Game 9: Phoenix Suns (7-1) vs. Dallas Mavericks (5-3) | 6:30pm CST

[Chicagojk]

Mavs fought hard and almost pulled it out. I agree with Kidd and his thoughts.

With that being said, I must admit I am very impressed with the Suns. They have played a lot of close games but won most of them. We will see if that evens out, but they look like a top 4 seed right now.

It is way early. Last year we had posts here that the season was finished and there was no hope. I was not at that stage but I didn’t envision a long run until late in the season. Right now though, they don’t look like a top 4 team. Sort of worrying that they aren’t getting their toes wet to start the season but are relying on big Luka and Kyrie minutes in most games.

[rocky164]

With that being said, I must admit I am very impressed with the Suns.  They have played a lot of close games but won most of them.  We will see if that evens out, but they look like a top 4 seed right 

Suns do indeed look like a top 4 seed.  But the major problem with the Suns is not talent but staying healthy.  Durant and Beal will both be out long stretches this season.  It’s inevitable with their age.  That alone will keep them out of the top 4.  The major goal for the Suns shouldn’t be seeding anyway.  If healthy they’d be a threat to win any playoff series home court advantage or not.  Health for the playoffs has to be their season goal even if it costs them regular season games.

[SleepingHero]

Putting in Edwards over Grimes may have actually cost them the game. Kidd and his inane tinkering


@sixfivelando
Jason Kidd on what Quentin Grimes has to do to play more: “He’s gotta make a shot, he’s gotta just relax. Understand we’re missing layups, we’re just doing stupid stuff right now and that tends to happen during the season so we’re not gonna panic over that, but he’s not a plus.”

[Chicagojk]

Suns do indeed look like a top 4 seed.  But the major problem with the Suns is not talent but staying healthy.  Durant and Beal will both be out long stretches this season.  It’s inevitable with their age.  That alone will keep them out of the top 4.  The major goal for the Suns shouldn’t be seeding anyway.  If healthy they’d be a threat to win any playoff series home court advantage or not.  Health for the playoffs has to be their season goal even if it costs them regular season games.

That is true.  Health is the biggest factor.   Although, I think a run when you are on the road to start each series is very difficult.  Mavs did it last year, but it is just really tough.

[Chicagojk]

It looks like Gafford was pushed last night. He seemed to go down easily and was already well under the basket. Regardless, he needs to rebound better. We did him no favors playing small lineups but he was beat on two big rebounds last night. That ended up being the biggest plays of the game. Iztok had a post this morning how poor of a defensive rebounder Gafford is. I believe this has been stated previously. Very good offensive rebounder but below average defensive rebounder. Just needs to be better.

Anyone else notice, at least three times this year, Luka has been visibly frustrated with Gafford on a rotation. Just something to monitor.

[omahen]

Regarding Din, I said before the season that he was going to get the minutes early but he would need to earn those minutes with good play.  So far he has had some positive games but also negative ones.  Hasn’t hurt us too much but hasn’t been a huge positive.

The issue is no one is really forcing playing time for his minutes though.  It was one of the reasons I was bummed for Exum’s injury.  For most of the year, I wanted to see more of Exum last year, not less.  I think with this current team, he could be more valuable than last year.  Something happened though for Kidd to lose trust in him, so I wanted to see where he fit in this year.  I am fine with EXum not Loki g for his shot often.  He does a lot of other good things.  We will see if he gets a shot when healthy.

It wasn't a problem he wasn't looking for his shot. The problem was he was not shooting when open. He was totally not dangerous for the basket, Mavs played 4 on 5 with him late last season and playoffs.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Putting in Edwards over Grimes may have actually cost them the game. Kidd and his inane tinkering


@sixfivelando
Jason Kidd on what Quentin Grimes has to do to play more: “He’s gotta make a shot, he’s gotta just relax. Understand we’re missing layups, we’re just doing stupid stuff right now and that tends to happen during the season so we’re not gonna panic over that, but he’s not a plus.”

Thought this roster had pretty straight forward roles but Kidd has found a way to mess with some players early on. Does this every season, there’s someone who clearly should be getting minutes but he yanks them around and messes with their head. Grimes hasn’t been shooting well but he knows what he’s doing out there more so than Edwards and he’s not going to get out of a shooting slump from the bench. OMax missed a layup and got benched but we didn’t have any other wings to match KDs size so he could have still been useful throughout the game. Hardy has already been yanked around this season too. It’s a weird thing that Kidd likes to do but he needs to understand it can cost us winnable games. Edwards was -4 in 2 minutes….is that worth whatever message you’re trying to send?

[HoosierDaddyKid]

50 wins not going to cut it.  Great players challenge 60 wins at some point in their career.  Anything less than a number 2 seed is a failure. Kidd is feeling the heat. I have a feeling the new owner will expect more than Cuban did. But Luka just doesn’t seem right.  He’s become more like a stretch 4 than a point guard. It’s a little early in his career to have to transition to a new position because of changes in his body.

He's not playing right because he's playing hurt. That calf, ankle or whatever it is, is becoming very problematic. He was limping and constantly grabbing it. It's amazing he's as productive as he is. This is a problem every year. Everyone talks about Embiid, but he's the same way. He's never 100% healthy.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Mavs fought hard and almost pulled it out.  I agree with Kidd and his thoughts.

With that being said, I must admit I am very impressed with the Suns.  They have played a lot of close games but won most of them.  We will see if that evens out, but they look like a top 4 seed right now.

It is way early.  Last year we had posts here that the season was finished and there was no hope.  I was not at that stage but I didn’t envision a long run until late in the season.  Right now though, they don’t look like a top 4 team.  Sort of worrying that they aren’t getting their toes wet to start the season but are relying on big Luka and Kyrie minutes in most games.

The Suns main improvement is they have a very good coach now in Bud, and they have a capable PG in Jones to handle the ball handling and facilitation to take some of those responsibilities away from KD, Beal and Book. Vogel was a good coach, but Bud has put in a better scheme with more ball movement and quick passing.

[ThisIStheYear]

Mavs should have Bud. They now sit 10th in the West and that’s actually about right. They’re better than all the teams without a pulse but not as good as any team with a pulse. The schedule has been average, not particularly hard. It’s been a crappy start to the season. And they’ve got a lot of losses coming on this road trip unless they find a scheme. The offense is a joke considering the talent level. Rick had a top 2 offense with Luka and THJ as his best players.

[Chicagojk]

Mavs should have Bud. They now sit 10th in the West and that’s actually about right. They’re better than all the teams without a pulse but not as good as any team with a pulse. The schedule has been average, not particularly hard. It’s been a crappy start to the season. And they’ve got a lot of losses coming on this road trip unless they find a scheme. The offense is a joke considering the talent level. Rick had a top 2 offense with Luka and THJ as his best players.

I put the Mavs 1-2 game behind expectations right now with their home games and competition.  I have also not liked a lot with exception of some really good stretches.

I would hesitate to make any conclusions now though.  The season is so young.  An injury or a 7 game win streak totally change perceptions.   The Suns have one loss but they have been in 7-8 clutch games.  They have won everyone besides 1.   If they lose 2 of those, is the narrative different.

Long season.  I want to see certain things and i have really seen them yet, but season is young.

[DallasMaverick]

I put the Mavs 1-2 game behind expectations right now with their home games and competition.  I have also not liked a lot with exception of some really good stretches.

I would hesitate to make any conclusions now though.  The season is so young.  An injury or a 7 game win streak totally change perceptions.   The Suns have one loss but they have been in 7-8 clutch games.  They have won everyone besides 1.   If they lose 2 of those, is the narrative different.

Long season.  I want to see certain things and i have really seen them yet, but season is young.

Hey, dude. This isn’t the board on which to be balanced or cautious or reasoned.

We just do overreactions, despair-to-delight, and quick fixes.

[LukaMVP]

kidd may be a good assistant coach with his defensive expertise but as the head coach of an NBA team that is not supposed to be tanking he's just not competent, a point the bucks proved years ago, and that's why he lost his job in Milwaukee and bud led that same team to championship. swap the coaches and we would have won both Suns games imho.

[BigDirk41]

kidd may be a good assistant coach with his defensive expertise but as the head coach of an NBA team that is not supposed to be tanking he's just not competent, a point the bucks proved years ago, and that's why he lost his job in Milwaukee and bud led that same team to championship. swap the coaches and we would have won both Suns games imho.

Kidd drives me crazy at times, but he's been to the WCF and the finals in 2 of the last 3 years so we have to give him his due as a head coach. I don't like how he gets to the end result, but he finds a way to peak when it matters. I prefer consistency, but he has gotten results.

[Knutsen]

Kidd drives me crazy at times, but he's been to the WCF and the finals in 2 of the last 3 years so we have to give him his due as a head coach. I don't like how he gets to the end result, but he finds a way to peak when it matters. I prefer consistency, but he has gotten results.

For Kidd the regular season is one big training camp to develop players and their roles and the team and its resilience. That’s really annoying when you want to enjoy as many wins as possible and have a good time during the cold and dark months by watching your favorite basketball team, but he just cares about the playoffs. 

And since game one of a series is also a kind of a training game for him he doesn’t care or even prefers if we don‘t have homecourt advantage, because we‘re going to lose it most of the times anyway.

[KillerLeft]

I am no Kidd defender, but it strikes me that many are missing what's right in front of them. Kidd dropped several F bombs in his presser the other day, and sure didn't seem like someone who hadn't just tried to win that Suns game. He sure seemed like he cared about that loss to me.

The guy who doesn't care about early season is Luka, not Kidd. Sure, Kidd is doing some experimenting, but he kind of has to, with injuries, and as a result of three of his guards (two of whom were supposed to be in the rotation) starting the season less than ideally. He's very clearly disappointed with ALL of Grimes, Hardy and Dinwiddie, and we should be, too (so far). But, Luka is the one who started the season not playing defense, taking bad shots and missing them. He's looking better with each game, but the Mavs are 5-4 because they're built around a superstar who isn't super starring. Their two best defenders being out isn't helping, either.

The good news is that there's no need to panic. Luka will get into shape and start playing, eventually. They'll get 1-2 of those guards playing well behind Luka/Kyrie, eventually. Marshall and Thompson are going to continue to figure out how they fit in with this team, and eventually, Lively will come back and be the force we all know he is.

[SleepingHero]

I am no Kidd defender, but it strikes me that many are missing what's right in front of them. Kidd dropped several F bombs in his presser the other day, and sure didn't seem like someone who hadn't just tried to win that Suns game. He sure seemed like he cared about that loss to me.

The guy who doesn't care about early season is Luka, not Kidd. Sure, Kidd is doing some experimenting, but he kind of has to, with injuries, and as a result of three of his guards (two of whom were supposed to be in the rotation) starting the season less than ideally. He's very clearly disappointed with ALL of Grimes, Hardy and Dinwiddie, and we should be, too (so far). But, Luka is the one who started the season not playing defense, taking bad shots and missing them. He's looking better with each game, but the Mavs are 5-4 because they're built around a superstar who isn't super starring. Their two best defenders being out isn't helping, either.

The good news is that there's no need to panic. Luka will get into shape and start playing, eventually. They'll get 1-2 of those guards playing well behind Luka/Kyrie, eventually. Marshall and Thompson are going to continue to figure out how they fit in with this team, and eventually, Lively will come back and be the force we all know he is.

I agree with all of this and I appreciate your voice of reason.

But I can’t rationalize Kidd really wanting to win that Suns game at the same time throwing out Kessler Edward’s for 4 minutes for no reason. 


Either way, there is a serious lack of fire under our guys right now. Gafford especially imo.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I am no Kidd defender, but it strikes me that many are missing what's right in front of them. Kidd dropped several F bombs in his presser the other day, and sure didn't seem like someone who hadn't just tried to win that Suns game. He sure seemed like he cared about that loss to me.

The guy who doesn't care about early season is Luka, not Kidd. Sure, Kidd is doing some experimenting, but he kind of has to, with injuries, and as a result of three of his guards (two of whom were supposed to be in the rotation) starting the season less than ideally. He's very clearly disappointed with ALL of Grimes, Hardy and Dinwiddie, and we should be, too (so far). But, Luka is the one who started the season not playing defense, taking bad shots and missing them. He's looking better with each game, but the Mavs are 5-4 because they're built around a superstar who isn't super starring. Their two best defenders being out isn't helping, either.

The good news is that there's no need to panic. Luka will get into shape and start playing, eventually. They'll get 1-2 of those guards playing well behind Luka/Kyrie, eventually. Marshall and Thompson are going to continue to figure out how they fit in with this team, and eventually, Lively will come back and be the force we all know he is.

I agree with all of this and am certainly not saying that the loss was all on Kidd and that experimenting at this point of the season is a bad thing by any means but in Kidds case it always does feel like there’s some sort of weird mind games he’s trying to play vs looking for an actual on court solution. We are thin for sure but we aren’t “have to play the two-way guy” thin at this point.

The  slow starts fall on Lukas level of seriousness more so than Kidd but I would say it does feel like both view games before Christmas as preseason at times which is a little frustrating. I do appreciate Kidd trying to light a fire under the team, specifically Luka, after the game. Those words were directed towards Luka and all the things you mentioned before. This is the dude who led the league in first quarter scoring last year after all so Kidd has to find a way to get him going again.

Again, far from concerned, just odd that this is 4 straight years of this. It will (should) all wash out in the end because there’s just too much talent on this team and Luka is always the last guy I’m worried about big picture. Honestly I’ve gotten over my Kidd concerns from a big picture standpoint too, this is really just a small critique and not something I think holds the team back in the long run at all (although some players may not respond well to this coaching style but that’s on the front office to figure out).

[KillerLeft]

I agree with all of this and I appreciate your voice of reason.

But I can’t rationalize Kidd really wanting to win that Suns game at the same time throwing out Kessler Edward’s for 4 minutes for no reason. 


Either way, there is a serious lack of fire under our guys right now. Gafford especially imo.

The Edwards minutes were bad. 

But, what do we want him to do? He's obviously down on the way Grimes and Hardy have started their seasons, to the point where 137 year old Dinwiddie is the first guard off the bench each night, which I'm fairly certain, judging by the team's remuneration hierarchy and the opening night rotation, wasn't the plan coming out of training camp. I suspect those Edwards minutes were about sending a message to those guys, not throwing the game. In the long run, maybe the message was the right one? We'll see.

[mvossman]

Putting in Edwards over Grimes may have actually cost them the game. Kidd and his inane tinkering


@sixfivelando
Jason Kidd on what Quentin Grimes has to do to play more: “He’s gotta make a shot, he’s gotta just relax. Understand we’re missing layups, we’re just doing stupid stuff right now and that tends to happen during the season so we’re not gonna panic over that, but he’s not a plus.”

Man that seems harsh.  None of Grimes, Din or Hardy are making shots but Grimes is the only one who actually plays defense.  And that statement is not even true if you are looking at the data (and I know they look at the data).  I remember it took him forever to get Exum regular minutes and Grimes might be going down the same path.