Cooper Flagg Highlights Thread

[numnuts23]

His agenda in making the video was to push back against the nonstop hype with some realistic analysis. My agenda is a bit different: I'm ok with the mistakes - any kid is going to have stuff to learn when getting drafted, and Flagg's best attributes seem to be his ability to absorb the game and his competitive drive. Those things usually end up in greatness. But, his defensive reputation comes from being low man, where he can play devastating help side defense...just like AD...just like Lively...to a certain extent, just like PJW. 

I really, really don't think you can play three of those guys together on defense, let alone all four.

He used only tournament clips (saying he wanted to see him vs the best)....Flagg was coming off a pretty significant ankle injury.  Not sure it's fair to just use that for his analysis.

[Chicagojk]

I am not firm yet and want to see him play in the NBA. I imagine we will see a lot of experimentation next year....especially if they keep this weird fitting team mostly together.

For me, I think it boils down to offense and defense. I have strong hopes that in time (maybe sooner than later) Cooper can be your #2 creator when on the floor. If so, this opens up so many more things. Heck maybe he coudl be your 1B creator, but I think that will need more time.

On defense, I think he is going to be best guarding 3's and 4's. Use his length to play the passing lanes and also be a guy who can protect the rim as a secondary rim protector. I think having chase around the elite guards is going to be a tough ask.

We will see though. I want to go into next year with an open mind. I am not expecting perfect, but I am sure Kidd will look to expand his comfort zones from the start.

[KillerLeft]

I'll take that bet. 

To me this video is an EXTREME exaggeration of the negative, examining every possession to cherry-pick the details for anything less than perfection (as if any player can play perfect iso defense on every possession against good offensive players). We'll see, but I bet we will be more than happy with Flagg's chops on defense as a Mav.

I agree with your analysis of HIS agenda for making the video, but it doesn’t seem like you’re understanding my motivation for posting it.

I like to endeavor to understand what happens on the court in basketball. I know that’s not everyone’s favorite part of the game or this community, but it’s the part that jazzes me the most. I think Flagg is so obviously a 4, and yes, he has some versatility as a switchable defender from that position, which makes him special. But using that versatility as an excuse to play him out of position, in my opinion, risks exposing him in ways that are unnecessary and potentially detrimental to his development.

[F Gump]

I agree with your analysis of HIS agenda for making the video, but it doesn’t seem like you’re understanding my motivation for posting it.

I like to endeavor to understand what happens on the court in basketball. I know that’s not everyone’s favorite part of the game or this community, but it’s the part that jazzes me the most. I think Flagg is so obviously a 4, and yes, he has some versatility as a switchable defender from that position, which makes him special. But using that versatility as an excuse to play him out of position, in my opinion, risks exposing him in ways that are unnecessary and potentially detrimental to his development.

I understand your point ...but I don't think we should really trust what this rando guy says - that's MY point. He is OVER nitpicking by a mile, and - the worst thing in coming to a fair and objective analysis - he further cherrypicks his study to only consider the games in which CF was slowed by severe ankle injuries! Good grief, what scouting drek.

I think you're mostly trying to find reasons to prove 'Why CF cannot be the PG' and to me it makes more sense to consider what's possible, rather than let perfection (or the lack of it) be the enemy of the good.

WAY too much is being made of Flagg's defensive "position." What you play on one end is not necessarily the same matchup position you might occupy on the other end. Then switching is ongoing. All kinds of zones are mixed in as well. The NBA game has become incredibly positionless.

And let's be honest and admit that for the last few years we have had a PG who is about the same size as CF, whose defense at times was almost non-existent, and while we hoped for better, we saw that as acceptable. If Flagg were to be the PG/main creator, his defense on the other end will be worlds better than we've had for many years. That's what I see when I consider the possibility of CF being The Guy. His defense is NOT going to be the obstacle to such a choice at all.

[cow]

I think we are in danger of setting our expectations for Flagg so high that we're on a collision course with disappointment. Here's a pretty detailed breakdown of his defense, including the not often mentioned negatives. He plays defense like a big wing, not a guard...because that's what he is. This guy isn't convinced he'll be a defensive plus as a forward, even. 

https://youtu.be/K8tcfrtOMuo?si=kHKtoJrxRdrX9WRi

He said he's not there today and most of Cooper's weakness can be addressed save for closeout speed which might just be an athletic limitation.  I think that video was good and the main takeaway point is to pump the breaks as Cooper has a long way to go.  But, you know what?  He's 18, of course he has a long way to go.  His mom was fond of saying that if Cooper was the best player in the gym that it was time to find another gym.  That wish is granted.  

I do think expectations for Flagg are too high both nationally and especially with fans.  I always though the same for Luka following Dirk, but Luka's readiness for the NBA was far beyond what almost any top college prospect will have and Luka didn't have the burden of being the savior of a franchise because the previous savior's tenure got cut short, in fact Luka got to play a season with him.  Cooper doesn't have that luxury.  I just hope we all remember how rocky Dirk's career started off and how that turned out and use those memories to give grace to Cooper when he falters.  There are also no sure things.  While I think Cooper has a pretty high floor, you never know how someone will react when they run into a player better than them or what will happen if that occurrence happens often.

[Winter]

For me, the issue will likely be the ball-handling.

We're used to seeing Luka spend a good number of seconds dribbling and staring at his defender. Then Luka would start moving and it would be like someone started a blender. I can't believe the offense is going to look anything like that now, and I'm not sure I necessarily picture it with CF at the point of attack.

I do think though, I could see CF doing a lot or work setting screens, lots of pick-and-roll, and rotating the perimeter just like he did at Duke. Maybe he quarterbacks certain sets and plays an outsized role in running the offense, but I can't see him just dribbling for seconds at a time, just to take measure of his defender the way Luka did.

It's going to be different. It's inevitable. But this playing the 1 or 2 spot may not be as relevant as we think it is with a different style of play.

[F Gump]

For me, the issue will likely be the ball-handling.

We're used to seeing Luka spend a good number of seconds dribbling and staring at his defender. Then Luka would start moving and it would be like someone started a blender. I can't believe the offense is going to look anything like that now, and I'm not sure I necessarily picture it with CF at the point of attack.

I do think though, I could see CF doing a lot or work setting screens, lots of pick-and-roll, and rotating the perimeter just like he did at Duke. Maybe he quarterbacks certain sets and plays an outsized role in running the offense, but I can't see him just dribbling for seconds at a time, just to take measure of his defender the way Luka did.

It's going to be different. It's inevitable. But this playing the 1 or 2 spot may not be as relevant as we think it is with a different style of play.

I agree with this 100%. I think the Mavs expectation is to have the ball moving, and not pounded up the floor or on the perimeter in the halfcourt, with anyone and everyone open to bring it up and initiating the offense. Pushing the pace, trying to attack the basket, get the defense on its heels.

And as you note, that allows for a much different type of player as PG than Luka. (That's part of my thinking that a Flagg/Klay combo at G could be something they might opt for.)

[KillerLeft]

I understand your point ...but I don't think we should really trust what this rando guy says - that's MY point. He is OVER nitpicking by a mile, and - the worst thing in coming to a fair and objective analysis - he further cherrypicks his study to only consider the games in which CF was slowed by severe ankle injuries! Good grief, what scouting drek.

I think you're mostly trying to find reasons to prove 'Why CF cannot be the PG' and to me it makes more sense to consider what's possible, rather than let perfection (or the lack of it) be the enemy of the good.

WAY too much is being made of Flagg's defensive "position." What you play on one end is not necessarily the same matchup position you might occupy on the other end. Then switching is ongoing. All kinds of zones are mixed in as well. The NBA game has become incredibly positionless.

And let's be honest and admit that for the last few years we have had a PG who is about the same size as CF, whose defense at times was almost non-existent, and while we hoped for better, we saw that as acceptable. If Flagg were to be the PG/main creator, his defense on the other end will be worlds better than we've had for many years. That's what I see when I consider the possibility of CF being The Guy. His defense is NOT going to be the obstacle to such a choice at all.

To your paragraph one: I'm not trusting what he says, but what my eyes see. Yes, the examples he used are cherry picked, but he broke down every possession of the tournament to find them, goes out of his way several times to say Flagg IS a good defender with GREAT potential, and admits that he's actively searching for areas in which he could improve. I don't think he's out to prove Flagg can't do ANYTHING, and neither am I. Reacting as if that's the point misses the mark. 

What I'm saying is that there's a role (imo) where Flagg could be generational, and not putting him into that role right away could be a mistake. I'm pretty confident he'll end up there eventually, anyway. And again, with this part I'm talking about DEFENSE, not offense. He IS playing defense like a big in all those clips, basically, and I'm not getting that opinion FROM THE VIDEO. It's an opinion I already had and thought this video (that I randomly came across) might help to illustrate some of what I thought for the group here. That's all. 

To your paragraph two: I was literally the first person in this forum to wonder (in writing) whether or not CF could literally replace Luka in the offense. I don't have a link, but it was like two days after the lottery, and part of me thinks that might be where this is headed. But, that was offensive-related thinking, and even then, I have since come to believe that he's got a ways to go for that to be possible. You disagree, which is fine. Long term, I'm honestly unsure whether or not it makes sense to put the ball in his hands from day 1 (whether he's ready for it or not). I could make a case either way, but I'm pretty sure it will lower the ceiling of this year's team. Whether or not we should care about that is the point of debate, as I see it. 

But, this conversation is about defense, and more specifically, style of defense. The distinction here is important, because it has almost nothing to do with quality of defensive play. Cooper Flagg has flat out not played perimeter defense as a default at any point in his career, and that's so blatantly obvious when you watch him. His training and experience are as a low defender who defends the rim on the help side (like Davis) and can hold up better than most others on switches (like Davis). The thing is, if we're to believe that a lineup of Lively, Davis, Washington and Flagg can work, that's very likely not going to be his job description on that end. Instead, he'll have an entirely new skillset to learn, almost from scratch. This is my concern. I don't even like PJW in that role, and he's significantly more experienced in NBA versatility than Flagg. 

To your paragraph three: I agree, in a sense. He's going to face more switching than ever before now that he's in the NBA, regardless of what position he plays. But, the term "positionless basketball" gets overused and abused to mask less than perfect understanding of what's actually happening out there. Most of the times I've seen that term used, it's by someone who clearly doesn't get where it comes from and why. In reality, the players do still have positions, and those positions have specific responsibilities, and it's still semi-rare and uber valuable to find a player who can play multiple positions at a high level, simply because it's tough to keep track of the various different if/then scenarios that come up in today's ever more organic systems on offense and defense. As an example, a player might be physically able to play both the 4 and the 5, but might struggle to remember that (in their team's system, in certain scenarios) the 4 runs to the rim in transition and the 5 trails the play, hoping to get free above the break for a trailer 3 (this has been a Carlisle staple for years, and it's just one example of the type of thing that can confuse players who are playing different positions). To be clear, the mental part of this doesn't concern me at all with Flagg - I suspect that will be a strength of his, and pretty quickly. I just wonder where he's BEST suited to play in order to achieve dominance as quickly as possible, and wonder if the smart play isn't to put him THERE, regardless of what holes the current roster has. 

To your paragraph 4: Yes, I think Flagg's effort and desire to play defense consistently will make him at least as good as Luka's best moments on defense, and probably better, and probably right away. But, I think with an actual perimeter defender in that spot and Flagg in the back where he's not just comfortable but possibly generational, I think the defense would be much better much sooner. And, shifting back to offense for a second, there was definitely a reason we were able to put up with Luka's terrible defense (let's be honest - this board was in complete denial over that for years). It's because his offense was transcendent, especially his first 3-4 years, before he got too heavy to beat anyone off the dribble. Is Flagg EVER going to beat anyone off the dribble the way young Luka did? Hmmm...I'm not seeing that, personally. 

I could be wrong about any/all of this, but I can guarantee that I've spent hours upon hours carefully considering all angles. I worry that they could potentially be going down the wrong road here (with his early development, of course. Thankfully, they're smart enough to draft him, so nothing they do next year could be too dumb). But then again, I'm just gauging "what they'll do" off of a bunch of message board posts - we have no idea what their actual approach will be. I can't wait to find out!

[KillerLeft]

I agree with this 100%. I think the Mavs expectation is to have the ball moving, and not pounded up the floor or on the perimeter in the halfcourt, with anyone and everyone open to bring it up and initiating the offense. Pushing the pace, trying to attack the basket, get the defense on its heels.

And as you note, that allows for a much different type of player as PG than Luka. (That's part of my thinking that a Flagg/Klay combo at G could be something they might opt for.)

Now see, here we are very closely aligned. I'm ALL ABOARD for your first point. Same, exact page. 

But, it seems like you think not having the varnish dribbled off of the floor by one player might best be accomplished by giving the ball to a player without the skills to even play that way. That's where you lose me. I think having a guy who CAN do much of what Luka can do, but is smart and team oriented enough to know that he's more likely to succeed if the ball moves and everyone touches it and gets into a rhythm is how to get there. That's why Indy was successful with Haliburton, imho. He moved the ball and ran the offense, but still had the skills to adapt to various, unexpected pressure. I believe, personally, that quite a bit of 1-on-1 skill and experience is a requisite stepping stone to playing the position that way.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

This conversation reminds me of when the Cowboys had no #1 WR and the talking point was that not having one guy that got all the targets would help Dak distribute the ball around. That didn't work either. They ended up trading for Amari Cooper.

Brandon Williams might be the only guy on the roster than can dribble the ball up the court while being hounded by a guy like Caruso.

[cow]

This conversation reminds me of when the Cowboys had no #1 WR and the talking point was that not having one guy that got all the targets would help Dak distribute the ball around.  That didn't work either.  They ended up trading for Amari Cooper. 

Brandon Williams might be the only guy on the roster than can dribble the ball up the court while being hounded by a guy like Caruso.

Just an aside, but Dak with Pickens is going to be interesting.  Dak's never been a great or willing contested ball thrower (Dez).

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Just an aside, but Dak with Pickens is going to be interesting.  Dak's never been a great or willing contested ball thrower (Dez).

Yea, he usually needs the WR to create separation in his routes.

But he does throw a good deep ball. Pickens should get a couple of those per game.

[SleepingHero]

@MavsFilmRoom
Cooper Flagg’s dad, Ralph on Mavs fans:

“They are a very passionate fan base, and I think from what we understand and what we've seen on social media, they're ready to fully embrace Cooper

[DallasMaverick]

@MavsFilmRoom
Cooper Flagg’s dad, Ralph on Mavs fans:

“They are a very passionate fan base, and I think from what we understand and what we've seen on social media, they're ready to fully embrace Cooper

Not sure I agree that we're a passionate fan base.

Just look at how quickly we recovered from Luka!

[Winter]

I think I just heard Cooper Flagg was going to be on the Today show tomorrow morning.

[KillerLeft]

I think I just heard Cooper Flagg was going to be on the Today show tomorrow morning.

I don’t understand… If it’s called “the today show,” why is it on tomorrow? Old school TV is so confusing.

[DallasMaverick]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/4557...ks-amazing

[cow]

I don’t understand… If it’s called “the today show,” why is it on tomorrow? Old school TV is so confusing.

[Winter]

Jason Timpf and Sam Vecenie discuss Cooper Flagg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwSVXuvvAaU

Talk about gushing.....

[KillerLeft]

Jason Timpf puts Flagg behind only Wembenyama as a prospect over the last decade.

https://youtu.be/DwSVXuvvAaU?si=Kvr3ojKms1HaNPWm