Game 5, just 7 minutes into the game.

Game 6 Gafford makes his season debut, but on a minute's restriction, and to this day still doesn't look 100%.


I just see no evidence that the coaching staff is doing anything to deliberately lose winnable games. The team has no identity. They have no chemistry. They have no Alpha. They have below average shooters. Their best player, Davis, came into the season out of shape. The roster is absolutely flawed; that's not the argument. I've said all summer that the double Big thing is not ideal, but even then, they don't even know how that looks. Davis and Lively have played 29 minutes together. Davis and Gafford 0. We're 8 games into a season that is already showing us why it's a bad idea to build around injury prone players.

Do I think Kidd will go the "tank" route if Davis, Lively, Kyrie, Gafford remain on the injury report more than the court? Of course. I just don't think that's what's happening at the moment.

Completely agree.  We knew going into this season that this team was going to struggle with creation, shooting and injuries.  I feel like Kidd blew the Wizards game by not having a PG on the court for much of the game, and it was demoralizing to lose at home to NO even with all of the injuries, but otherwise this season is playing out as expected.  I thought it was general consensus that this is probably a lottery team if AD reverts to "street clothes" this season.

[Dirknows]

Completely agree.  We knew going into this season that this team was going to struggle with creation, shooting and injuries.  I feel like Kidd blew the Wizards game by not having a PG on the court for much of the game, and it was demoralizing to lose at home to NO even with all of the injuries, but otherwise this season is playing out as expected.  I thought it was general consensus that this is probably a lottery team if AD reverts to "street clothes" this season.

Even with AD this looks like a play in team that doesn’t make the playoffs.

[Mavs2021]

They had a super soft home schedule too. Absolute worst case they should be 4-4.

[KillerLeft]

They had a super soft home schedule too. Absolute worst case they should be 4-4.

That's the worst part, and what I was worried about way back when I had hope, even. There's a steep price to be paid when you start the season with 5 home games. You'd better win 4 of them, if you're planning to contend.

[SleepingHero]

They had a super soft home schedule too. Absolute worst case they should be 4-4.

Its funny that historically teams with long homestands don't usually start off super strong, but given their schedule they should be exactly where you said.


I can't even say "when they are healthy" because this team wont ever truly be healthy. When one gets healthy another will go down.

[mvossman]

Even with AD this looks like a play in team that doesn’t make the playoffs.

It does without Kyrie.  The hope was that AD could stay mostly healthy the first half of the season and they tread water until Kyrie gets back.  I am already losing hope regarding AD health.  Given his history, Nico's medical staff and the fact that Kidd will play him 40 minutes a game when he is available, I guess there was probably never much chance.

[Dirknows]

It does without Kyrie.  The hope was that AD could stay mostly healthy the first half of the season and they tread water until Kyrie gets back.  I am already losing hope regarding AD health.  Given his history, Nico's medical staff and the fact that Kidd will play him 40 minutes a game when he is available, I guess there was probably never much chance.

You dont get the nickname “Street Clothes” or “Day to Dayvis” for nothing.