FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min

[F Gump]

I disagree.  Maxi's unique set of skills makes him very valuable as a small ball center.  He is not nearly as valuable playing the 4, where his lack of offense is a bigger hit and his rim protection is less useful.  

Any two of PJ/Luka/Naji will be plenty of size in the frontcourt, especially when you have a legit center backing them up.  Most 4s in this league are really just big wings.  

By having Naji play the backup 4 minutes, you open up a lot more minutes for the backlog at 1-3.  

I love Maxi but he is the worst offensive player on the team.  It does not make sense to have him in the top 8 when we have better players that can fit in the same spot.  The exception being when we are going against 5 out teams in the playoffs that Gafford really struggles with.  In that case, Maxi will take some/most of his minutes.

While I agree that Maxi will be the player they use as a "small ball center," I think that he will be used mostly as a PF, and only minimally as a C, because I don't think they want to be a small ball team. I think playing Gafford-Lively has become an advantage that they will continue to embrace. Having the personnel on the floor for lots of dunks is a great complement to players who benefit from wide open 3's.

I also think Maxi is in their general mix of 3-and-D wings, and the fact that bigger ones (PF size) are hard to find has made him a good answer for that role. You mention Naji, and I agree he will will get 3-and-D minutes too.

" By having Naji play the backup 4 minutes, you open up a lot more minutes for the backlog at 1-3." -- I think the problem, such as it may be, is mostly with the pursuit of traditional positional labels. That's why I outlined how I expect that when everyone is healthy, 96 mpg or so would go to Luka-Kyrie-Klay, playing in various combos, and 96 mpg would be used for wing defenders (3-and-D, essentially) and noted the players who would be in that mix (PJW being in the starting lineup, and non-starter minutes going to Maxi, Naji, Grimes, Exum).

[SleepingHero]

I disagree.  Maxi's unique set of skills makes him very valuable as a small ball center.  He is not nearly as valuable playing the 4, where his lack of offense is a bigger hit and his rim protection is less useful.  

Any two of PJ/Luka/Naji will be plenty of size in the frontcourt, especially when you have a legit center backing them up.  Most 4s in this league are really just big wings.  

By having Naji play the backup 4 minutes, you open up a lot more minutes for the backlog at 1-3.  

I love Maxi but he is the worst offensive player on the team.  It does not make sense to have him in the top 8 when we have better players that can fit in the same spot.  The exception being when we are going against 5 out teams in the playoffs that Gafford really struggles with.  In that case, Maxi will take some/most of his minutes.

I understand this line of thinking and actually agree with it given that's how the Mavs have used Maxi for the last 7 years. But I actually think they will phase him out next season a bit, just because of his health.

The stretch 5 center that will take his place? I think it will be Dereck Lively.

[KillerLeft]

While I agree that Maxi will be the player they use as a "small ball center," I think that he will be used mostly as a PF, and only minimally as a C, because I don't think they want to be a small ball team. I think playing Gafford-Lively has become an advantage that they will continue to embrace. Having the personnel on the floor for lots of dunks is a great complement to players who benefit from wide open 3's.

What leads you to this belief? Is there some info I missed, or is it your own preference? 

From my POV, they used Kleber almost exclusively at the 5 down the stretch of the regular season, when those wins were stacking up, and then to start the playoffs. The lineup with Kleber at the 5 and PJ at the 4 was so clearly the best thing the Mavs had to offer defensively (at that time, at least - Lively continued to grow throughout the playoffs) and that's why they were closing many games that way.  Once Kleber came back from injury they tried him at the 4 a little in the Finals, but that was when Kidd was desperately trying anything, and those Kleber at the 4 minutes didn't exactly go well. All of that to say...my interpretation of what we just saw leads me to believe they absolutely view him as a center first. 

I also don't think playing him at the 5 makes them "small"...he's basically the same size as Gafford, length wise. Gafford is obviously a more vertical athlete. I think there are trade offs from one to the other in terms of skill sets, strengths, weaknesses, etc, and they are therefore a good set of options to have, personally, but neither is a 7-footer, or even 6'11", unless I'm mistaken. Both are more than strong enough to hold their own in the paint. Gafford is a little stronger, Kleber is a little quicker.

[KillerLeft]

Any two of PJ/Luka/Naji will be plenty of size in the frontcourt, especially when you have a legit center backing them up.  Most 4s in this league are really just big wings.  

This. I think people are still trying to find some Chris Webber, Kevin Garnett, Dirk, Tim Duncan-like "power forward" in their heads to complete the team. I honestly believe all four of those guys would be viewed as centers if entering the league today. 

I think Marshall's BEST position is probably the 4 (offensively, for sure, but maybe even defensively, some nights), and I'd submit that I personally can see Klay Thompson working much better here if he's the fourth name on your list above, rather than included with Kyrie, Exum, Grimes, Dinwiddie, etc. To me, he's in that Luka category where no matter what position you have him playing on offense, you probably want him on the slower forward, defensively.

[RGP1981]

This. I think people are still trying to find some Chris Webber, Kevin Garnett, Dirk, Tim Duncan-like "power forward" in their heads to complete the team. I honestly believe all four of those guys would be viewed as centers if entering the league today. 

I think Marshall's BEST position is probably the 4 (offensively, for sure, but maybe even defensively, some nights), and I'd submit that I personally can see Klay Thompson working much better here if he's the fourth name on your list above, rather than included with Kyrie, Exum, Grimes, Dinwiddie, etc. To me, he's in that Luka category where no matter what position you have him playing on offense, you probably want him on the slower forward, defensively.

Thus far, I'm very happy with PJW as the PF. TBH, I wouldn't mind another PJW to be PJW's backup, lol... but it would be nice if the backup was a little longer, to trouble the extra tall guys like Wemby on defense.

[SleepingHero]

 To me, he's in that Luka category where no matter what position you have him playing on offense, you probably want him on the slower forward, defensively.

That's just a gross underestimation of Klay's abilities defensively, even today. 

He was at one point one of the best 2-way wings in the league for multiple years up until his injuries. Since then he's still been a solid defender and has started for a championship team not just 2 years ago.

Is he the level of DJJ? No. But he's not a defensive liability where you have to hide him on a slower player because he can't keep up.

[KillerLeft]

That's just a gross underestimation of Klay's abilities defensively, even today. 

He was at one point one of the best 2-way wings in the league for multiple years up until his injuries. Since then he's still been a solid defender and has started for a championship team not just 2 years ago.

Is he the level of DJJ? No. But he's not a defensive liability where you have to hide him on a slower player because he can't keep up.

Man, I hope so!

But, I think you're taking my point farther than I am. I'm not talking about hiding him (or Luka), I'm saying I think he's probably big enough to guard the bigger, slower guys, which has the bonus benefit of getting him off the ball so he can rest on defense a little. That's all.

[KillerLeft]

Thus far, I'm very happy with PJW as the PF. TBH, I wouldn't mind another PJW to be PJW's backup, lol... but it would be nice if the backup was a little longer, to trouble the extra tall guys like Wemby on defense.

I get what you're saying here, but the reality is that very few wings can come close to matching Wmbenyama's length, even just kind of close, and he's going to end up at center, anyway, if they haven't decided that already. 

This might or might not be what you're saying above, I can't quite tell, but I think Marshall basically IS another PJW. He's getting discussed as DJJ's replacement on the roster (which he is) so much that people are stuck on this comp between the two, when in reality, on a sliding scale between PJW and DJJ, I think Marshall would be much closer to the PJW side.

[mvossman]

That's just a gross underestimation of Klay's abilities defensively, even today. 

He was at one point one of the best 2-way wings in the league for multiple years up until his injuries. Since then he's still been a solid defender and has started for a championship team not just 2 years ago.

Is he the level of DJJ? No. But he's not a defensive liability where you have to hide him on a slower player because he can't keep up.

I hope your right.  Recent evidence suggests otherwise.  We are missing a POA defender in the starting/finishing lineup, and I am struggling to Klay be a good fit for that role.  Hope I am wrong.

[SleepingHero]

Man, I hope so!

But, I think you're taking my point farther than I am. I'm not talking about hiding him (or Luka), I'm saying I think he's probably big enough to guard the bigger, slower guys, which has the bonus benefit of getting him off the ball so he can rest on defense a little. That's all.

Whoopsies. I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I think I've been conditioned to think whenever I see anyone talking about Luka's defensive role online that they're discussing how to hide him. My bad.


I think Klay is accustomed to guarding the larger guy. His size allows for that. I still think he can hold his own on the perimeter with quicker guys. I'm not saying he will be as effective as DJJ was in stopping the Fox's/Edwards of the league (who can really?) but I do think we can feel good having Klay there for stretches of time.

[KillerLeft]

I think Klay is accustomed to guarding the larger guy. His size allows for that. I still think he can hold his own on the perimeter with quicker guys. I'm not saying he will be as effective as DJJ was in stopping the Fox's/Edwards of the league (who can really?) but I do think we can feel good having Klay there for stretches of time.

He'll probably have to do a bit of both, if it's to work out here for him, but where my head is with it right now, sight unseen, is that finding ways to work the rotation to get him defensive assignments like Luka's, to make things easier on him in a lateral-movement, fighting through screens sense, will simultaneously make his life more manageable while opening up time for quicker, younger POA guys like Grimes and Exum to play more in ways that can benefit the defense. Heck, even when Thompson is out there with Marshall, I'd want Marshall chasing those guys around the perimeter more.

[mvossman]

While I agree that Maxi will be the player they use as a "small ball center," I think that he will be used mostly as a PF, and only minimally as a C, because I don't think they want to be a small ball team. I think playing Gafford-Lively has become an advantage that they will continue to embrace. Having the personnel on the floor for lots of dunks is a great complement to players who benefit from wide open 3's.

I also think Maxi is in their general mix of 3-and-D wings, and the fact that bigger ones (PF size) are hard to find has made him a good answer for that role. You mention Naji, and I agree he will will get 3-and-D minutes too.

" By having Naji play the backup 4 minutes, you open up a lot more minutes for the backlog at 1-3." -- I think the problem, such as it may be, is mostly with the pursuit of traditional positional labels. That's why I outlined how I expect that when everyone is healthy, 96 mpg or so would go to Luka-Kyrie-Klay, playing in various combos, and 96 mpg would be used for wing defenders (3-and-D, essentially) and noted the players who would be in that mix (PJW being in the starting lineup, and non-starter minutes going to Maxi, Naji, Grimes, Exum).

Let me put it a different way, I expect Luka, PJ and Naji to be well ahead of Maxi on the depth chart of "big" 3&D wings.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

That's just a gross underestimation of Klay's abilities defensively, even today. 

He was at one point one of the best 2-way wings in the league for multiple years up until his injuries. Since then he's still been a solid defender and has started for a championship team not just 2 years ago.

Is he the level of DJJ? No. But he's not a defensive liability where you have to hide him on a slower player because he can't keep up.

No offense but this sounds a lot like when DAJ came to Dallas. 
He was really good defensively a few years ago so fans weren’t willing to believe how bad he was now.

Klay might be ok if we hide him on 3s and 4s but the problem is Luka also needs to be hidden against that type of bigger/slower player.

[mvossman]

No offense but this sounds a lot like when DAJ came to Dallas. 
He was really good defensively a few years ago so fans weren’t willing to believe how bad he was now.

Klay might be ok if we hide him on 3s and 4s but the problem is Luka also needs to be hidden against that type of bigger/slower player.

Its kind of amazing to me the disparity in views on Klay defense on this board.  I lean closer to this point of view while others seem to think he is still a plus defender.  Hopefully with Lively starting it wont matter as much.

[F Gump]

What leads you to this belief? Is there some info I missed, or is it your own preference? 

From my POV, they used Kleber almost exclusively at the 5 down the stretch of the regular season, when those wins were stacking up, and then to start the playoffs. The lineup with Kleber at the 5 and PJ at the 4 was so clearly the best thing the Mavs had to offer defensively (at that time, at least - Lively continued to grow throughout the playoffs) and that's why they were closing many games that way.  Once Kleber came back from injury they tried him at the 4 a little in the Finals, but that was when Kidd was desperately trying anything, and those Kleber at the 4 minutes didn't exactly go well. All of that to say...my interpretation of what we just saw leads me to believe they absolutely view him as a center first. 

I also don't think playing him at the 5 makes them "small"...he's basically the same size as Gafford, length wise. Gafford is obviously a more vertical athlete. I think there are trade offs from one to the other in terms of skill sets, strengths, weaknesses, etc, and they are therefore a good set of options to have, personally, but neither is a 7-footer, or even 6'11", unless I'm mistaken. Both are more than strong enough to hold their own in the paint. Gafford is a little stronger, Kleber is a little quicker.

Info you missed -- all I am saying is simply based on what they have been doing, and apparently you failed to observe it.

I just did a manual count of Kleber's playoff minutes with/without a center (either Gafford or Lively). It was about a 60-40 split, with him playing PF more often. (I would have guessed it was more like 80-20, frankly.)

I agree it's hard to draw strong conclusions from the playoffs since he was dealing with injuries, but that's the raw data.

In general, I think the Mavs under Kidd have consistently seen him as their solution to a need for "big wing 3-and-D defender" who can help defend on the perimeter and that they otherwise lack. I would call that a PF.

In some situations, I would also perceive his play with PJW as functionally being a PF, in cases where it is designed to be a centerless 5-out approach with 2 F's (Maxi and PJW) and 3 guards, but the lack of either Gafford or Lively would allow us to class those minutes as him playing C.

My Opinion is that we are likely to see even more of Gafford and Lively going forward (which means fewer mins at C for Maxi), because I think Kidd likes bully ball, but we'll see.

[F Gump]

Let me put it a different way, I expect Luka, PJ and Naji to be well ahead of Maxi on the depth chart of "big" 3&D wings.

Luka/PJ not really relevant to the point, as we have been generally talking about the backups capable of filling 3-needs (Maxi, Naji, Grimes, Exum) and whether Maxi will be a regular part of that equation (specifically, as a PF), to which I say yes. I agree Naji will be used as backup at F (in general) and slotted where needed at the time.

[KillerLeft]

Info you missed -- all I am saying is simply based on what they have been doing, and apparently you failed to observe it.

I just did a manual count of Kleber's playoff minutes with/without a center (either Gafford or Lively). It was about a 60-40 split, with him playing PF more often. (I would have guessed it was more like 80-20, frankly.)

I agree it's hard to draw strong conclusions from the playoffs since he was dealing with injuries, but that's the raw data. 

This seems hostile and condescending. I'm not sure if you mean it that way or if I just don't jive with your writing style. I will choose not to take offense.

While I don't have the time (or will) to refute this "manual minutes count" of yours right now, I'm almost positive it's inaccurate, at least in the context I offered (down the stretch, during the win streak, after the trades). I vehemently disagree with your conclusions, especially the "what they have been doing" part.

PJW, Luka and Marshall will all play defensive 4 much, much more than Kleber. That's pretty obvious, imo. I guess we'll just have to see what happens!

In the future, if something I write makes you angry, you have the option of simply not responding. I've recently adopted this approach with a few people who irk me the way it seems like I'm irking you, and I have been having a better experience for it. Remember, you were the one who responded to my post today - it wasn't something I did "to you."

[F Gump]

This seems hostile and condescending. I'm not sure if you mean it that way or if I just don't jive with your writing style. I will choose not to take offense.

While I don't have the time (or will) to refute this "manual minutes count" of yours right now, I'm almost positive it's inaccurate, at least in the context I offered (down the stretch, during the win streak, after the trades). I vehemently disagree with your conclusions, especially the "what they have been doing" part.

PJW, Luka and Marshall will all play defensive 4 much, much more than Kleber. That's pretty obvious, imo. I guess we'll just have to see what happens!

In the future, if something I write makes you angry, you have the option of simply not responding. I've recently adopted this approach with a few people who irk me the way it seems like I'm irking you, and I have been having a better experience for it. Remember, you were the one who responded to my post today - it wasn't something I did "to you."

Irked? Angry? Not at all. I responded to what I believed to be your wrong assumption on what has already happened, and went to look at the numbers to be sure I wasn't missing something. Then I simply replied to exactly to what you asked (" Is there some info I missed?").  If I didn't word in the right way, my apologies.

I will summarize my points and opinions to make them easy: (1) in the Mavs view, Maxi is more PF than C -- or, to put it in playing terms, he has perimeter skills (on BOTH ends) and is not a roll man or traditional lane protector (although he has some skills in those areas), (2) that is based on when I watch the games, not on theory or personal -preference, (3) Mavs have few minutes available at C, and need a backup PF, so (4) Maxi will continue to be used primarily as a PF, assuming he is healthy.

That was my observation from watching games. I got it that you observed differently. Both of us could not be correct as to what they HAD done, so, wondering "Did I not see what I thought I saw?" I went to look it up in the best way I could get. I figured actual playoff minutes by lineup would offer that, since they would have prioritized best rotation possible, from their pov. I recognized the impact of Maxi's injury, but feel that his minutes in the playoffs were in whatever lineup they felt he was most valuable. So while quantity of minutes and quality of play may have dropped off due to the injury, the preferred lineups would be revealing.

Obviously his use with/without a C over the 82-game season as a whole was altered by the change in the team. Full season stats are useless.

They changed their approach (by multiple accounts) starting either vs MIA or the following game at DET, and went from an offense-priority to defense, with a steady diet of big men attacking the rim and blocking shots and trying to be a menace. If there is lineup data for just those last 18-20 games, that would help, although I think playoff data is more revealing. I don't have those 18-20 game numbers anyhow.

SUMMARY. If you think next season Kleber will be used sparingly and almost entirely at C, so be it. (I certainly disagree. I think there are very few minutes to be had at C, Maxi is good and Kidd values his play.) If you want to dismiss how he was actually used in the playoffs, so be it. (I certainly disagree, and imo that was the best lens into their thinking.) And if you think it's somehow hostile to share what the playoffs lineup minutes were, have at it! But I promise you, I do know how to count!

How many minutes will NEITHER Gafford or Lively be on the floor? I think that's typically going to be close to 0. Yet I think Kleber will still get significant minutes (I'm expecting avg in the 15-20 mpg range) when healthy.

[KillerLeft]

That was my observation from watching games. I got it that you observed differently. Both of us could not be correct as to what they HAD done, so, wondering "Did I not see what I thought I saw?" I went to look it up in the best way I could get. I figured actual playoff minutes by lineup would offer that, since they would have prioritized best rotation possible, from their pov. I recognized the impact of Maxi's injury, but feel that his minutes in the playoffs were in whatever lineup they felt he was most valuable. So while quantity of minutes and quality of play may have dropped off due to the injury, the preferred lineups would be revealing.

Ah, well if you mean this past playoffs, then that's actually the single worst way of approaching it (imho). 

Kleber was hurt before round two (which is when they needed him the most) and played just sparingly in two games leading up to the finals. Then, in the finals, MOST players were used in increasingly erratic ways, due to Kidd realizing they were in trouble and (quite literally) desperately guessing at what might work (in vain, of course). I accounted for this several posts ago, and I vividly remember how horrible Kleber looked in those finals games as the "second" big. I might be wrong, but I doubt the Mavs' decision makers were encouraged by that. 

The period to study for insight into the intent of their design, I think, is the last 27-5 (might have the loss total wrong) stretch of the regular season when they were possibly the best team in the NBA. There were quite a few changes over the course of that stretch, but they closed with Kleber at the 5 quite a bit, and it was glorious. I don't know that it speaks to their intent moving forward in terms of closing, because every day we live in a world where Dereck Lively is better than he was the day before and that was several playoff rounds ago now. But, it certainly shows what they thought was working (and what worked) then, and that was before they added Marshall, who's actually more like PJW, defensively, than he's like DJJ. 

I just don't agree is probably the shortest way of saying it. 

Glad to hear you weren't irked! I respect your contributions a lot, and nobody likes to feel attacked!

[rocky164]

Ah, well if you mean this past playoffs, then that's actually the single worst way of approaching it (imho). 

Kleber was hurt before round two (which is when they needed him the most) and played just sparingly in two games leading up to the finals. Then, in the finals, MOST players were used in increasingly erratic ways, due to Kidd realizing they were in trouble and (quite literally) desperately guessing at what might work (in vain, of course). I accounted for this several posts ago, and I vividly remember how horrible Kleber looked in those finals games as the "second" big. I might be wrong, but I doubt the Mavs' decision makers were encouraged by that. 

The period to study for insight into the intent of their design, I think, is the last 27-5 (might have the loss total wrong) stretch of the regular season when they were possibly the best team in the NBA. There were quite a few changes over the course of that stretch, but they closed with Kleber at the 5 quite a bit, and it was glorious. I don't know that it speaks to their intent moving forward in terms of closing, because every day we live in a world where Dereck Lively is better than he was the day before and that was several playoff rounds ago now. But, it certainly shows what they thought was working (and what worked) then, and that was before they added Marshall, who's actually more like PJW, defensively, than he's like DJJ. 

I just don't agree is probably the shortest way of saying it. 

Glad to hear you weren't irked! I respect your contributions a lot, and nobody likes to feel attacked!

Honestly, I think you both may be correct based on the games you’re using to justify your points.  In the last 20 or so games in the regular season the Maxi-PJ line-ups were fantastic and often used successfully to close games.  Some of this though was they knew Gafford couldn’t close and they didn’t trust that Lively was ready to close.

But in the playoffs, Maxi got hurt and they were forced to close with Lively and Lively proved himself more than capable of closing.  So closing lineup became PJ-Lively

Going forward they now know that Lively can close and given another year to develop may even become elite.  So they want 48 minutes of Lively/Gafford at center.  Maxi can still be used at center, but I think it will only happen due to injury, foul trouble, or slightly possible due to rare opposition lineups.  Maxi will become the “break glass in case of emergency” center