FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min

[Knutsen]

Yeah, not sure if I follow your reasoning, but I think you're saying ....

"They signed SD because Hardy isn't good enough, especially as a scoring PG to run the offense (which was their dream)."

(a) Yep, sounds about right. I think that was one of the things they have wanted Hardy to become. And he just didn't.
(b) I think they have moved on from Hardy for the most part. They're finding better answers and have stopped waiting.

I think SD is envisioned as the emergency PG (and not as a potential THJ or Hardy replacement), and will  split those very limited minutes with Exum, with SD as the emergency PG who can score and distribute, and Exum as the emergency PG who can defend and distribute. A very limited role, except in emergencies and "load management" situations.

I think Hardy's path to minutes at PG is now gone, blocked by 1 Luka  2 Kyrie  3/4 Exum/SD.

I think Hardy's path to minutes is now solely at wing (SG-SF), and is effectively blocked by 5 players who will all be in line to get minutes over him:  Kyrie, Klay, Naji, Grimes, Exum, all of whom look to be better choices than Hardy on BOTH ends of the floor. All of those except Kyrie are good defenders, and all can score efficiently.

I’m with you on that one. Baseline is Dinwiddie is the backup option for the 20 games Kyrie might miss - based on the seasons before the last one - to keep the ship afloat and us winning. If he turns out to be more in the mold of a sixth or seventh man, because he thrives with the space he gets next to Luka, Kyrie or Klay as an attack player, than that’s a welcome sight, but can’t be expected based on his contract. Basically the same as DJJ last year, just on the other end of the floor.

[ballsrchr]

A.) Bigger playmaker: Luka - Dinwiddie
B.) Scorer: Kyrie - Hardy
C.) Shooter (Defender?) Klay - Grimes
D.) Dirty Work Big Wing: PJ - Naji
E.) Big: Lively - Gafford

Exum can give you some A and C
Maxi can give you some D and E (along with being the only stretch 5)
Powell can give you some E

Morris is a cheerleader
OMax is the hope of some C or D

Not all perfect fits but the player archetypes kind of line up.

While not perfect I think this list adequately outlines our team going forward.  It might change after the season progresses

I think Exum probably should come before Dinwiddie in the "A" slot.  He did some good work during the regular season--I have no idea why he dropped off during the playoffs.  Might be something to work on.  I think he can be very important to the team.

I'm higher on Hardy than most people.  "B" slot behind Kyrie is exactly where he should be.  He is still a work in progress, but has the tools and room to grow.

I'm right behind WAB in moderating minutes for Kyrie and Luka. That's what the rest of the team is for...among other things.  50 or 60 wins does nothing for us if our two stars are broke down come the playoffs.

[mvossman]

This is a good point and reminder that we can't just fast forward to the playoffs.

However, to WAB's point, given everything we just witnessed and imagining this past post-season exactly as it was, only with Dinwiddie on the roster, I do think it's likely he would've gotten a bigger role than Exum. The question is: will Exum continue to grow and learn from those series? He CAN be a threat to score - a good one, actually. It's just that he WON'T. I sure hope he goes into this season with the idea that he's got to improve in that area to add to the other ways in which he helps, because there inevitably comes a point (usually around the 2nd round) where you simply cannot play if being on the floor means the other team can defend 5 on 4. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but that's where my Hardy takes are coming from. He IS a threat, and consequently got tapped for playoff minutes he clearly wasn't ready to play, but they needed someone to be a threat so, so badly, he was the only choice. In that context, I kind of think this Dinwiddie thing might be about more than just an end of bench swing (though I do agree with your point about putting the roster together for the whole season, not just the playoffs).

To WAB's point, who is going to fill in that third offensive role in the playoffs that Timmy, Exum and Hardy all failed at?  We already have that role filled, its going to be Klay.  Naji will take DJJ place and Grimes will take Green place.  Din, Exum and Hardy will be fighting over regular season minutes, but I doubt any of them will crack the top 8 rotation in the playoffs if the team is healthy.

[Benskix2]

I look at Spencer as a very poor mans Luka, who can fill in when Luka gets a night off or has early foul trouble, so that Exum can play a more defined bench role and won't look so burned out come playoff time.

[michaeltex]

To WAB's point, who is going to fill in that third offensive role in the playoffs that Timmy, Exum and Hardy all failed at?  We already have that role filled, its going to be Klay.  Naji will take DJJ place and Grimes will take Green place.  Din, Exum and Hardy will be fighting over regular season minutes, but I doubt any of them will crack the top 8 rotation in the playoffs if the team is healthy.

It feels like there is some loss of trust by the staff in both Hardy and Exum. 

I was kind of down on Hardy after he blew his chance to show leadership in the SL last year. Tried for a game or two but wasn't effective with a lot of TOs, then just went out to be a scorer. During the season, other than a rare alley oop to Gaff/Dlive, I didn't see much shot creation when he played the rest of the season. Although I did like the speed he played at, he seem out of control too often to be that far ahead of his team mates. He turned out to be a "break glass in emergency" option in the Finals that didn't work.

Exum was an unknown coming back from his Euro adventure, but he showed some defensive skills and seemed to be a good enough scorer to keep defenses honest, especially from distance. Had that late season injury and never seemed to make it back to where he was before. With his size, I'd really like to see him return to form.

So I think this leaves them both in limbo and the staff wants to see how they compete through camp and into the early season. 

Dinwiddie is in that same lane and will compete with the other two for playing opportunities. I think he still has some cachet from his pre-trade time here. If he's still as effective and the 2nd unit thrives when he's playing, then he will see time, salaries be damned.

[Chicagojk]

19- 41%
21- 37%
21-dallas- 49.8%
22 Dallas- 45.5%
22 Nets- 40%
23 Nets 39%

Three point shooting
19- 30%
21- 31%
21- Dallas- 40%
22 Dallas- 40%
22- nets 28%
23- nets 32%

Crazy how much better Dinwiddie shot in Dallas. Is that real? I felt like it wasn't even the Luka effect. He seemed to take a lot of dribble threes. This is probably one stat...and his ability to get into the lane that will determine how much he plays. Will obviously need to be dialed in on defensive rotations too.

[SleepingHero]

19- 41%
21- 37%
21-dallas- 49.8%
22 Dallas- 45.5%
22 Nets- 40%
23 Nets 39%

Three point shooting
19- 30%
21- 31%
21- Dallas- 40%
22 Dallas- 40%
22- nets 28%
23- nets 32%

Crazy how much better Dinwiddie shot in Dallas.  Is that real?  I felt like it wasn't even the Luka effect.  He seemed to take a lot of dribble threes.  This is probably one stat...and his ability to get into the lane that will determine how much he plays.  Will obviously need to be dialed in on defensive rotations too.

Spencer's time in Dallas does seem like quite an outlier given his last 5 years. However he played in 76 regular season games and 18 playoff games for a total of 94.

Overall he averaged 16.6ppg/3rpg/4.6apg on 45.8% FG and 40.6% from 3 in his time in Dallas.  Not far off from his career averages since becoming a rotation player but much more efficient (14/3/5 42 and 34 respectively). 

94 games is too many to think he didn't benefit from somehow from Luka's spacing vs. it being just a random hot shooting streak that isn't able to be reliably reproduced. In fact we have kind of already seen him benefit from the "Luka effect" already not just 2 months ago.

He actually shot nearly 39% on 3s with the Lakers and many of them were spot up 3s in the corner. Luka and Lebron are very similar so I don't find it surprising that Spencer all of a sudden became a near 40% 3pt shooter in 28 games next to Lebron after shooting 31% in 74 games the previous seasons for Brooklyn.

I'm optimistic that Dinwiddie will return to form, even if he won't realistically be as lights out as he was his first time around.

[LukaMVP]

din was a main part of the package used in the Kyrie trade and he's about the same age as Kyrie, he was bought out last season but it doesn't mean he's turned scrub imho, and coming back to a system where he once performed so well will be a boost to him. being a backup handler behind luka and Kyrie means he will be counted more as an offensive option rather than a defensive one, so as I guess it will work just fine.

[SleepingHero]

He looked pretty spry here on the Lakers. Obviously highlights are just that, highlights. But he doesn't seem that far off from the Dinwiddie I remember on the Mavs here.

[BigDirk41]

Spencer's time in Dallas does seem like quite an outlier given his last 5 years. However he played in 76 regular season games and 18 playoff games for a total of 94.

Overall he averaged 16.6ppg/3rpg/4.6apg on 45.8% FG and 40.6% from 3 in his time in Dallas.  Not far off from his career averages since becoming a rotation player but much more efficient (14/3/5 42 and 34 respectively). 

94 games is too many to think he didn't benefit from somehow from Luka's spacing vs. it being just a random hot shooting streak that isn't able to be reliably reproduced. In fact we have kind of already seen him benefit from the "Luka effect" already not just 2 months ago.

He actually shot nearly 39% on 3s with the Lakers and many of them were spot up 3s in the corner. Luka and Lebron are very similar so I don't find it surprising that Spencer all of a sudden became a near 40% 3pt shooter in 28 games next to Lebron after shooting 31% in 74 games the previous seasons for Brooklyn.

I'm optimistic that Dinwiddie will return to form, even if he won't realistically be as lights out as he was his first time around.

Plus Dinwiddie was pretty damn clutch here. I remember at least a couple of game winners from him. He doesn't mind the moment. That can't be taught.

[The Jom]

He is the GOATee.

[Dundalis]

I don't see it this way at all. 

I think Hardy and Dinwiddie are basically the same, exact player, just at different points in their development. Neither of them is a "PG" in the way this board has been trying to claim matters (but it doesn't matter, anymore). Hardy is more talented, but far less experienced, so Dinwiddie is going to be the easier choice for Kidd all season, which is unfortunate, imo. 

They can play together, but it's not at all ideal. Neither of them playing with Kyrie is at all ideal. Any of those three will work next to Luka most of the time, but all three are defensive liabilities. 

I was ready to live in a world where the guys rotating as bench guards were Hardy, Grimes and Exum, in whatever order. Dinwiddie taking any time away from any of those three is a bummer for me, sorry.

Hardy is not anywhere remotely close to Dinwiddie as a playmaker. Not sure how you justify that statement. And it has nothing to do with age. Dinwiddie's assist percentage has been close to double Hardy's since he got in the league. Dinwiddie has some definite weaknesses as a playmaker, but he's light years better than Hardy at it, and it's not really close.

I want Hardy to develop as much as anyone, and was super high on him after his first season, and thought he could be more than the microwave scorer people said was his ceiling, but his regression last season, and complete failure to develop whatsoever in terms of his ability to be any type of reliable primary ball handler was very disappointing. I think he has a similar issue to Josh Green (not in terms of style of play), and that is a low basketball IQ. He's like the polar opposite of Lively in that sense. I have a feeling if he does turn into anything, it's probably when he's 24-25 because that low bball IQ stunts his ability to adapt and develop quickly. I do hope I'm proven wrong.

Also for people saying Dinwiddie's regressed since he left Dallas, that's just false. He's been exactly the same inefficient chucker post Mavs as he was pre Mavs. He's not changed a bit. It's the simple fact that Dallas gave him the exact role that maximised his strengths and minimised his weaknesses. You don't want him running an entire offense for too long by himself, but he can do that as long as he has another primary initiator to hand off to when required, and you don't want him responsible for taking on the teams entire offensive burdon. Let him score and playmake in a secondary ball handler role, and feed him as many open corner 3's as you can (he shoots 40% from the corner). That's how his numbers with the Mavs are in such stark contrast to the rest of his career.

For me, I'm happy we essentially now have a 4th player who I think could reliably go on a stretch of games giving you 20+ points per night. Last season we only had two. I fully expect him to be the first option off the bench for both scoring and playmaking punch

[Dundalis]

To WAB's point, who is going to fill in that third offensive role in the playoffs that Timmy, Exum and Hardy all failed at?  We already have that role filled, its going to be Klay.  Naji will take DJJ place and Grimes will take Green place.  Din, Exum and Hardy will be fighting over regular season minutes, but I doubt any of them will crack the top 8 rotation in the playoffs if the team is healthy.

If Dinwiddie's production is a product of the Mavs system, vs the other teams he's been on, he's in the playoff rotation, no question. We are talking about who's gonna fill in that third offensive role in the playoffs, like we didn't just lose to a team that had like 5 legit offensive weapons. Guys who can legitimately create their own shot (and shown a propensity to do well in clutch situations) are just as valuable come playoff time as the lockdown defender types. It could be that he's legitimately washed, but his post Mavs production is too similar to pre Mavs for me to think it's age related and not role/system related.

[KillerLeft]

Hardy is not anywhere remotely close to Dinwiddie as a playmaker. Not sure how you justify that statement. And it has nothing to do with age. Dinwiddie's assist percentage has been close to double Hardy's since he got in the league. Dinwiddie has some definite weaknesses as a playmaker, but he's light years better than Hardy at it, and it's not really close.

I want Hardy to develop as much as anyone, and was super high on him after his first season, and thought he could be more than the microwave scorer people said was his ceiling, but his regression last season, and complete failure to develop whatsoever in terms of his ability to be any type of reliable primary ball handler was very disappointing. I think he has a similar issue to Josh Green (not in terms of style of play), and that is a low basketball IQ. He's like the polar opposite of Lively in that sense. I have a feeling if he does turn into anything, it's probably when he's 24-25 because that low bball IQ stunts his ability to adapt and develop quickly. I do hope I'm proven wrong.

Also for people saying Dinwiddie's regressed since he left Dallas, that's just false. He's been exactly the same inefficient chucker post Mavs as he was pre Mavs. He's not changed a bit. It's the simple fact that Dallas gave him the exact role that maximised his strengths and minimised his weaknesses. You don't want him running an entire offense for too long by himself, but he can do that as long as he has another primary initiator to hand off to when required, and you don't want him responsible for taking on the teams entire offensive burdon. Let him score and playmake in a secondary ball handler role, and feed him as many open corner 3's as you can (he shoots 40% from the corner). That's how his numbers with the Mavs are in such stark contrast to the rest of his career.

For me, I'm happy we essentially now have a 4th player who I think could reliably go on a stretch of games giving you 20+ points per night. Last season we only had two. I fully expect him to be the first option off the bench for both scoring and playmaking punch

Leaving Hardy to the side, where you and I disagree is identifying Dinwiddie as a playmaker. I don't think of him that way at all. I think Dinwiddie has been a useful player, particularly towards the end of his Nets days and while he was here, but I think he's much more of a "get his own" type than people here seem to believe. I don't think he's some cure all for lack of offensive ball-movement. The opposite, really. 

Further, he's not really a 3-level scorer the way Luka, Kyrie (and yes, Hardy) are. So, as he slows and the paint is less attainable for him, he's likely to become far too "bad shots from the perimeter" oriented, which is probably part of why he fell off a cliff after leaving the Mavs and the stellar spread spacing (they had at the time). There's reason to hope the spacing here will be better than it was last season due to Thompson, Grimes and even Marshall, but it's far from a guarantee at this point. 

It's all going to be very interesting.

[KillerLeft]

If Dinwiddie's production is a product of the Mavs system, vs the other teams he's been on, he's in the playoff rotation, no question. We are talking about who's gonna fill in that third offensive role in the playoffs, like we didn't just lose to a team that had like 5 legit offensive weapons. Guys who can legitimately create their own shot are just as valuable come playoff time as the lockdown defender types.

I agree with this point, for the record, and don't think for even a second that the Mavs aren't at least hoping Dinwiddie can be one of their top 8.

[The Jom]

He’s only 31. Guards with skillz don’t fall off a cliff at 31 unless their game depends on athleticism, which Dinwiddie’s doesn’t. As a PG, maybe he does get his own a little too much. But not as a second guard. As a starter, maybe his defense is suspect. But not as a bench piece. Why didn’t he pick us at the deadline when we would’ve been excited about him instead of making that lame poppa/momma analogy and pissing us all off? Who knows. But he’s always been a bit weird. And you know he was watching all playoffs kicking himself and thinking, like Klay, I coulda helped with that. As a 14th or 15th piece? This is as good as it gets.

[KillerLeft]

He’s only 31. Guards with skillz don’t fall off a cliff at 31 unless their game depends on athleticism, which Dinwiddie’s doesn’t. As a PG, maybe he does get his own a little too much. But not as a second guard. As a starter, maybe his defense is suspect. But not as a bench piece. Why didn’t he pick us at the deadline when we would’ve been excited about him instead of making that lame poppa/momma analogy and pissing us all off? Who knows. But he’s always been a bit weird. And you know he was watching all playoffs kicking himself and thinking, like Klay, I coulda helped with that. As a 14th or 15th piece? This is as good as it gets.

I disagree that athletic ability isn't part of what made him successful. He was good here for two reasons:

1) His outside shooting was much better than we expected. Not (directly) because of the Luka effect, because he takes a lot of perimeter shots off the dribble. I'm sure there is a systemic reason he was better in that area, even if it's just confidence-related, as in maybe he thrives off of being empowered by a constant green light, but it's possible that part of it was just that the Mavs just caught him on an extended hot streak. 

2) He was able to get downhill with the ball, like a LOT. This had to do with the spacing we discussed earlier, and the changes the Mavs have made since then have decreased that spacing somewhat (again, I'm hopeful the pendulum will swing a little back towards spacing due to the roster choices they made this summer), but it also had to do with him being quick and strong in the paint. That's athleticism. Factually.

[Dundalis]

Leaving Hardy to the side, where you and I disagree is identifying Dinwiddie as a playmaker. I don't think of him that way at all. I think Dinwiddie has been a useful player, particularly towards the end of his Nets days and while he was here, but I think he's much more of a "get his own" type than people here seem to believe. I don't think he's some cure all for lack of offensive ball-movement. The opposite, really. 

Further, he's not really a 3-level scorer the way Luka, Kyrie (and yes, Hardy) are. So, as he slows and the paint is less attainable for him, he's likely to become far too "bad shots from the perimeter" oriented, which is probably part of why he fell off a cliff after leaving the Mavs and the stellar spread spacing (they had at the time). There's reason to hope the spacing here will be better than it was last season due to Thompson, Grimes and even Marshall, but it's far from a guarantee at this point. 

It's all going to be very interesting.

I'm not really attempting to call Dinwiddie a playmaker as an isolated descriptor of his game though. I'm saying the playmaking facet of Dinwiddie's game is light years better than Hardy's. And it was, even from the second Dinwiddie came into the league. Dinwiddie's ability to make passing decisions with the ball in his hands is just far superior, and literally every play making related statistic backs that up.

I also don't really buy into this team moving towards a Warriors style ball movement team. We will throw some extra wrinkles with Klay on the team sure, but as long as Luka Doncic leads this team, it's primary diet will always be iso heavy half court offense, simple as that. I think people thinking because we added some ball movement types, there will be some drastic change to the teams style, but IMO the only way it really happens in any significant way is if Luka is no longer on the team.

Given that, I'm fine adding a guy like Dinwiddie who will primarily score, but also facilitate at a higher rate than anyone on the team not named Luka or Kyrie, even though he's fairly ball dominant. Especially given his low turnover rates. He is an added scoring punch we absolutely need IMO when you compare our roster to a team like Boston's. Also if you look at his shooting percentages at the rim, in the mid range and from 3 when he was on the Mavs, he absolutely was a 3 level scorer (Hardy isn't anywhere close to those numbers). Now over the course of just two years has his athleticism fallen off that much between the ages 29 and 31, maybe, I haven't watched him enough.

Also as I mentioned, he didn't really fall off a cliff after leaving the Mavs. If he had, I'd be more inclined to call it age related decline. His numbers with the Nets post Mavs are basically the same as with the Wizards pre Mavs. With the Lakers he was given a completely different role. So he didn't really fall off, he literally reverted to what he had already been when not on probably the only team he's played for in his career that fully catered to his stregnths.

[KillerLeft]

I also don't really buy into this team moving towards a Warriors style ball movement team. We will throw some extra wrinkles with Klay on the team sure, but as long as Luka Doncic leads this team, it's primary diet will always be iso heavy half court offense, simple as that. I think people thinking because we added some ball movement types, there will be some drastic change to the teams style, but IMO the only way it really happens in any significant way is if Luka is no longer on the team.

Oh, I don't either, and this specific addition is the final indicator of just how entrenched they are in a heliocentric, lack of ball movement offense. It's part of my disappointment, and why I reacted the way I did to a 1-year minimum signing near the end of the summer.

EDIT: From what I can glean reading your takes on this page, we actually see this summer the same way (and differently from how many here see it) but might have differing levels of enthusiasm for how it turned out. I don't believe the Mavs will ever win a championship until the ball starts moving, personally. I would love to be wrong, because I agree that it's unlikely they'll approach things differently in the near future.

[Mavs2021]

I'm not really attempting to call Dinwiddie a playmaker as an isolated descriptor of his game though. I'm saying the playmaking facet of Dinwiddie's game is light years better than Hardy's. And it was, even from the second Dinwiddie came into the league. Dinwiddie's ability to make passing decisions with the ball in his hands is just far superior, and literally every play making related statistic backs that up.

You must be the only person here that saw Dinwiddie´s first 500 NBA minutes over the two seasons he played in Detroit, so I guess we take your word for it.