Trade & FA 2024-25:

[KillerLeft]

 Make it lottery protected or top 20 protected or whatever you want and back it up with a conversion to our second in 2025.  I’m not sure the difference in #24-#27 a year from now is all that different than #34 now.

If it converts quickly like that, to the point where it's really a "fake first" that's a little different, I admit. 

It would have to be a ridiculous protection like that for me to consider it, however.

[BigDirk41]

Maybe the plan is to play 48 minutes of DJJ and Thybulle at the 3 kinda like they do with Lively and Gafford at the 5. All defense and intensity all the time. Just a thought.

[KillerLeft]

He made two all-defense teams in the past so media/players/fans clearly recognized his impact. Problem is that come playoff time things in Philly fall apart and everyone not named Embiid ends up in the scapegoat conversation (this year it is Tobias Harris turn). Thybulle played a minor role in all of this but in the end Philly traded him instead of extending/resigning him at the end of his rookie contract.
He ended up on a tanking team in Portland. Not the kind of place where defensive minded role players earn individual accolades. And to make things worse he isn't getting a lot of minutes because a) Blazers are trying to develop younger guys b) his minutes hurt the tank. They actually shut him down in mid march. He did not play in the last 15 games of the season.

This "Philly has been a dumpster fire in some ways" argument makes some sense, thanks.

[KillerLeft]

Maybe the plan is to play 48 minutes of DJJ and Thybulle at the 3 kinda like they do with Lively and Gafford at the 5. All defense and intensity all the time. Just a thought.

Maybe, and I think that might be cool in some ways. 

But, that's not going to fix what Boston just exposed as their weakness. 

We ALL like the defensive identity. None of us WANT to throw that out in the wash. But, the offense was BAD in the finals, and to Jason Timpf's point, which sent a cold chill down my spine, the entire NBA is about to game plan for Dallas the exact, same way. Obviously, not all of them will be successful in neutralizing that 1-5 screen and roll, but I'm pretty convinced, from him, other analysts and just my own reflection on what we've seen since Kidd got here, that the Mavericks need an adjustment to their offensive system to keep moving forward. 

I think there's untapped offensive potential already on the roster, but I also think they need at least one forward (in a rotation of at least 3) who can actually threaten the defense from the high-screen area. Two would be even better, so hopefully either DJJ or PJ (or BOTH) have some improvement on their minds this summer. And, the hardest part is that we now KNOW that BOTH forwards on the floor basically at all times MUST be good defenders.

I've said this a thousand times, but it has never been more true than it is now: Every time you lock a player into a consistent role, the target for which other players fit next to the team gets smaller and more difficult to hit. When the team sucks, you're just looking to add talent, no matter who, how, or from where. But on a good team, you're looking to fit players into the mold of what your rotation needs to improve in some areas without losing momentum you've gained in others. Identifying the right guy is just as difficult at that point, if not MORE difficult, than figuring out how to get him.

[BigDirk41]

Maybe, and I think that might be cool in some ways. 

But, that's not going to fix what Boston just exposed as their weakness. 

We ALL like the defensive identity. None of us WANT to throw that out in the wash. But, the offense was BAD in the finals, and to Jason Timpf's point, which sent a cold chill down my spine, the entire NBA is about to game plan for Dallas the exact, same way. Obviously, not all of them will be successful in neutralizing that 1-5 screen and roll, but I'm pretty convinced, from him, other analysts and just my own reflection on what we've seen since Kidd got here, that the Mavericks need an adjustment to their offensive system to keep moving forward. 

I think there's untapped offensive potential already on the roster, but I also think they need at least one forward (in a rotation of at least 3) who can actually threaten the defense from the high-screen area.

I hate the "offense" the Mavs run so I hope they implement an actual system that they can rely on when needed.

[LukaMVP]

the addition of Thybulle would help this team for sure and he is one of the role players coveted by me and probably the mavs FO as well. but he isn't worth a valuable first round pick. Thybulle is a freak at defensive end, that said, while he can hit some threes rather efficiently in offense, there isn't much else he can contribute because his offensive game is very limited (like gafford in some way). overall Thybulle is the same level of guy as DJJ who is a weaker defender but a better scorer. gafford cost us a first but I believe part of the pick's value was paid for dumping Holmes's garbage contract (which we acquired alongside omax). Thybulle is worth a second rounder or even two seconds depending on the market (similar to Vanderbilt) but he ain't worth giving up a first, something we ain't got plenty of and hence gotta make better use of.

[KillerLeft]

I hate the "offense" the Mavs run so I hope they implement an actual system that they can rely on when needed.

Yeah, I'm as big of a Luka/Kyrie fan as the next dude, but when they encounter a defense who can credibly switch everything, which plenty of modern teams can, they MUST have an option for a solution to that other than Luka/Kyrie going 1-on-1 for 48 minutes. That's just idiocracy. I'll take either of them in that situation in high leverage, late, game-on-the-line moments, absolutely! But, for the whole game???? Nobody else is touching the ball, they're wearing themselves out (even more exacerbated if they're being forced to play defense on the other end, which Boston made a point of doing, too). It's just not a good plan. Like, at all. 

We saw them try some pick and pop with PJ Washington (I want to say it was Game 2 of the Minnesota series, but can't remember) and he went like 1-7 on the wide open above the break shots that action generated. So, for this postseason, at least, that wasn't even a viable option against drop coverage, so against a switch team like Boston, it was obviously not a good idea.

Again, these guys on the team should get better. I'm usually the poster child for internal development past the age of 25 around here, but in this case, I think something a little more drastic might be required. To your point, part of it is systemic, though to what degree improvement there can make a difference, or if they will even attempt to improve the system, only time will tell.

[SleepingHero]

The other thing I noticed (and I had to check this twice to be sure) but he averaged almost 3 steals per 36 and over a block.  In fact for his career, he is averaging 4 bocks + steals per 36.  Thats kind of crazy.

EDIT: That is higher than Caruso, JJJ and Chet.  It may be highest in the league.

I originally wrote something similar on Thybulle over the trade deadline (or maybe even the summer last year??). He's the only guard to block more than 2 shots a game per 100 possessions more than once in his career. And the only other times it has happened has been Michael Jordan, Danny Green, and I think Tayshaun Prince if I remember right.

Point is, a guard does not block shots usually. And basically no guard/forward in the history of the league has been as good as Thybulle on blocking shots.

He's also has been in the top 5 of steals per game basically every season of his career save his last season in Philly where he wasn't in the rotation. 

He is another level of defender. Better than DJJ. Better than PJ. He is that good.

[Chicagojk]

I found this interesting. I can’t count how many times this year where it felt like the ball was right there for a guy like Hardaway but he had no ball awareness.


https://youtu.be/P6_L-lFiOjU?si=vbSV2zQhlq3PhWYo

[KillerLeft]

He is another level of defender. Better than DJJ. Better than PJ. He is that good.

But, how often have you verified this with your eyeballs? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but the stats just don't reconcile (for me) the disconnect between this opinion and how it appears he is not coveted around the league. 

You might be right, and if the Mavs can get him, I hope you are! 

I'm just looking for more context on WHY the Mavs seem to be the one team that's always trying to get this dude. It just feels like if he were this good, he'd be involved in more discussions.

[BigDirk41]

I'm all for getting Thybulle and giving the guy a chance, but not at the expense of a first. Worst case is we have a lock down defender for crucial possessions or particular players. Maybe he can knock down enough 3s to justify decent minutes. Maybe he can get out and run to get some easy points.

[F Gump]

A couple of ways in which it might matter….thus my reason for exploring it further.

Green is slightly easier to move in June which would allow you to deal with Jones immediately.  I don’t trade Green for air and I don’t do it at all unless I’ve got the second deal (THJ for improvement) lined up already or I’m executing it simultaneously.

THJ outgoing gets you a higher paid player in a < 100% trade match.

" Green is slightly easier to move in June which would allow you to deal with Jones immediately. "....In general, I don't see how Green is easier to move in June instead of July. A Green trade doesn't have to precede THJ trade (and remember, a Green trade doesn't have to happen at all). And with the way they changed the rules, few teams have more flexibility now than in July.

More than that, any potential "June trade partner" or "July trade partner" or "deal with DJJ" is already in full discussion. They can do it when they need to, but no reason a June trade would be more helpful to DAL. Decisions can be made now on any and all of them, whether or not they can pull the trigger. Mavs can't actually ink DJJ in June anyhow. So is what to do with THJ as well. All are intertwined. 

I think they are searching for the best DEAL, not one with a June qualifier.

[SleepingHero]

Kurt Helin
@basketballtalk
Klay Thompson's contract talks with Warriors reportedly "frozen," his exit from Golden State appears likely

[BigDirk41]

I'm assuming it's Thybulle because Nico identified him as someone we needed last season so I doubt his view of him has changed. I do trust Nico at this point. PJ is way damn better than I imagined. Gafford has been great too. He was exposed some in the playoffs, but most traditional centers are.

[BigDirk41]

Kurt Helin
@basketballtalk
Klay Thompson's contract talks with Warriors reportedly "frozen," his exit from Golden State appears likely

This is Klay's fault for turning down 2/48 last off-season. I don't feel sorry for him. That offer was more than fair. He bet on himself and lost.

[KillerLeft]

I found this interesting.  I can’t count how many times this year where it felt like the ball was right there for a guy like Hardaway but he had no ball awareness.


https://youtu.be/P6_L-lFiOjU?si=vbSV2zQhlq3PhWYo

DUUUUUDE, this video was GOLD! Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for posting this! 

Definitely supports dirkfansince98's point about how impactful he is as an off-ball, help defender.

[LukaMVP]

Thybulle is an upgraded version of Bruce Bowen. dude could be excellent given the right role and his three point shooting would help us offensively as well. but he ain't worth a first in this market. dude isn't an offense initiator and can't beat even Jason Kidd one on one at offensive end. the first round should at least bring back someone with all round skills like Simons or Wiggins tbh.

[SleepingHero]

But, how often have you verified this with your eyeballs? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but the stats just don't reconcile (for me) the disconnect between this opinion and how it appears he is not coveted around the league. 

You might be right, and if the Mavs can get him, I hope you are! 

I'm just looking for more context on WHY the Mavs seem to be the one team that's always trying to get this dude. It just feels like if he were this good, he'd be involved in more discussions.

No you're not being antagonistic at all. I'm glad you asked. This past year I watched 10 1/2 Portland games. You can go and search the board about my offhand comments of me watching throughout the season.. I've also gone back and only watched the minutes where Thybulle was on the court 3 times, but I don't count that as a full game.

He is that level of defender. But I truly believe he is so undervalued because of his total lack of offensive game. It's really hard to hide Thybulle on that end of the court if you don't have the right guys. There were times when I watched last season where it felt like  Portland was playing 4 on 5 on that side of the court, because Thybulle just sat in the corner, never moved, and never touched the ball. 

But that doesn't really concern me when it comes to Dallas. Just like with DJJ where he finally found a team that could hide his offensive deficiencies and excel his strengths, I think Luka and Kyrie are enough of an offensive powerhouse that whatever lack of self creation/ability to score Thybulle doesn't have is minimized. Most teams (basically all?) can't provide the same offensive hubs that Dallas currently has. That's why Thybulle is a niche guy. But he provides a level of defense that dwarfs anyone we have on the roster currently. 

I also remember his 2nd year in Philly, when Ben Simmons wasn't a complete nothing, they had Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, and Joel was ramping up to an MVP candidate. Thybulle played the most minutes in Philly that season and no one argued that it was a bad idea. Because that team had enough offensive weapons to hide him. 

I don't think he's the end all be all answer for our needs this summer. But as a replacement for Green (who is a better offensive player for sure) he more than makes up for whatever scoring in defense.

[KillerLeft]

For what it's worth, here's a year old video I found of a pretty smart Portland guy analyzing what he liked/didn't like after Thybulle's initial stretch there. This is going into last summer, before the Dallas offer. 

EDIT: new link is cued up to the most relevant part of the video:

https://youtu.be/ZxZ2egeKPLA?si=yChGwEKOkDarklOQ&t=229

[F Gump]

I can get behind the idea of adding a sweetener, but I think Gump's notion of something smaller (he mentioned Lawson, not sure if that's enough, but I'd probably include a 2nd and not ask for a pick back) is much more in line with reality. I am out if the cost is a 2025 first, even if you're right.

To be clear, I don't have any feel if Lawson offers added value. But in the scenario I outlined, the Mavs would have to waive him anyhow if they kept him, because of lack of roster space, so maybe POR would see some benefit instead.

There are 13 slots filled in my hypothetical, with one remaining to be identified who gets added to fill the need for a scorer. If there's someone who fits that price range of what's left. they would have after signing DJJ.